Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Morning Tweet]

I agree that 0 scum in the 3 person, 2 scum in the 4, 1 scum in the 8, and 2 scum outside does sound like an elegant way to balance the neighbourhoods and scum.

Even so, I don't want to lean on that too heavily.

I'll have to do an evaluation of the 8 person hood. I strongly think Vault is town now. Vecna is probably town, but even if he's scum Vault should be town. Vecna i independently think is really towny though.

I dont actually remember who all is in the 8 person so ill have to work on looking closely at it later

[Battle Mage]

I agree that 0 scum in the 3 person, 2 scum in the 4, 1 scum in the 8, and 2 scum outside does sound like an elegant way to balance the neighbourhoods and scum.

Even so, I don't want to lean on that too heavily.

I'll have to do an evaluation of the 8 person hood. I strongly think Vault is town now. Vecna is probably town, but even if he's scum Vault should be town. Vecna i independently think is really towny though.

I dont actually remember who all is in the 8 person so ill have to work on looking closely at it later

Yep, luckily we don't need to decide all of that today. One step at a time is probably wise, but it's a blueprint which gives us something to start with - if it's wrong, no problem. I'm not inclined to think about the 8-person hood too much today (my earlier reads list included it), just because it isn't something we should be worrying about today or tomorrow.

Are you voting for ABR yet?

[Morning Tweet]

During Night 1, ABR suddenly became frantically active in the PT, having neglected it for a while before that (me and Pine were both stuck in traps at this point of course). He claimed his role and flavour, and also claimed that Xtoxm was a "mailman" (incidentally, not what he flipped), and then gave the story I repeated yesterday in order to make me suspect Xtoxm, which on reflection may not have been true.

So these are ABR's supposed lies, ya? And from what ABR told you, you came up with this:

Spoiler: BM's Xtoxm case

Last night Xtoxm shared his fakeclaim (postman) with ABR to try and protect himself, whilst simultaneously trying to kill me. Sent him a love-letter, basically telling ABR how big and strong he is, and promised to sheep him forever (admittedly, this is how ABR described it ). Firstly, there's no way in hell anyone town is doing that. Secondly, the likelihood of scum not putting a trap on ABR last night is reasonably slim given his profile (and I believe he's close-to-confirmed town), so deduce that the reason they didn't is because Xtoxm was going to target him (because if ABR was trapped he couldn't have received the letter). Thirdly, Xtoxm randomly asked on Day 1 to be investigated by different types of cop, and I assume only Jigsaw would be cop-proof, and would have a big incentive for an early clear investigation. Plus Jigsaw is probably not in a PT, so that gives a 1/6 chance anyway, and Xtoxm is clearly the scummiest player of the 6 on his own merit. Others have already made the case on his Day 1 voting pattern being dreadful, but also keeping himself quiet enough to avoid much interest. His only post today is a memorial for Elsa who was subjected to 2 traps last night. Hence we should Vote: Xtoxm

And then ABR responded with this:

All this is true and BM's case has merit, I won't deny it.

I can go for Xtoxm if everyone promises me you will lynch Blake if I die or I will endeavor to make you see Blake is scum for the rest of Day 2.

It sounds to me like all ABR did was tell you that Xtoxm sent him a love letter. Which we now know is true. And you made all the connections yourself. Now I dont blame you for the connections you drew, although I dont think ABR misfed you information here

[Morning Tweet]

ABR and BM have very similar posting styles so I realy don't get this hate. BM is playing the same as he did in day 1 and he loved him there.

VOTE: ABR

Your observation is correct and I agree, however, wheres the justification for the vote? Do you think that ABR being irrational towards BM after BM pressures him is a scumtell?

it reads to me that you're joining the wagon for barely surface level reasons. Yes ABR is acting different towards BM now. Why does that make ABR scum

[Battle Mage]

During Night 1, ABR suddenly became frantically active in the PT, having neglected it for a while before that (me and Pine were both stuck in traps at this point of course). He claimed his role and flavour, and also claimed that Xtoxm was a "mailman" (incidentally, not what he flipped), and then gave the story I repeated yesterday in order to make me suspect Xtoxm, which on reflection may not have been true.

So these are ABR's supposed lies, ya? And from what ABR told you, you came up with this:

Spoiler: BM's Xtoxm case

Last night Xtoxm shared his fakeclaim (postman) with ABR to try and protect himself, whilst simultaneously trying to kill me. Sent him a love-letter, basically telling ABR how big and strong he is, and promised to sheep him forever (admittedly, this is how ABR described it ). Firstly, there's no way in hell anyone town is doing that. Secondly, the likelihood of scum not putting a trap on ABR last night is reasonably slim given his profile (and I believe he's close-to-confirmed town), so deduce that the reason they didn't is because Xtoxm was going to target him (because if ABR was trapped he couldn't have received the letter). Thirdly, Xtoxm randomly asked on Day 1 to be investigated by different types of cop, and I assume only Jigsaw would be cop-proof, and would have a big incentive for an early clear investigation. Plus Jigsaw is probably not in a PT, so that gives a 1/6 chance anyway, and Xtoxm is clearly the scummiest player of the 6 on his own merit. Others have already made the case on his Day 1 voting pattern being dreadful, but also keeping himself quiet enough to avoid much interest. His only post today is a memorial for Elsa who was subjected to 2 traps last night. Hence we should Vote: Xtoxm

And then ABR responded with this:

All this is true and BM's case has merit, I won't deny it.

I can go for Xtoxm if everyone promises me you will lynch Blake if I die or I will endeavor to make you see Blake is scum for the rest of Day 2.

It sounds to me like all ABR did was tell you that Xtoxm sent him a love letter. Which we now know is true. And you made all the connections yourself. Now I dont blame you for the connections you drew, although I dont think ABR misfed you information here

That was 1 lie, my case set out lots of them. Including, as you note above, that he vehemently denied endorsing the Xtoxm case and supporting his lynch. He claimed Xtoxm was a mailman rather than an informant as he actually flipped (I don't actually know the difference, although the latter sounds more powerful, like he might have some knowledge?). Further we don't know if the contents of the letter are true - ABR-scum would be incentivised to make them up to make Xtoxm seem like scum. Or perhaps Xtoxm really did say the things he said in the letter, in which case lynching him was probably a blessing in disguise if he's planning to sheep scum for the whole game. I guess we'll never know. But I reckon ABR was clearly thrown by the fact I revealed his claim so soon, which would have given Xtoxm time to counter, but eh....we lynched too quick...

[Battle Mage]

ABR and BM have very similar posting styles so I realy don't get this hate. BM is playing the same as he did in day 1 and he loved him there.

VOTE: ABR

Your observation is correct and I agree, however, wheres the justification for the vote? Do you think that ABR being irrational towards BM after BM pressures him is a scumtell?

it reads to me that you're joining the wagon for barely surface level reasons. Yes ABR is acting different towards BM now. Why does that make ABR scum

Well if my reads are right, Danyboy and ABR are just bussing each other in panic right now.

But it could also be that Danyboy is town, in which case you can hardly blame him for voting for ABR now, and it doesn't really need too much explaining.

[Morning Tweet]

Mailman is a role that sends a letter to somebody else. Informant is a made up role name for this game. I think.

ABR wouldn't make up the contents of the letter. Xtoxm could have pointed out that he was lying.

[Battle Mage]

I agree that 0 scum in the 3 person, 2 scum in the 4, 1 scum in the 8, and 2 scum outside does sound like an elegant way to balance the neighbourhoods and scum.

Even so, I don't want to lean on that too heavily.

I'll have to do an evaluation of the 8 person hood. I strongly think Vault is town now. Vecna is probably town, but even if he's scum Vault should be town. Vecna i independently think is really towny though.

I dont actually remember who all is in the 8 person so ill have to work on looking closely at it later

If I die before being able to see this out, please finish the job for me. See my reads list for today.

[Battle Mage]

Mailman is a role that sends a letter to somebody else. Informant is a made up role name for this game. I think.

ABR wouldn't make up the contents of the letter. Xtoxm could have pointed out that he was lying.

Perhaps, although:

A. I would have probably believed ABR over Xtoxm, and ABR would know that. And as evident today, even something like that doesn't necessarily result in a straightforward follow-up lynch.
B. ABR wasn't expecting me to immediately gun for Xtoxm, I think it was planted to be more of a slowburn. I genuinely believe he wanted to out more power roles yesterday rather than lynching Xtoxm so quick, but he couldn't help himself.

It doesn't matter anyway really!

[Morning Tweet]

I think the biggest part of your case that interests me is how if Amanda Young is in this game, she'd need to be in the Survivor hood. If momo's flip is any indication, anyway. His real role (Logan) and his fake role (Simone) were both survivors.

AH. I just realized. Amanda isnt a Jigsaw survivor. Not in the way your hood implies it. Your hood is a scene from Saw 3D. It's a bunch of people sitting in chairs at a church in a kind of support group.

https://sawfilms.fandom.com/wiki/Jigsaw_Survivor_Group

Logan Nelson is not a jigsaw survivor as described by your hood. Simone is.

BM, are you on this list of characters?

Spoiler:

Bobby Dagen
Simone
Mallick
Emily
Brad
Ryan
Tara Abbott
Lawrence Gordon
Addy
Sidney

If you are not, then the flavour is not perfectly linked. Thereby meaning ABR's claim (Corlett Denlon) not being linked doesnt matter.

[Morning Tweet]

Momo's role was: Logan Nelson, a "Jigsaw Survivor" aligned with Jigsaw's Acolytes

Logan Nelson was not a Jigsaw Survivor (as described in Saw 3D). This means scum can masquerade as a character in any other hood. You cannot link the flavour of the acolytes up with the hood. Only possibly their fakeclaims, since Simone IS a jigsaw survivor in Saw 3D.

[Battle Mage]

I think the biggest part of your case that interests me is how if Amanda Young is in this game, she'd need to be in the Survivor hood. If momo's flip is any indication, anyway. His real role (Logan) and his fake role (Simone) were both survivors.

AH. I just realized. Amanda isnt a Jigsaw survivor. Not in the way your hood implies it. Your hood is a scene from Saw 3D. It's a bunch of people sitting in chairs at a church in a kind of support group.

https://sawfilms.fandom.com/wiki/Jigsaw_Survivor_Group

Logan Nelson is not a jigsaw survivor as described by your hood. Simone is.

BM, are you on this list of characters?

Spoiler:

Bobby Dagen
Simone
Mallick
Emily
Brad
Ryan
Tara Abbott
Lawrence Gordon
Addy
Sidney

If you are not, then the flavour is not perfectly linked. Thereby meaning ABR's claim (Corlett Denlon) not being linked doesnt matter.

2 observations:

1. Lawrence Gordon is on this list, and as you and I both acknowledged, is likely to be in this game as scum.
2. ABR's fakeclaim Corbett Denlon is not in this group.
3. Pine's FBI character is also not in this list.

So this couldn't be what the Mod was thinking of, nor would it indicate ABR is any less likely to be scum. Although for what it's worth, my character

is

on that list.

[Morning Tweet]

Pine's character is Lindsey Perez, a Jigsaw Survivor FBI Agent.

Perez was injured by a jigsaw trap while investigating a crime scene. She was never tested by jigsaw, nor was she in the support grpup, but she is a member of the survivor PT.

This kind of leniency means that Corlett Denlon could feasibly be put in the Survivor PT as well. You dont even have to be tested by Jigsaw to be put in the Jigsaw survivor PT.

Corlett was kidnapped by Jigsaw and that is all. Perez was injured at a jigsaw crime scene and that is all. Neither fit with the saw 3d flavour. The claim is possible.

[Battle Mage]

Momo's role was: Logan Nelson, a "Jigsaw Survivor" aligned with Jigsaw's Acolytes

Logan Nelson was not a Jigsaw Survivor (as described in Saw 3D). This means scum can masquerade as a character in any other hood. You cannot link the flavour of the acolytes up with the hood. Only possibly their fakeclaims, since Simone IS a jigsaw survivor in Saw 3D.

As per my previous post, the Jigsaw Survivor group in Saw 3D cannot be the same as the hood in this game, given Pine's flip. And logically there's no reason it should be, given there was no FBI or Cop group with all those characters at the same time in the franchise, although it was definitely worth exploring!

Logan Nelson was a Jigsaw Survivor, just not in Saw 3D. It looks like the characters across this game can be in any of the movies and stuff.

[Morning Tweet]

Pine told me himself that your PT is themed like a support group.

[Morning Tweet]

It not encompassing Perez proves to me that Corbett is a feasible claim. Even if it werent a support group, Perez never played a Jigsaw game. Calling her a survivor is a stretch. Just like calling Corbett one is a stretch.

[Battle Mage]

Pine's character is Lindsey Perez, a Jigsaw Survivor FBI Agent.

Perez was injured by a jigsaw trap while investigating a crime scene. She was never tested by jigsaw, nor was she in the support grpup, but she is a member of the survivor PT.

This kind of leniency means that Corlett Denlon could feasibly be put in the Survivor PT as well. You dont even have to be tested by Jigsaw to be put in the Jigsaw survivor PT.

Corlett was kidnapped by Jigsaw and that is all. Perez was injured at a jigsaw crime scene and that is all. Neither fit with the saw 3d flavour. The claim is possible.

Hmm that's interesting, and a fair point. Although the leniency of being a survivor because you survived a trap (although not as part of a test) is a significantly lower level of leniency than Corbett who didn't even come into contact with a trap at any point. Corbett was held as a hostage, but never played a game or got hurt at all I think? And Corbett being a slightly less implausible claim doesn't change the fact that I think there's 2 scum in my hood, especially given your reveal that the Dr was also a survivor.

[Battle Mage]

It not encompassing Perez proves to me that Corbett is a feasible claim. Even if it werent a support group, Perez never played a Jigsaw game. Calling her a survivor is a stretch. Just like calling Corbett one is a stretch.

As per previous post, I agree to a point, but they aren't a stretch to the same degree. Perez got hurt by, but survived a trap, Corbett never faced a trap. And in any case, far more likely that Amanda or the Dr are in the hood - otherwise where would they go flavour-wise? All not in PTs?

[Battle Mage]

Pine told me himself that your PT is themed like a support group.

Yep, but as above the characters in it are not all the same as the Jigsaw 3d version you referenced in that list.

[Morning Tweet]

It not encompassing Perez proves to me that Corbett is a feasible claim. Even if it werent a support group, Perez never played a Jigsaw game. Calling her a survivor is a stretch. Just like calling Corbett one is a stretch.

As per previous post, I agree to a point, but they aren't a stretch to the same degree. Perez got hurt by, but survived a trap, Corbett never faced a trap. And in any case, far more likely that Amanda or the Dr are in the hood - otherwise where would they go flavour-wise? All not in PTs?

I don't think the Acolytes are locked into hoods via the hood's flavour.

Momo would have been Doctor Gordon, not Logan Nelson.

[Battle Mage]

It not encompassing Perez proves to me that Corbett is a feasible claim. Even if it werent a support group, Perez never played a Jigsaw game. Calling her a survivor is a stretch. Just like calling Corbett one is a stretch.

I think the bottom line is, whether Corbett is a massive stretch as a claim is irrelevant given scum have fakeclaims. It's really a question of whether she is more likely to be in the game than say Amanda Young or Doctor Gordon. And I also don't think she features alongside both her parents here.

[Battle Mage]

It not encompassing Perez proves to me that Corbett is a feasible claim. Even if it werent a support group, Perez never played a Jigsaw game. Calling her a survivor is a stretch. Just like calling Corbett one is a stretch.

As per previous post, I agree to a point, but they aren't a stretch to the same degree. Perez got hurt by, but survived a trap, Corbett never faced a trap. And in any case, far more likely that Amanda or the Dr are in the hood - otherwise where would they go flavour-wise? All not in PTs?

I don't think the Acolytes are locked into hoods via the hood's flavour.

Momo would have been Doctor Gordon, not Logan Nelson.

I disagree, based on everything you've said above. Logan Nelson was a survivor, in exactly the same way as Pine's character. Neither were in that support group in the movie. So the support group in Saw 3D is not the defining factor for being a Jigsaw survivor, it's whether you literally were a Jigsaw survivor. It's basically not the same reality as the movie.

I'd believe your theory if, say, Doctor Gordon shows up in the FBI hood. But I think it's unlikely, and we've seen no evidence so far of the character and hood flavour not aligning.

[Morning Tweet]

If the members of your hood are not all Jigsaw survivors (Perez confirmed not really to be), then why would the scumteam have to obey the neighbourhoods? I think Logan is already an example of scum not having to obey it.

You are right that Corbett is irrelevant now. But it's not her vs. Amanda. Amanda could be in any PT. Not just the survivor one. thats what I'm getting at.

Imagine this: Amanda's role could be: You are Amanda Young, a "FBI Member" aligned with Jigsaw's Acolytes

Then below that, they are given a FBI fakeclaim.

This is what I think happened in momo/Logan's case.

[GeorgeBailey]

Sorry for the non-existent D2. I'm catching up, and I want to lynch Idany, because I still think he's still a good lynch today.

Lynched:

momo

momo (11) - Hectic, farside22, Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, Albert B. Rampage, Elsa Jay, Blake Belladonna, Almost50, Battle Mage, xtoxm, BBmolla

To re-iterate my TR:

The first three votes on here is pretty much my town-core (obviously excluding the dead people). I feel like the wagon-starters are the most likely to be town on wagons that flip scum.

xtoxm

-

xtoxm (9) - Battle Mage, farside22, Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, BBmolla, Almost50, Gamma Emerald, pisskop, Albert B. Rampage

This wagon is interesting. There's obviously a bunch of scum on here, but I townread most of the people on the wagon (dead towns are a given), by PoE, scum would be: Pisskop, Gamma, and BB.

Of the three, I think this was a sus vote due to lack of progression:

Agreed btw

VOTE: Xtotm

Besides that, I still think idany has a better chance of flipping scum.

VOTE: Idanyboy

iDanyboy (4) - Battle Mage, momo, BBmolla, Albert B. Rampage

This is probably the only thing psyching me out right now. This is might be distancing though. Momo and Idany both switched to the Hectic wagon when it got hot, so I can see the partnering.

ABR and BM have very similar posting styles so I realy don't get this hate. BM is playing the same as he did in day 1 and he loved him there.

VOTE: ABR

This vote is also kinda awful. Barely commenting on ABR, and framing it like the choice is between BM and ABR. They can be both Town. Which is what I think.

Right now, I don't see BM or ABR flipping scum. BM was actively spearheading the momo lynch, and ABR voted at a time when the wagon was still small. I don't see scum bussing early when there's a possibility of other wagons. I think that if ABR was scum, he would have joined the Elsa wagon when it was large. He was also didn't want Elsa to be lynched that day.

Also, this is a weaker meta read, but before this game I actually sorta knew about ABR from the wiki. I read up on this one guide he made (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=12552) which helped immensely in a game I recently played (https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=82497). He seems to be playing a lot like how he talked about in the guide, which he describes as starting pro-town discussions.

[Battle Mage]

The other thing to note is, Logan Nelson was flipped as a "Jigsaw Survivor". Because his identity was linked to his hood, and the Mod deemed him to be a Jigsaw Survivor. So I don't think you'll see Amanda Young flipping in the 8-person cop hood as "drug addict hanging out at the police HQ". Is it possible? Yes. Is there any reason to believe it? No.