Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Alisae]

yeah its called a Cop.

[TemporalLich]

yeah its called a Cop.

Cop gets Town/Not Town (and can be fooled by a Miller), Alignment Cop gets Town/Mafia/Werewolf/Serial Killer (and can't be fooled by a Miller)

[Alisae]

A. Implo most likely will not want to have a role that nullifies the Miller. He doesn't want Godfathers in queue but wants Millers and he talked about why somewhere in this thread.
B. I'm pretty sure in normal games Cops get Town or Mafia and that only comes up in Multiball games but even then I still think its Town or Mafia but not 100% on this.

[Ircher]

I'd be very against including that mainly because it seems more like a theme role tbh. Why does town need to distinguish between types of scum?

[TemporalLich]

A. Implo most likely will not want to have a role that nullifies the Miller. He doesn't want Godfathers in queue but wants Millers and he talked about why somewhere in this thread.
B. I'm pretty sure in normal games Cops get Town or Mafia and that only comes up in Multiball games but even then I still think its Town or Mafia but not 100% on this.

I ISOed implosion and found out Miller is allowed because Miller can claim Miller and it wouldn't detract from Cop being a reliable investigative.

Since an Alignment Cop can suss out the difference between a Miller claiming Miller and a scum claiming Miller it might be distinct enough to be worth considering outside the daydream of the greylist coming back, as non-Large normals must be standard alignment.

Alignment Cop being a perfect investigative is obviously very powerful though, so I feel balancing might be the reason Alignment Cop isn't normal.

The wiki tells me Cop is Town/Not Town

[TemporalLich]

If Miller were gone Alignment Cop would definitely be too similar for people to want it outside the greylist though.

[Isis]

I still want millers gone because I don't want to join a normal game and participate in Day 1 modwifom, but that might be the same thing that finds me in open queue more often compared to normal queue anyway so I'm not the right person to poll etc
It sounds like Alignment Cop would function like a "miller miller" wrapping around to the next level of D! modwifom, do you investigate the miller claim N1? Or do you not investigate the setup's only miller claim and waste such power because that seems to indicate it's a trueclaim in a game of this size? What if there are two miller claims?
People who like this stuff should want that, people who mistakenly see it as a healthy way to "balance" cops should look use it as argument ad absurdum to try come around to my view. Maybe. Please. (From what I know of TL I think he's probably very likely the first group.)

Without millers I'm having trouble seeing what you're getting from it, since a guilty from any scumteam is still "we should lynch that". It could possibly create more gamestates with a deliberately permitted-to-live SK but I think those gamestates are generally regarded as less fun than the alternative.

[implosion]

For those interested, I just released a small number of completed reviews from june-august last year, that can be found here. I will be releasing more over probably the next couple days, and if not that then the next week - if you have a review PT for a game you ran/had reviewed that you don't want released for some reason, let me know.

I haven't replied to anything here in a while, and meant to do another round of whitelisting roles a while ago (as I claimed... half a year ago), but have been far sidetracked by life - I should have time to at some point soon, once I can catch up on releasing reviews and other RL stuff I've fallen behind on. To answer a random assortment of questions though:

Out of curiosity, who has final say in creating new Normal roles?

I have final say; I generally suggest things to/take suggestions from NRG members, look at collective feedback on what people think would be a good or bad idea, and base things on that feedback.

@Implo, is it possible you can get the roles listed on the wiki to be ordered alphabetically

It appears I actually never realized that they were organized alphabetically since they're alphabetical except for all the newer stuff I've appended. Just fixed it.

Is it possible that Mafiascum could make a new section where we can play Normal games BUT trial new roles and modifiers to see how they interact, and if they could be whitelisted?

I don't think a new section is needed for this; the theme queues serve this need. It's perfectly acceptable to run a theme game that is "normal-ish, but possibly not strictly to the letter". This has indeed been done plenty, most notably (at least off the top of my head) with Booneytoonz (which has also already been mentioned) since Boonskiies decided the new normal guidelines were too restrictive for what he was going for.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I still want millers gone because I don't want to join a normal game and participate in Day 1 modwifom, but that might be the same thing that finds me in open queue more often compared to normal queue anyway so I'm not the right person to poll etc
It sounds like Alignment Cop would function like a "miller miller" wrapping around to the next level of D! modwifom, do you investigate the miller claim N1? Or do you not investigate the setup's only miller claim and waste such power because that seems to indicate it's a trueclaim in a game of this size? What if there are two miller claims?
People who like this stuff should want that, people who mistakenly see it as a healthy way to "balance" cops should look use it as argument ad absurdum to try come around to my view. Maybe. Please. (From what I know of TL I think he's probably very likely the first group.)

Without millers I'm having trouble seeing what you're getting from it, since a guilty from any scumteam is still "we should lynch that". It could possibly create more gamestates with a deliberately permitted-to-live SK but I think those gamestates are generally regarded as less fun than the alternative.

I barely see any cops nowadays anyways.

[implosion]

I will be releasing more over probably the next couple days, and if not that then the next week

I have apparently lied about this timeline because I am more behind on schoolwork than I thought I was - alas, I have not forgotten, and I will get to it this week.

[implosion]

Alright, new batch has been released! There were 17 normal reviews and 15 pre-designed setups just released, along with the other normal reviews I released 2 weeks ago. If you want to see how reviews and setup design have been going, please feel free to peruse! There's also hopefully a good amount of inspiration there if you're looking to design your own setup, and it's a good window into the current meta/how the NRG currently looks at balance.

If I missed a topic for a game that you ran or know of that's completed and should be released, shoot me a PM. If I screwed up and released something I shouldn't have, also shoot me a PM (I believe I was being careful and double checking, but it's *possible* something slipped through).

[Wake1]

Has the Neighborhood Cop been considered/added yet?

It'd be a great addition to Normal Games.

[callforjudgement]

Personal PT Cop is very close (the only difference is that it gets a positive on Masons too).

I'm not sure it has much design utility, though.

[Isis]

Town Complex Doctor
Town Impersonal PT Cop
5 VT
1 Mafia Tracker
1 Mafia Fruit Vendor

[Hectic]

/in to Mod

Game Name:

 Hectic's Normal Mafia Game

Game Type:

Normal

Game Size:

Normal
       

Co/Backup Mod:

Hoctic

Reviewed By:

Hectac
       

Hydrae Allowed?:

Compulsory

Other Restrictions?:

No Bad Players

Deadlines?:

None

Is it possible your game has any of the following bastard roles or mechanics?

No, other than a jester, a few moderator lies, and 2 very small cults. That's it though.
       

Description:

Every player will be some kind of cop so that everyone can have a PR and have fun! All mafia will be millers.

[Nancy Drew 39]

/in to Mod

Game Name:

 Hectic's Normal Mafia Game

Game Type:

Normal

Game Size:

Normal
       

Co/Backup Mod:

Hoctic

Reviewed By:

Hectac
       

Hydrae Allowed?:

Compulsory

Other Restrictions?:

No Bad Players

Deadlines?:

None

Is it possible your game has any of the following bastard roles or mechanics?

No, other than a jester, a few moderator lies, and 2 very small cults. That's it though.
       

Description:

Every player will be some kind of cop so that everyone can have a PR and have fun! All mafia will be millers.

What no unannounced mid-game alignment changes? . I am sincerely disappointed.

[callforjudgement]

Who knows? If there were, they wouldn't be visible in the signup post, because then they wouldn't be unannounced.

[Wake1]

Personal PT Cop is very close (the only difference is that it gets a positive on Masons too).

I'm not sure it has much design utility, though.

Could the Neighborhood Cop please be added?

The weaker the PR, the better it is for the game. I'd rather see a bunch of different watered-down PRs added to give people more, different slivers of information.

[Umlaut]

I don't know if this is still the place to suggest roles that could be normal, but I feel there's a place for a role that targets another player and is informed only of whether their action successfully took place or not -- a bit like a visitor except that they are told whether they successfully visited. (I'm open to ideas on what this ought to be called.)

[Isis]

Fruit Customer

[Dunnstral]

Fruit

Customer

Connoisseur

[Umlaut]

Actually, I think I like Tagger. With results of form "You tagged [player]" or "You failed to tag [player]".

[Isis]

Normal queue role names convey what the role actually does in a way that minimizes flavor and aesthetics and maximizes understanding. Even to the point of roles having names like rolecop and pt cop. Tagger is more aesthetically pleasing but Fruit Customer borrows terminology from a similar role to grant understanding, similar to babysitter/hider.
I don't think redirection is allowed in normal queue right now but if that was a factor at play it'd be preferable not put the target's name in the result PM if detecting redirection isn't the point of the role.

[TemporalLich]

Normal queue role names convey what the role actually does in a way that minimizes flavor and aesthetics and maximizes understanding. Even to the point of roles having names like rolecop and pt cop. Tagger is more aesthetically pleasing but Fruit Customer borrows terminology from a similar role to grant understanding, similar to babysitter/hider.
I don't think redirection is allowed in normal queue right now but if that was a factor at play it'd be preferable not put the target's name in the result PM if detecting redirection isn't the point of the role.

I'd say the target's name should be in the Tagger's results because Tagger is an investigative role (namely, the null investigative role) and redirection should

never

act like a pseudo-Tailor in Normal games.

Though if you get a No Result, those likely will be generic.

That being said I don't think redirection is Normal regardless of investigative role concerns, namely because it means your target may not be your target and it can result in strange Night Action choices.

[Isis]

It's not investigative though. You're not learning anything about the person you targeted at all.
If you put conspiracy theorist or FBI or whatever alien investigative is called into normal games but didn't actually add aliens I guess it would be identical to this role. But to categorize it as an investigative occurrence you should at least get some meaningless information.