Newbie 2007: Air [game over!]

[Quick]

The above quote was available in #661 which is where I grabbed it from.

At this point, I am trying to gauge what level Poyzin plays on.

And they refuse to tell me.

Do you not hear yourself speak? I can't even answer this question because I'm just playing mafia. There are no "levels" or anything, and the way I play is very much apparent through

me actually playing

. This might sound like circular logic because it is circular logic. Do I say that I'm playing at a low level? A high level? Levels are subjective anyway, so Quick would just say that I'm playing at a low level as an excuse to not realize the fault in their tunnel and blame me for him being wrong.

Okay, that's not what I asked. You must have sever brain damage from lying so much.

[Poyzin]

In post 685, Poyzin wrote:
Because your jumping of your rationale from scum to town within the matter of two posts with no plausible explanation at the time was FAR more problematic in my eyes, and deserved to be addressed first. Also, because you just got done saying that I was town for "being active", I knew you wouldn't be ignorant enough to say it again, and it was pretty clearly a reaction test. So, I decided it wasn't worth my time to say the same thing twice and decided to not give you the satisfaction of a response.


Why didn't you say this earlier?

I did. But you "puked". So obviously you didn't actually read the whole thing.

Spoiler:
If you're curious to why I remained silent to a chunk of your early game comments, I decided to not answer because I didn't want to give you the satisfaction of a response. The reason being is that you were so obviously baiting, and none of your questions were actually that helpful, because anything I could tell you could so easily be replicated by scum, so there would be no point in responding to you at all.

Your right. So why are you Town?

That's not my job to explain.

[Poyzin]

Okay, that's not what I asked. You must have sever brain damage from lying so much.

What did I lie about there?

How do I answer what "level" I'm playing on?

[Poyzin]

Quick, I want to work with you, I really do. The fact that you are incredibly focused and scumhunting shows that you are more likely to be town than not. My problem with you is that you're trying to force me to be town in your book because you think that my constant presence is me trying to be manipulative, but you don't want to consider that maybe, just maybe, I want to solve the game? You're placing me into all sorts of ridiculous narratives because you didn't like that I ignored you early on, and there is definitely some other reasons mixed in there as well, but the point is that you aren't making much sense. No matter how many times I try to prove you wrong, you suggest a different theory about why I'm scum. I'll admit, there's no way to certainly tell that I'm town right now; it's day 1, there have been no night results, no flips to go off of, everybody is fair game. I just don't understand why you are making all of these wild assumptions that while they COULD be true, are in no way plausible. I keep on trying to mention that, yet I fear that we'll just end up butting heads for the rest of the game. I'd love to put my ego down and have a level conversation with you, but I can't do that if you only assume bad faith out of me based on rationale that only makes sense to you.

[Quick]

Okay, that's not what I asked. You must have sever brain damage from lying so much.

What did I lie about there?

How do I answer what "level" I'm playing on?

How about I level with you. You need to start telling the truth every once in a while. It's good for your mental health.

[Poyzin]

Okay, that's not what I asked. You must have sever brain damage from lying so much.

What did I lie about there?

How do I answer what "level" I'm playing on?

How about I level with you. You need to start telling the truth every once in a while. It's good for your mental health.

My mental health is not that great tbh but at least I've been telling the truth. Thanks for the advice though.

[Quick]

Quick, I want to work with you, I really do. The fact that you are incredibly focused and scumhunting shows that you are more likely to be town than not. My problem with you is that you're trying to force me to be town in your book because you think that my constant presence is me trying to be manipulative, but you don't want to consider that maybe, just maybe, I want to solve the game? You're placing me into all sorts of ridiculous narratives because you didn't like that I ignored you early on, and there is definitely some other reasons mixed in there as well, but the point is that you aren't making much sense. No matter how many times I try to prove you wrong, you suggest a different theory about why I'm scum. I'll admit, there's no way to certainly tell that I'm town right now; it's day 1, there have been no night results, no flips to go off of, everybody is fair game. I just don't understand why you are making all of these wild assumptions that while they COULD be true, are in no way plausible. I keep on trying to mention that, yet I fear that we'll just end up butting heads for the rest of the game. I'd love to put my ego down and have a level conversation with you, but I can't do that if you only assume bad faith out of me based on rationale that only makes sense to you.

Sure. Just start telling the truth. That will help.

[Poyzin]

You didn't answer my question. How can I properly answer what "level" I'm playing on? Do I say I'm playing at a low-brain, low level gameplay? That's absolutely not true; I've been dedicating a lot of time and energy to make sure that my reads make some semblance of sense. Have I been playing at a big-brain, high level gameplay? That's also not true, as I was getting emotional early on in the game and there's a good chance that I'm probably wrong with my scumreads. There is no appropriate answer for me to give here, so I'm not sure what the goal of asking this was. Please just give me a straight answer instead of sarcastically dodging the question by saying that I have severe brain damage, thanks.

[Poyzin]

Sure. Just start telling the truth. That will help.

I have never willingly* told a lie this entire game.


*I have changed positions on certain topics though, but they were always my beliefs at the time.

[Poyzin]

Sure. Just start telling the truth. That will help.

I have never willingly* told a lie this entire game.


*I have changed positions on certain topics though, but they were always my beliefs at the time.

(Sarcasm and progression out of RVS doesn't count because that's just gameplay.)

[LuckyLuciano]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

[Quick]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

Do you also have a bias against telling the truth? Or do you think FPS is a correct way to play this game?

[Datisi]

A general (and last) warning to the playerbase:

• please act civil, respect your fellow players, and don't make personal insults.
  
• do not tell other players to replace out or threaten to replace out.

[Poyzin]

Or it could be PD.

What does PD stand for

Lucky, do you know what PD means? I'm just trying to understand what Quick was trying to get at here, and I can't really argue with an acronym that I'm unfamiliar with.

[Quick]

Or it could be PD.

What does PD stand for

Lucky, do you know what PD means? I'm just trying to understand what Quick was trying to get at here, and I can't really argue with an acronym that I'm unfamiliar with.

Play Diplomacy.

[LuckyLuciano]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

Do you also have a bias against telling the truth? Or do you think FPS is a correct way to play this game?

I am asking you not to insult other players. You can say somebody is lying. Lying is part of mafia. You cannot go around telling people that they have brain damage.

[Poyzin]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

Do you also have a bias against telling the truth? Or do you think FPS is a correct way to play this game?

Do you have any proof that I was lying? Because you seem to have it in your head that every single post that I make is a lie, when this is just simply untrue.

[Quick]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

Do you also have a bias against telling the truth? Or do you think FPS is a correct way to play this game?

I am asking you not to insult other players. You can say somebody is lying. Lying is part of mafia. You cannot go around telling people that they have brain damage.

I will probably get in trouble for this, but lying does actually have a negative impact on the brain. In fact, compulsive liars DO have something very akin to brain damage. But if I get in trouble for telling the truth about lying, suddenly I'm the bad guy?

[Poyzin]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

Do you also have a bias against telling the truth? Or do you think FPS is a correct way to play this game?

I am asking you not to insult other players. You can say somebody is lying. Lying is part of mafia. You cannot go around telling people that they have brain damage.

I do agree with this, but to that point, I have no reason to lie, and there is no proof that I have lied at all. (I get that saying "there's no proof" is kind of scummy, but it is the truth.)

[LuckyLuciano]

Is it so hard to be civil?

[Quick]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

Do you also have a bias against telling the truth? Or do you think FPS is a correct way to play this game?

I am asking you not to insult other players. You can say somebody is lying. Lying is part of mafia. You cannot go around telling people that they have brain damage.

I do agree with this, but to that point, I have no reason to lie, and there is no proof that I have lied at all. (I get that saying "there's no proof" is kind of scummy, but it is the truth.)

Well...

I guess it depends on what standard we measure truth. Holding out info for a play later. Is this truthful?

/WIFOM

[Poyzin]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

Do you also have a bias against telling the truth? Or do you think FPS is a correct way to play this game?

I am asking you not to insult other players. You can say somebody is lying. Lying is part of mafia. You cannot go around telling people that they have brain damage.

I will probably get in trouble for this, but lying does actually have a negative impact on the brain. In fact, compulsive liars DO have something very akin to brain damage. But if I get in trouble for telling the truth about lying, suddenly I'm the bad guy?

People falsely accusing others of crimes they did not commit can lead to the accused's life being ruined, even if the claim turned out to be not true. People would just associate the person with the false accusation and they would never be able to escape from it.

I am not a compulsive liar, and there is no evidence to suggest that I am. Period. You saying that I probably have severe brain damage is deeply insulting, even though I didn't really respond to it much because insults about skill and mental capacity seem to be the norm with you.

[QuantumQuasar]

Players rely on feeling too much, it's not because you agree with a player or if a player is coherent that he is more likely to be town aligned.

This isn't about who is right or wrong in their discourse fundamentally.

A possible theory is that Gibus left under pressure because he can't lie and used a reference to an an going game where I was lol hammered on N1 to be warned and say that won't happen again.

On a previous game I was a town aligned jailkeeper D1 and after publishing a pre-emptive list of suspects, I removed him from that list and left something like 6 other suspects (correctly as he turned out to be town) with two votes on me. On the last post I said that the two lynch votes are a

badge of honor

in reference to the book collection as I've read a few. The votes were very sparse, undirected. In less than 24 hours or so after going to bed I found that I was lynch bus wagoned without any capacity to defend myself without any warning or L-1. This explains my behavior Day 1 towards tentative lynch votes against me that are left unaddressed instead of simply trusting the system.

When you take the profile of gibus for example, who is now LuckyLuciano, the tone and perception changed but that doesn't mean it's applicable specifically in this instance with his alignement, that could be a theoretical alignment as town from an independently neutral point of view.

The emperor is naked is not the same as the elephant in the room.


Jumble had a good read "228 - Pointing out QQ was timid as scum"

gibus

Consider the votes of gibus:

vc1.01
QuantumQuasar (1): gibus

vc1.02
Not Voting (3): Quick, NotAJumbleOfNumbers, gibus

vc1.03
Not Voting (1): gibus

vc1.04
NotAJumbleOfNumbers (2): GeorgeBailey, gibus

vc1.05
NotAJumbleOfNumbers (4): GeorgeBailey, gibus, Poyzin, Marashu

This post was his most pertinent, yet out of the blue (absence, lynch post, absence) and doesn't require an explanation as Jumble was irritated.

It looks like Quick is being scumread for his style of play, and not for being scummy. I don't like the wagon on him.
Jumble seemed opportunistic hopping on the wagon (#197), and his reason was identical to 72's (#121). I can see the low effort vote coming from scum.
#279 needs an explanation.

VOTE: NotAJumbleOfNumbers

Actually after re-reading through the argument, I'm going to VOTE: Quick again.

A possible theory is that Gibus left under pressure because he can't lie and used a reference to an an going game where I was lol hammered on N1 to be warned and say that won't happen again.

I was a town aligned jailkeeper D1 and from a pre-emptive list, I removed him from something like 6 other suspects (turns out he was town) then I had two players lynching me - I said on my last post that I took the two votes against me as a

badge of honor

in reference to the book collection as I've read a few. The votes were very sparse, undirected. In less than 24 hours or so after going to bed I found that I was lynch bus wagoned without any capacity to defend myself without any warning or pause. This explains my behavior Day 1 towards tentative lynch votes against me that are left unaddressed instead of simply trusting the system.

gibus - Null, kinda lurky with not much else to talk about

What’s the difference between this and the Marashu read?

Marashu has a lack of original ideas. I just straight up have nothing on Gibus.

What are gibus’ original ideas, and why don’t they affect your read of him, because you say that gibus is null?

158 - Town reading Poyzin because he got the game out of RVS
218 - Something involving ongoing games
228 - Pointing out QQ was timid as scum
These are fair points, but nothing about them really feels alignment indicative.

gibus - Null, kinda lurky with not much else to talk about

What’s the difference between this and the Marashu read?

Marashu has a lack of original ideas. I just straight up have nothing on Gibus.

What are gibus’ original ideas, and why don’t they affect your read of him, because you say that gibus is null?

158 - Town reading Poyzin because he got the game out of RVS
218 - Something involving ongoing games
228 - Pointing out QQ was timid as scum
These are fair points, but nothing about them really feels alignment indicative.

Who's the best player here, imho it's either Notajumbleofnumbers or offsuit and they haven't posted yet

This post never comes from scum.

Explain.
You can't throw out a statement like this without clarifying.

Scum doesn’t call the entirety of the active player list bad, or at least that none of them are “the best” players. I don’t think I’m the best player here but it’s unnecessarily confrontational and scum does not benefit at all from posting this, especially when QQ was never the focus of the thread at any time yet thus far.

I liked this reasoning. Tbh it’s also the juxtaposition of QQ - I don’t think a newb who is as fearful of lolwagons throws out a line like this as scum. I think they’re more likely to lock up/silent than talk.

I agree. Just read QQ's only scum game (over) and he seemed locked up/silent.
Could be a ploy, but I agree. Slight TR on QQ.

______________________

GB

Was GB excited or nervous on day start?

A) Posts out of the blue after referencing another game after 24hours, jumps in the middle of the conversation (not that it's not allowed but potentially to sow discord)

page 6

To elaborate, #113 felt less defensive from my perspective and more testy, like “bet you aren’t going to vote me”. I don’t think it’s townie not a productive mindset, which is why Quick is still a null read for me, but I’m pretty sure this was his plan all along. I’m only saying this because I’m townreading you for now and have been the person that I’ve agreed with the most, so I’m just letting you know how I see it.

How about no? How about you check my Scum games to see how I play as Scum? I am strategic as Scum and I get lynched a LOT as Scum, but my record as Scum is actually BETTER than my Town record. My wiki is right THERE check it if you doubt me.

Okay never mind, this is much worse than what was being posted before. This is pretty clearly defensive, but anywho, the crux of your argument is “I’m not scum here because I played completely different as scum in the past”. If you played the same way as scum every single game then I’d be sorry for you, and I don’t buy your “check my meta to prove my towniness” for a minute.

No, my point is that YOU are Scum because you have shit arguments for why I am "Null....lol"

Bad arguments != scum. It just means that you have bad arguments.

Bad arguments != scum. It just means that you have bad arguments.

Not necessarily. Since scum has to come up with reasons to Scumread people out of thin air, bad arguments are usually an indicator.

B) absent 1 lynch post absent

I have formed opinions about people here. I just didn't feel like those opinions were strong enough to use my vote on. Now with that being said...

VOTE: Quick

I'm just not a huge fan of his constant sarcastic replies.

Why would you think that comes from scum?

VOTE: NotAJumbleOfNumbers

note: absent 1 lynch post absent


C) References an older post again interfering in a discussion, somewhat chronogically confusing

Biggest generalisation in the history of humankind ^

I've seen scum do this more often than not. And what? Most of scumhunting is generalization.

"This is what scum would do"

"This is very townie" are all generalizations of what that alignment would act. I don't understand your point.

First vote:

me, post 156
bailey says he hopes everyone is town and earlier denies everything so that's not a very sensical way to play

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

me, post 160

@bailey someone is projecting and you're asking me to be your attorney . Are you sure you're at L-2? who else voted for you

Then Unvote:

UNVOTE: georgebailey

silence from GB


D) Absence, post lynch, absence

I have formed opinions about people here. I just didn't feel like those opinions were strong enough to use my vote on. Now with that being said...

VOTE: Quick

I'm just not a huge fan of his constant sarcastic replies.

Why would you think that comes from scum?

VOTE: NotAJumbleOfNumbers

_________________________


Quick

Overthinking just because I said I expect a conf town on D2 and scum claiming PR on D2 is a smart move, besides from cause to effect don't expect me to be implicated if Poyzin flips or anyone flips for that matter because correlation does not imply causation.

I've viewed the approach of Poyzin to be artificial in the beginning with his first post and to be a wolf in sheeps clothing but it turns out that your discussion showed more sincerity.

Regarding a tell to you claimed to have found on a behavior, to paraphrase if I recall correctly 72offsuit, that's IF my behavior is that way and is consistent with that with an image to portray as a cover.

You see, there's a statement made towards LL that's quite brutal and I wouldn't go that far:

On how listening to yourself provides feedback to what you're saying when one isn't cognizant of awareness of course that's game related, consider the incessant posts between you and poyzin

BTW, this implicates QQ if Poyzin flips read.

Reason being is that Poyzin is all over the place with accusing me of such and such. Yet QQ never takes sides. He actually only mentions me and not Poyzin. It

could

be because QQ knows I am more aware of what I am doing than poyzin is. That's just one theory though and ASSUMES Poyzin is Town since QQ really doesn't have any reasons for why Poyzin is Town, which is Scummy af if Poyzin is Scum because it's hard for Scum to TR their teammates with legitimate reasons.

What QQ said about the people unvoting me is a good Townie look. I wouldn't put it past 72 to do something like that as Scum, but beyond that, it's gravy. IDK if QQ said NAJM was Town for unvoting me or not from recall, but unless NAJM unpacks their reasoning for why I am Scum I'm going to have a hard time believing that there isn't Scum in NAJM/72.

So I can potentially see Scum in: NAJM/72 And/Or 72/GB And/Or NAJM/Poyzin, but Poyzin has a lot more Scum equity than anyone else in the game by a mile.

So I will keep my vote where it is.

teacher is my top TR right now I think.

Then:

Quick, I want to work with you, I really do. The fact that you are incredibly focused and scumhunting shows that you are more likely to be town than not. My problem with you is that you're trying to force me to be town in your book because you think that my constant presence is me trying to be manipulative, but you don't want to consider that maybe, just maybe, I want to solve the game? You're placing me into all sorts of ridiculous narratives because you didn't like that I ignored you early on, and there is definitely some other reasons mixed in there as well, but the point is that you aren't making much sense. No matter how many times I try to prove you wrong, you suggest a different theory about why I'm scum. I'll admit, there's no way to certainly tell that I'm town right now; it's day 1, there have been no night results, no flips to go off of, everybody is fair game. I just don't understand why you are making all of these wild assumptions that while they COULD be true, are in no way plausible. I keep on trying to mention that, yet I fear that we'll just end up butting heads for the rest of the game. I'd love to put my ego down and have a level conversation with you, but I can't do that if you only assume bad faith out of me based on rationale that only makes sense to you.

Sure. Just start telling the truth. That will help.

The truth? Some participants pretend to be angry to close a deal and to reach an objective, but throwing oil and the fire and reigniting provocations only go so far, but to what end please?

On how listening to yourself provides feedback to what you're saying when one isn't cognizant of awareness of course that's game related, consider the incessant posts between you and poyzin

BTW, this implicates QQ if Poyzin flips read.

Reason being is that Poyzin is all over the place with accusing me of such and such. Yet QQ never takes sides. He actually only mentions me and not Poyzin. It

could

be because QQ knows I am more aware of what I am doing than poyzin is. That's just one theory though and ASSUMES Poyzin is Town since QQ really doesn't have any reasons for why Poyzin is Town, which is Scummy af if Poyzin is Scum because it's hard for Scum to TR their teammates with legitimate reasons.

What QQ said about the people unvoting me is a good Townie look. I wouldn't put it past 72 to do something like that as Scum, but beyond that, it's gravy. IDK if QQ said NAJM was Town for unvoting me or not from recall, but unless NAJM unpacks their reasoning for why I am Scum I'm going to have a hard time believing that there isn't Scum in NAJM/72.

So I can potentially see Scum in: NAJM/72 And/Or 72/GB And/Or NAJM/Poyzin, but Poyzin has a lot more Scum equity than anyone else in the game by a mile.

So I will keep my vote where it is.

teacher is my top TR right now I think.

As for my question, I think it stands - from where I'm seeing it, he's saying both he and jumble have more posts than you as of that time. That's NAI because it's something that can be easily checked. I just did - as of post 214, teacher had roughly double the number of your posts and Jumble had exactly one more post than you did.

PEdit - I agree that he shouldn't be hammered yet. If anyone is considering it, please declare intent and wait for his defense.

If the question is about who is talking more be my guest, you can't expect a lesson explaining everything each time.

One can't appeal constantly to a popularity contest for plebiscite

since Jumble is at L-1 let him defend himself

just as quick said he won't let himself get voted off from newbies at L-1, how is voting for #1 so obviously a move too obvious to lynch #1 on D1 newbish

VOTE: QQ

Quick don't park your vote on me please, that would be a contradiction

I'm going to be targeted on N1 so don't park your vote on me and update please

QQ - Townlean, feels very newbie town to me

What about QQ makes you think that he is a newbie, and why is he town?

More or less where I am rn...

NAJM, 72
GB, teacher
gibus > Null
Poyzin

Unreadable: QQ, Marash

Note: there is probably 1 Scum in 72/GB

This feels like a bus.

Could you expand on why you think this is a bus?

Too much effort too early to be a real read. More or less.

This is lame. Town can put in effort early as well. You’re at two strikes.

(This is an empty threat)

Are you and 72 going to lynch me because I caught you?

This feels super defensive. I'm voting for QQ right now and am questioning you because I got an early bad ping, and I'm not liking what I'm seeing from you since. Every comment just feels really sarcastic or antagonistic and not really conducive to game-solving.

VOTE: Quick

QQ is Town. And so am I. Good luck with your game though.

__________________________


Marashu

Poyzin said that Marashu was a let down because inactivity, well ask Marashu a bunch of questions go ahead

To be fair, I was only talking to Quick for as long as I was because I knew he would be active and posting consistently. There’s be no reason to ask Marashu a bunch of questions because I knew he wouldn’t answer them swiftly.

With that being said, I don’t see anything wrong with my behavior at the present. I’ll concede that most of my points have been directed towards Quick but it’s only because he is the hardest player for me to understand. He said that he scumreads me because I think the Earth is round for heaven sakes.

Alright, I'm caught up now.

That TL on Poyzin is still present; this is probably my biggest TL right now.
The Poyzin/Quick fight I think is pretty disruptive in trying to read what other people are thinking, because of how much it's dominating the day. The part of 151 that focused on Poyzin was a lot of AtE and didn't really address any of the points in those posts. I can't tell if Quick is antagonizing Poyzin on purpose to generate reactions (the last game I was in had a lot of reaction tests in it from town players), but I really don't think this is SvS, which means that at least one scum is likely taking advantage of this fight.

VOTE: 72offsuit

• Voting because of player behaviour and not because of arguments (121 and 131 where the reasoning is because of sarcasm and abrasiveness), which suggests not trying to solve the game
  
• This defense is 100% WIFOM:

  4. Deja vu from last game.
  How likely do you think that scum is to chainsaw a scum-buddy with one vote on them in the first 10 pages or so?

Also, 285 - Your own words put it best:

Explain.
You can't throw out a statement like this without clarifying.

Again this is from feels "sarcasm and abrasiveness", the difference with GB is that he pulled out some Poe's law about it and maintained ambuiguity expecting town to accept him as he is and if he's gone and flips town, then Town loses out

[Poyzin]

If Quick continues to insult players I will be leaving the game.

Do you also have a bias against telling the truth? Or do you think FPS is a correct way to play this game?

I am asking you not to insult other players. You can say somebody is lying. Lying is part of mafia. You cannot go around telling people that they have brain damage.

I do agree with this, but to that point, I have no reason to lie, and there is no proof that I have lied at all. (I get that saying "there's no proof" is kind of scummy, but it is the truth.)

Well...

I guess it depends on what standard we measure truth. Holding out info for a play later. Is this truthful?

/WIFOM

What the fuck am I lying about. How the fuck would I gain from it as scum. What is even your goal in accusing me for a fictitious reason to make me out to be some sort of mentally incapacitated compulsive liar?

[Poyzin]

[SNIP]

I can't comprehend any of this, information overload