Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Almost50]

As I've said, you can wipe your ass with your two scum reads,

town should expand lynchpool to 6

.

Show me the rule. It sure isn't in THIS game's special rules, and it sure as hell isn't in the site's general rules either. I tried to find it on the wiki and I couldn't find anything as such. So, where did you get that "town should expand lynchpool to 6"??

[Albert B. Rampage]

EJ is one of the two players scumreading Guilty with me. I won't attack them for that. Keeping to only two players you're willing to lynch is anti-town and scummy. Firstly, it absolves you of blame if it's a mislynch. Second, it stops town from creating bandwagons that force scum to put skin in the game to back up their talk. Third, it protects them from OMGUS from town who are upset they are being accused. There's nothing more upsetting than being falsely accused of something when you know you're innocent, and it's easy to create a bias against a player who is antagonistic to you but also town.

[davesaz]

EJ is one of the two players scumreading Guilty with me.

You might want to check your facts.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Still find it weird someone like Dave can overestimate my abilities, but yeah. I just wanted to keep that in everyone's mind, particularly since all the "Jigsaws" never really worked together perfectly, so having them seperate with the same goal made sense to me.

In other news:

VOTE: GuiltyLion so we can get off the Almost wagon. He'll solve himself later.

EJ voted GL right here.

Furthermore, as a town leader, on the offchance A50 is a vig, I definitely want EJ alive tonight. So I'm never going to vote EJ today, ever. Whether I find EJ suspicious or not doesn't even matter.

[davesaz]

You said EJ scumread GL. A vote without reasons is not a scumread. You can't tell from that post why EJ voted there.

Bullying people into doing your bidding lets scum hide among the sheep.

[Albert B. Rampage]

The way I see it, forcing scum to expand their lynchpool makes town think twice about voting them, corners them into a fixed position, and creates material for future analysis.

[Almost50]

(1) EJ is one of the two players scumreading Guilty with me. (2) I won't attack them for that. (3) Keeping to only two players you're willing to lynch is anti-town and scummy. (4) Firstly, it absolves you of blame if it's a mislynch. (5) Second, it stops town from creating bandwagons that force scum to put skin in the game to back up their talk. (6) Third, it protects them from OMGUS from town who are upset they are being accused. (7) (7) There's nothing more upsetting than being falsely accused of something when you know you're innocent, (8) and it's easy to create a bias against a player who is antagonistic to you but also town.

Note: Numbers are edited in by me.

(1)

In other news:

VOTE: GuiltyLion so we can get off the Almost wagon. He'll solve himself later.

That doesn't look like a scumread to me.

(2) I didn't build my case against him based on that, nor did I even factor it in. EJ is the TRAITOR and is signaling to the main team.

(3) I happen to disagree. After all, we can only lynch ONE player at a time.

(4) If we lynch on of my 2 SRs, how does it absolve me from anything if they flip town?

(5) I am not stopping anyone from doing anything. You overestimate my influence on the crowd.

(6) I don't even get this point. What does OMGUS have to do with this? And -more to it- how do you know the OMGUS'ed pkayer's alignment via the flip of the lynchee?

(7) I think there are a few other things, but that's irrelevant.

(8) Ah-ha. So if -I understand correct- this is a direct contradict with point #6 and is -in fact- supporting my argument. I mean, let's say you're town

for the sake of argument

. Now let's say you lynch me, and I say you are scum for it. What next? Do you want the town to lynch you next because I flipped green??

[Albert B. Rampage]

Why do you care about my answers if you already made up your mind that I'm scum? When I think someone is scum, I interact a lot less with them, and work on getting town consensus to vote them out. I wrote an article about it in the wiki a decade ago.

[Almost50]

Furthermore, as a town leader, on the offchance A50 is a vig, I definitely want EJ alive tonight. So I'm never going to vote EJ today, ever. Whether I find EJ suspicious or not doesn't even matter.

1- You are no town leader anymore than Joseph Stalin was.
2- What makes you think I'd be shooting him over you?

[Albert B. Rampage]

You want to confirm if he's a traitor so you can justify your Day 1 tunnel vision. Regardless, we should stop communicating with each other. Neither of us will change our minds.

[Almost50]

Why do you care about my answers if you already made up your mind that I'm scum? When I think someone is scum, I interact a lot less with them, and work on getting town consensus to vote them out. I wrote an article about it in the wiki a decade ago.

I don't have sufficient evidence you are scum though. I suspect you the most, but I can't get a judge to issue a subpoena for your arrest still.

[davesaz]

The way I see it, forcing scum to expand their lynchpool makes town think twice about voting them, corners them into a fixed position, and creates material for future analysis.

I'm going to just ignore A50's thing other than to say it's got me super confused.

Making town think twice about voting them (them being scum)? Isn't that a bad thing? We want town to be willing to vote scum when found, not make scum look more towny by blending in. Now if you were trying to say that forcing town into a big lynch pool will make town less likely to vote them (the town with big lynch pools), that's not such a bad idea and it lines up with things I sometimes try to do. Other than the dilution you get by helping scum blend in via prompting.

Cornering scum into a fixed position isn't a bad idea, but it also has the potential for cornering town into fixed positions too.

Creating material for further analysis I'm totally fine with. I like your professed goals, just not so much the methods.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Here's the list of players I will NOT lynch today: Pisskop, momo, drixx, BM, Hectic, MT, farside, EJ. I think today is a crapshoot as far lynching correctly because town is dysfunctional, and am mainly angling for Day 2 analysis. I need to get the building blocks of early, serious bandwagons that have a chance to tip over to a real lynch. Make of that what you will.

[Pine]

Pine, a50 and Blake.

What's your 6 players you are willing to lynch?

That's a godawful ridiculous question. Anyone with six scumreads at this stage of the game should have their heads examined, receive counseling, and then be banned from Mafia.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I didn't say scumreads.

[Pine]

Six scumreads is just BEGGING for scum to throw one or two buddies into the mix and then push four or five wagons. It's not rational or productive, and I refuse to indulge the question further.

PE: If you don't scumread someone but would be good lynching them, then you're a detriment to the game and should be a D1 policy lynch. This is not Russian Roulette, and we are not penguins shoving each other around on the ice floe until one of us falls in to confirm that there's a leopard seal down there.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Lynching anyone is better than no lynch, so you're wrong.

RVS is terrible because it doesn't create any content, deadline lynches are bad because you're under time pressure and risk no lynch.

The best thing to do is to bandwagon. If there's zero risk in scum getting hammered, scum won't feel any pressure.

That's my philosophy of mafia.

[Albert B. Rampage]

scum to throw one or two buddies into the mix and then push four or five wagons

This is exactly what players are calling me scum for doing. That I'm calling Vecna scummy without pushing him. I don't view this as legitimate evidence because there's no risk of ANYONE being lynched atm. If I was scum right now, I would just coast, keep my vote where it is, and be stubborn about changing my vote or expanding my list of suspects.

[Drixx]

I don’t think I - nope, I didn’t stutter.

I was just surprised.

So fun fact I looked at the game Drixx referenced and he did fight with a player that was scum. He voted and kept his vote on that player and from what I saw he did say a player was scum helping there buddy (I didn't see if the player was that players buddy) but all that said there are differences.
Most important was the case on Venca was built on something that didn't occur and Drixx hasn't really followed up pushing the scum read with anything really valid.
So it didn't change my view on Drixx in this game.

*looks at time left in day for game*

I can wait.

It's

almost

as if Drixx were a real live human being who changes over time, and he realized that how he went about things in that instance wasn't ideal and so he adjusted.

I mean ... that's one hypothesis anyway.

[Drixx]

@BB - no idea who you are. I generally don't go trying to work out who is an alt of whom unless someone is paying me the unpleasant kind of personal attention.

As far as it goes ... I've got what feels like a weak role this game, so if I was going to eat early rope to prove to some people that I'm way more nuanced than they give me credit for ... seems like an okay time to do it.

Someone (GL?) said that I play self centric. I thought about that for a bit. I suppose it's obviously true, so the question is why and whether that's good or bad. FFT.

[Vecna]

I feel sympathy towards Vecna this game, the way people have been reading his slot looks eerily similar to the games where I get heavily scumread as town.

Huh? I have the feeling im pretty widely townread?

People come to my aid in droves whenever someone as much as dares to say something bad towards me.

Its kind of creepy tbh.

Im pretty sure this is yet another one of those games where I die N1

[Vecna]

I've seen Vecna as scum, and been scum trying to frame him. I think this might be our first T+T game I can remember, and I'm kind of excited for it.

I still want you to call me a plebeian

/socket successful (but who pockets who *eery sound*)

[Vecna]

I got a townread on Pine out of the last few pages

a few people are asking about BM case - I feel his engagement with a lot of early game content was super light and perhaps it's due to his V/LA but he seemed to stop being involved as soon as the actual game picked up - this is a patten I see from scum often. At the time of me voting him I believed two of the other main bandwagons (Vecna and myself) were bad wagons, and I had just re-evaluated on danyBoy (the other, other wagon, which I had been pushing), so the BM votes felt to me like the best chance to follow along and find scum.

Funny enough Drixx is one of those slots for me that he was referring to as "you don't like going down that road unless you're sure", I def agree he's been overdramatic and making things more about himself than they actually are or need to be, but that's my experience of how he plays regardless of alignment, and I don't know if anything I've seen has felt like it moved the needle on him being more likely to be scum. It does feel weird that he's avoiding the BM wagon especially after I reversed my read on him, but I almost feel scum!Drixx would see it as easy to hop onto a town!BM by this point and not take that route, so either they're scum together or Drixx is townie for that.

MT bleeding town for me by this point. I'd also join a davesaz wagon.
p-edit: let's do it

VOTE: davesaz

Lion, youre a champ at putting quite a few of my feelings into words.

Im really waffling on Drixx. On the one hand, his response to me was very surface level bad. But Drixx is not a surface level player, and I could also see town act frustrated when others only react to the part of your wagon that did have a hole in it and ignore the rest (the rest that was pretty small though). If he really felt we were torpedoing his questioning of BM, then why not just tell us to fuck off and continue it? Portraying me as scummy instead and going on that crusade is still a bit weird. Its also how I caught his hydra in civ Mafia, although there his reaction was a lot more aggressive and over the top still.

Dave for me feels different, like (dont get triggered momo), every game I play with him these days. So different from 1-2+ years ago. I really do not think I can read him at all.

Xtomx is also really going down-down-down on my readslist. I thought this was gonna be a game where I could townread him, but there really was zero followup with substance.

[Vecna]

A50 and MT also posting elsewhere on site.

Good for you to notice. Did you also notice I posted in here less than two hours before your post??

Regardless of him missing that, I think actually going to look up players and venting about it is usually town indicative

this post is a perfect example of why Vecna is town btw

scum almost never has incentive to post this, especially cause I don't think he's really needed to buddy up to ABR

I think I agree with it, it's not impossible that scum!ABR does that but I do also think that's a decent indicator of town and it's making me less confident of an ABR scumread

ABR and I have a little history (the type of history drixx was talking about) and id fully expect him to want me dead in any game regardless of alignment.

I really dont feel like picking a fight with him, and I really do not trust my ability to read his slot

[Vecna]

Sigh.

I'm not saying don't wagon him. I'm saying to be careful about it. He has a history of reacting very poorly to pressure like this and I expect it to escalate with somebody like Albert B. Rampage at the helm.

I've fallen into that same trap multiple times in the past and it has yet to go in a positive direction for town.

Blake is such a towny motherfucker