Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[midwaybear]

Am I wrong in assuming there should be some sort of protective role with a Strongman? Not sure why Blair wasn't protected unless all we have is a JK.

This is actually a good point. Did not think of that.

[mavsfan41]

so you townread some of the people in your PoE? why has everyone else been excluded?

This meant for me? Which players are you specifically talking about!

[mavsfan41]

I’m TR’ing VP Baltar and Dunnstral. But as far as I’m concerned, they could still be scum. The players I’ve excluded I don’t believe can be scum.

[Quick]

Should I be able to get that from the list you posted?

No. You would have to know my stance as a whole on those two. I have "conflicting reads" based on analyzing things from different perspectives.

[midwaybear]

I’m TR’ing VP Baltar and Dunnstral. But as far as I’m concerned, they could still be scum. The players I’ve excluded I don’t believe can be scum.

I get r2r, but why is votato cleared. IIRC you mentioned that your view of him was inconsistent, so why are you confident that he can’t be scum?

[Quick]

Looking at Quick and puppy to vote mavs with me.
VOTE: mavsfan

I still have mav as fairly Null based on play alone. I would rather go midway and I really don't like that the wagon switched on between you and mav. That just gives me bad vibes honestly.

[Quick]

I’m TR’ing VP Baltar and Dunnstral. But as far as I’m concerned, they could still be scum. The players I’ve excluded I don’t believe can be scum.

Where is your midway read? And why is VP Town for you here? Anything he has written you think he can't fake?

[Quick]

Midway is looking better and I kinda hate mav's reads... Might go that way if it's between Hellbooks and mav here. Still, wouldn't mind a wagon on Midway.

@votato, how are you feeling about midway lately?

[hellbooks]

Also, I'm scumreading mavsfan at this point. there's a particular reactiveness feel to his presence, maybe I'm getting the sense he's comfortable to appear rational while not doing much. would be interested to see what other people have picked up here. he's perfectly situated in the "danger zone".

Can you point me to some examples that struck you on reading the game of why you think he is not doing much?

on day one, i got the consistent sense from his posts that he wasn't pushing anyone. He would state reasons for reads and then vote, and then let them sit there. It felt like he was performing scumhunting. this would certainly be excusable due to people's personality or playstyle. However, he has missed the mark even more on day 2 and day 3, ignoring the gamma wagon in favor of the ready2rock counter wagon. now today he went after midwaybear, who i think has a high chance to be an easy mislynch target. now, he sweats at the momentum i'm trying to start on lynching him, and comes up with a flimsy reason to join a counter wagon on me (namely, that i haven't done much, but this is only after i've had the chance to make one post).

gamma: 25 posts
blair: 214 posts

and yet i still feel like gamma has had a more significant positive impact on the game.

This really rubs me the wrong way, given that it was at a time when Blair was having a hard time getting the wagon going.
not to keep pressing this point. but this is what i'm talking about with mavsfan. when someone is making sparse but seemingly well thought out posts, they are the type of person who is self conscious. they want to make each post count but don't have the energy to keep it up. Of course this trait comes from all walks of life. But I think it comes from scum very often. Add to that the fact that mavs and gamma have terrible lack of interaction and mavs terrible pushes. This is the best choice for a wagon today.

I still have mav as fairly Null based on play alone. I would rather go midway and I really don't like that the wagon switched on between you and mav. That just gives me bad vibes honestly.

I'll 1v1 mavs right now. At least for the time being. however i'll acknowledge that midwaybear is a good wagon. Like I said, i think there's a high chance he's a distraction angle that scum is pushing right now. But theres nothing particularly town about his play i'll give you that.

[hellbooks]

This really rubs me the wrong way, given that it was at a time when Blair was having a hard time getting the wagon going.

sorry, I messed up the quotes. This sentence was from ready2rock's earlier post

[mavsfan41]

@midway bear: Votato I truly believe is town and locked into that. Looking at his posts, I think he’s town trying to figure things out. His intentions do seem pure even if it’s just lurkers he’s pushing. He’s not pushing them in bad faith imo.

[Quick]

VOTE: ready2rock

I can actually buy the votecount shenanigans as being a genuine mistake given that I don't really see the point of doing it as scum, but him saying he thinks that votato looked bad for misinterpreting something while voting VPB (for voting people over minor things if I remember correctly) while VPB is voting votato for the exact reason he mentioned feels pretty gross.
I usually give townpoints in my head to people town or scumreading people for the same reasons I am if they post about it before I get to it, and him mentioning votato feeling bad for that and then voting VPB feels like an excuse for a vote instead of an honest reason to think VPB is scum.

@ready - What makes you think Blair vs Quick is TvT? I know Puppy mentioned a reason for it earlier but do you agree with what he said or do you have your own for it?

It's partially out of my reads of them being town before they started their back and forth, then when they started their discussion with each other the way they were pushing each other felt genuine on both ends

why were you reading them both as TvT beforehand then?

Hey r2r, you didn't respond to this earlier - could you answer it for me?

@ready - What makes you think Blair vs Quick is TvT? I know Puppy mentioned a reason for it earlier but do you agree with what he said or do you have your own for it?

It's partially out of my reads of them being town before they started their back and forth, then when they started their discussion with each other the way they were pushing each other felt genuine on both ends

why were you reading them both as TvT beforehand then?

Also I'm liking mav's recent posts, esp. his #687 feels like a genuine thought process from him[/quote]

I read over a decent chunk of the game yesterday so have some thoughts

I really dislike r2r's chunk of posts here: 637, 702, 781
637 I could definitely see a scum making as a way get away with 'oh yeah I was also scumreading them but it was minor and now that you've pointed out more I'll happily join you on this person trying to lynch me', and 702 tries to make him look like he's trying to get more info out of the wagon when I suspect he'd know that VPB was strongly scumreading him from VPB's #535 through #574 and then uses that in #782 as another reason to vote NPOM.

I still don't like his earlier jumping on of Quick v Blair being TvT (this is the thing that I thought NPOM might have voted r2r for originally along with the VPB wagon stuff, though his response after Blair and I talking about his reason for voting r2r for a bit showed that it almost definitely wasn't the case) and then explaining it with him thinking that they were town separately before that and their pushing each other felt genuine without saying why he was townreading them both before that. It felt more like him using their argument as an easy reason to read them both as town and dismiss their arguing than him really having pre-existing reads on both of them, and I still don't see why he has Blair as one of his top town reads.

If he is scum I also think Blair makes a lot of sense as his partner - I think r2r never really gave a good reason to townread Blair, she hopped off of r2r to vote NPOM after saying the below earlier, she had what I saw as her two previous scumreads (quick and r2r) on the wagon, AND she dismissed Puppy's post voting r2r in 754.

No, I think R2R lied about the vote count for some unknowable reason. I pretty plainly said I'd be okay with lynching him today if I can't have Quick.

But your meta argument is terrible.

VOTE: ready2rock

All these tend to indicate to me that R2R isn't SvS with Gamma. Also worth noting is that the last post here really looks like this is a real case with intent to lynch R2R.

It's for this reason that I am clearing R2R from being Scum..

HOWEVER... R2R had very poor follow though with Gamma which could mean they are teamed.

[VP Baltar]

unvote

This I flat out don't like, really comes off as trying to prod your buddy to strengthen their case while trying to come across as being skeptical of it.

Seems like he could just do this in a private thread if the scum have day talk, couldn't he?

Am I wrong in assuming there should be some sort of protective role with a Strongman? Not sure why Blair wasn't protected unless all we have is a JK.

This is actually a good point. Did not think of that.

new question to you, midway. You seem pretty new to mafia, so please explain to me when you started to focus on "tonereads" as you call them. You've mentioned it 8 times or so in the few posts you've had and it got me curious what is your logic behind this and when did you decide to make that part of your scumhunting?

[midwaybear]

Idk to be honest because I heard tonereads are generally unreliable. There's not really any logic, but it's more like:does this sound more townie or scummy? I toneread Quick once and I'm happy about that. It's not how I mainly try to scumhunt though.

[mavsfan41]

@Quick: nice of you to come around on R2R, but didn’t I say how R2R is totes town? (Checks my own iso, sees post 1272...) yes, yes I did. Also, in 1382, you say you hate my reads. Which ones in particular?

[CantHateAPuppy]

Am I wrong in assuming there should be some sort of protective role with a Strongman? Not sure why Blair wasn't protected unless all we have is a JK.

This is actually a good point. Did not think of that.

i had the same thought, but even a JK on a investigative role would be a stopped kill and a cleared town and better than the alternative. Don't want to poison the well here against future claims, but someone is going to have some explaining to do.

[CantHateAPuppy]

For various reasons, I think scum is EXCLUSIVELY within these spots:
Dunnstral
Hellbrooks
VP Baltar
puppy
Quick

why do u not have votato as possible scum? why not r2r? And why is VP potential scum? I find the more I read him the more I like him, he may be my top townread for the moment. though i'm more interested in why u've excluded other slots than why you've included these ones

[Quick]

For various reasons, I think scum is EXCLUSIVELY within these spots:
Dunnstral
Hellbrooks
VP Baltar
puppy
Quick

@Mav, don't get this list at all and feel it needs to be unpacked badly.

[VP Baltar]

Idk to be honest because I heard tonereads are generally unreliable. There's not really any logic, but it's more like:does this sound more townie or scummy? I toneread Quick once and I'm happy about that. It's not how I mainly try to scumhunt though.

I guess I just noticed you mentioned it alot. And when I looked back at some of your games, I didn't see you talk about it nearly as much (though you briefly mentioned it as either alignment.)

Have you successfully read Quick as either alignment or only as town?

Also, you've never played with me, and yet you're applying this tone read approach to me. How is that reliable?

[midwaybear]

only as town. I didn't say it was reliable, in fact I said it is pretty unreliable. However, it worked with quick and I never played with him either.
For me, scum is in votato, hellbooks, VPB, and mavs.

[Quick]

Idk to be honest because I heard tonereads are generally unreliable. There's not really any logic, but it's more like:does this sound more townie or scummy? I toneread Quick once and I'm happy about that. It's not how I mainly try to scumhunt though.

I guess I just noticed you mentioned it alot. And when I looked back at some of your games, I didn't see you talk about it nearly as much (though you briefly mentioned it as either alignment.)

Have you successfully read Quick as either alignment or only as town?

Also, you've never played with me, and yet you're applying this tone read approach to me. How is that reliable?

Keep in mind this is midways like less than 10th Forum Mafia game IIRC. So it's natural he has no idea what he is doing.

[midwaybear]

yeah this is my 6th or 7th game depending on how you want to look at it. I hope I don't look like a total noob though

[Dunnstral]

but i suppose i could go for a dunnstral wagon.

He's doing the same thing again.

[Dunnstral]

For various reasons, I think scum is EXCLUSIVELY within these spots:
Dunnstral
Hellbrooks
VP Baltar
puppy
Quick

Dunnstral

he was the first to hop onto the Gamma lynch right after Blair. I don’t think he has the grapes to bus his partner that early, but I’m not sure. So for now, he’s town in my book.

VP Baltar

he seems to actually be helping town out and trying to figure things out. Town read here. (And for what it’s worth, early game he asked for what abbreviations meant where if he was in a private chat, wouldn’t have done that? Sure, flimsy, but no reason real good reason why I think he’s scum).

As for the others....

Quick

he is almost impossible to read. He’s done massively scummy things but also pro town. His case on R2R I think is super hard to fake.

Puppy

he appeared to double down sorta on Gamma AFTER the hammer. I read Gamma as town as well, so I could see this.

And.....

hellbrooks

I think puppy/Quick, one is scum. I can’t see them both being scum. Hellbrooks of the Ayers I’ve narrowed down strikes me as most likely scum. He hasn’t offered much.

VOTE: hellbrooks

Why am I in your list of scum spots if I'm town in your book?

[midwaybear]

he townreads you, but you can still possibly be scum in his PoE