Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[hellbooks]

oh hush you. I don't even know who that is. what? haha.

[midwaybear]

wait what? I thought hellbooks was newbie

[hellbooks]

I dont think i've ever been pretending to be a newbie. I mean I'm pretty familiar with the terminology, haven't played any newbies etc etc.

[CantHateAPuppy]

I like my vote atm.

VOTE: ready2rock

I can actually buy the votecount shenanigans as being a genuine mistake given that I don't really see the point of doing it as scum, but him saying he thinks that votato looked bad for misinterpreting something while voting VPB (for voting people over minor things if I remember correctly) while VPB is voting votato for the exact reason he mentioned feels pretty gross.
I usually give townpoints in my head to people town or scumreading people for the same reasons I am if they post about it before I get to it, and him mentioning votato feeling bad for that and then voting VPB feels like an excuse for a vote instead of an honest reason to think VPB is scum.

@ready - What makes you think Blair vs Quick is TvT? I know Puppy mentioned a reason for it earlier but do you agree with what he said or do you have your own for it?

It's partially out of my reads of them being town before they started their back and forth, then when they started their discussion with each other the way they were pushing each other felt genuine on both ends

why were you reading them both as TvT beforehand then?

i've changed my mind, the other posters were right. i don't think gamma votes for r2r here if r2r is scum.

this was a moment in the game when the wagons were all pretty even and this gamma vote pushed r2r out in front. given how gamma later switches to NPOM, I don't think Gamma bussed r2r here just to pull a switch later.

[CantHateAPuppy]

ok well thats actually a hammer

yup.

My pick for Scum team is in: [VP, Gamma, votato, Blair, R2R, Dunn]

GLHF

More or less where I am with flips and subtracting myself...

Hellbooks
VP, R2R
Puppy, votato, Dunn
mav

on the one hand, quick's reads keep changing really dramatically when he has a system that supposedly that's supposed to give decent results. am i supposed to believe that the system wasn't working until *current moment when quick declares what his real reads are*?

on the same hand, quick's methods produced gamma as hard town, which has lead to almost no introspection about whether his methods are wrong. at least, not in any sort of way he's willing to share with the class.

on the other hand, I don't think scum would defend Gamma as hard as Quick did on D2. Unless this is some sort of weird confidence move on Quick's part. Thoughts, anyone?

[CantHateAPuppy]

UNVOTE: votato

as i keep reading old stuff i want to shift my perspective on this game, but i'm not sure where yet. Will try to cast a new vote after dinner. (Apologies for all the thread spam!)

[ready2rock]

@puppy: to add to what mavs said about your opinion being wishy washy, I really notice it reading back after mavs claims. You go from believing votato and thinking mavs is lying in 1638 to saying that the breadcrumbs are good in 1641 to saying that either mavs or votato are scum in 1648, then turn around and say that a mavs votato scumteam is plausible in 1653, and I could go on, but to me it reads like you’re just throwing a lot of thoughts at the wall on votato and mavs and I still can’t get a good sense of your read on them at all.

Did you townread either of them at first after the claim? At what point did that change? I know you’re evolving your stance on the game atm, but I want you to help me with your thought process at the time

@midway thoughts on puppy’s more recent posts? Who is in your PoE overall at this point?

@votato can you elaborate a bit on your read on hellbooks? Has it changed at all since your 1686?

@hellbooks Where is your read on puppy atm? If puppy flips red, where do you propose we should look next?

[CantHateAPuppy]

@puppy: to add to what mavs said about your opinion being wishy washy, I really notice it reading back after mavs claims. You go from believing votato and thinking mavs is lying in 1638 to saying that the breadcrumbs are good in 1641 to saying that either mavs or votato are scum in 1648, then turn around and say that a mavs votato scumteam is plausible in 1653, and I could go on, but to me it reads like you’re just throwing a lot of thoughts at the wall on votato and mavs and I still can’t get a good sense of your read on them at all.

Did you townread either of them at first after the claim? At what point did that change? I know you’re evolving your stance on the game atm, but I want you to help me with your thought process at the time

yes, i am thinking out loud, not just declaring my read as Scum/Town and then listing all the evidence for/against. it's not like votato has to be wrong about every point even if i think he's scum, and i think there are plusses and minuses in the way mavs claimed.

if you can't get a good sense of my read it's because i can't get a good sense of it either. that's the whole point right? the whole benefit to being town is i can express my thoughts and doubts as they come to me instead of carefully guarding them in an easily digested pill form.

like, if you have questions, just ask, let's talk this through. this is a team game right?

[Dunnstral]

Also, someone suggested claiming fruit vendor and withholding the disloyal part as a ploy, but in the game Dunn posted, there was BOTH, so claiming fruit vendor would’ve potentially been CC’ed and that would’ve been an ABSOLUTE disaster. More destructive than me just fucking up my role assuming “fruit checker” is a thing.

You didn't have a reason to suspect there was another fruit vendor when you were initially claiming, though

[Dunnstral]

I'm not seeing the case against Puppy

hellbooks play is pretty bad actually, my townread from atarashi is fading

I don't really want to vote quick

I still want Votato

[Dunnstral]

Quick, do you think that there is for sure scum within hellbooks/midway?

[mavsfan41]

Also, someone suggested claiming fruit vendor and withholding the disloyal part as a ploy, but in the game Dunn posted, there was BOTH, so claiming fruit vendor would’ve potentially been CC’ed and that would’ve been an ABSOLUTE disaster. More destructive than me just fucking up my role assuming “fruit checker” is a thing.

You didn't have a reason to suspect there was another fruit vendor when you were initially claiming, though

This was a realization in hindsight. At the point of my claim, I thought my role was supposed to be working with another role and not just by myself hoping scum would willingly and voluntarily claim they have fruit.

[votato]

@votato can you elaborate a bit on your read on hellbooks? Has it changed at all since your 1686?

honestly im still really unsure of that slot. there are some really good posts and then some really bad posts.

[votato]

I'm not seeing the case against Puppy

hellbooks play is pretty bad actually, my townread from atarashi is fading

I don't really want to vote quick

I still want Votato

why do you want me?

[VP Baltar]

Apparently I have a lot of catching up to do. I'll address things in this post as I read them:

So... if we lynch mavs, then we are going to have to be pretty damn sure they are Scum here because their flip tells us VERY little either way. That said, I would not put it past you to ask this question of me if you already know the answer. After all, if you are Scum with mavs, then asking this question helps mav not get lynched (potentially).

That is why I originally wanted to flip you based on how you would change the game on your flip. Because you are actually the highest info lynch in the game rn and your red flip basically solves the game for us.

Follow up question: Do you think it's more important we catch scum today or we attempt to clear players through your system? I'm personally of the mindset that catching scum is the top priority every day, even if you don't always get enough connections -- mostly because I think the extra time you buy catching scum means you're more likely to solve the game before the end. But you may me of a different mindset.

I don't have much at the moment, which I why I need to have a reread. Before I was pretty set on wanting a mavs lynch, and now I'm not sure how helpful it'll be to flip mavs either way

Flipping him if he's scum is definitely helpful.

I don’t know what this will reveal if Puppy flips red, but I think at this point, he’s most likely to flip red (votato would likely be cleared. R2R would also absolutely be cleared.)

You could find this out if you look at the two posts I made last night. Are you being coy or fishing for an answer here or what?

I mean, in fairness, there is definitely a magic box quality to your system. I don't see why we outsiders have any incentive to trust the parts of it we do not understand.

There are certain qualifications that make a Non-Associative, but obviously I can't talk about that so that my system continues to work and Scum can't manipulate it.

Ok, so yeah. I don't doubt this system works for you as town, but I just can't take your word wholesale that this pays off and I should trust you to the end and see what happens.

Still, this comes across as earnest for whatever reason. UNVOTE:

I need to do some more thinking on Quick again.

@Puppy - if the mavs lynch doesn't happen today, what do you think is the best compromise? Can you sum up the votato case for me?

votato started with a very flimsy read on Atarashi/hellbooks, which he claimed was based on reading other games, but his read was inconsistent. (His read was in two parts, one was based on Atarashi's scum game, the other was based on the fact that he'd never actually seen Atarashi's scum game.) he was just trying to look like he put work in

a lot of his other reads show the same trait, i think this case keeps getting better and better! (look at his midway vote in 1066, it's totally empty.)

i also don't like the way he sided with gamma against blair. i almost think he sided too strongly with gamma, but looking again I still don't like it. see 1110 where he complains about blair posting too much without content. For comparison, 1677 he talks about how high his postcount is, and tries to quiz quick about voting for midway. (Wasn't that one of votato's scumtells?)

I also think if Votato makes a lot of sense with Gamma, he makes a lot of sense with Mav. This is kind of arbitrary, not sure i want to put too much into building a team right now. but read each iso looking for mentions of the other and it looks like distancing

I mean, I can't argue that votato has had some very weird plays this game. That stuck out to me early on when I pushed for his lynch Day 1. I think I said this earlier, but votato feels reckless in a town way. He's taking chances and putting unpopular votes out there at times when it feels like he could coast more. He's also had some good posts along side some of the bad ones.

By suggesting not lynching either, you were accepting Blair’s claim but refusing to vote Gamma. And the lack of a flip there wouldn’t give town any good information.

Yes, I agree with this. That suggestion still sticks with me as weird. It was very clear to almost everyone that we need to clear up the investigation.

whatever if my lynch helps clear mavs, so be it
but mavs is pretty useless at this point, so it shouldn't really matter

if your lynch does what now???

nvm i don't think it does.

narrator: It doesn't

@Puppy: oh, you were afk. Seems legit. Oh wait, didn’t you push me on why it took me an hour to claim after the L-1 vote? (Checks thread, finds 1645). It appears you did. So that’s a scum read for you, me waiting an hour, but you being afk for much longer is me digging too much in an attempt to get you mislynched as scum? Oh, gotcha. My bad...

Can we lynch Puppy?

Ouch.

Giving a summation of this puppy/mavs fight, I think mavs comes out looking stronger. HOWEVER, I'm actually worried that puppy is town here and has been phoning in the game for a minute. Let's not forget that puppy did actually disappear for a hot minute (around Day 2 iirc), so I could see a town!puppy coming back trying to make a case and just leaning into it too hard because they hadn't worked on the game much earlier.

@r2r and hellbrooks - who do you actually want to vote out today? We need some stronger opinions from you. Particularly hellbrooks. I totally get the claim changing reads or needing to reconsider, but I see a lot of "well it could be X....or it could also be Y"...which isn't super helpful in trying to read you.

VOTE: puppy

y tho?

Also thinking that a r2r bus from Gamma is very plausible especially since it looks strongly like r2r is now looking to coast.

Very plausible? no.

mavs, why do you think votato is town

most of his iso is just sniping at other players and throwing shade (a lot of what you think makes me scum)

Cause I think you’re scum. And if you’re scum, votato can’t be your buddy.

Where do you look if puppy is town

You....just voted puppy...

That post seems pretty towny

VOTE: hellbrooks
I don't think you've offered one actual opinion today without immediately going back on it.

VPB was in the second game I ever played here and then in a few more that Vi modded in the way back times

VP, does Gamma bus?

I honestly couldn't tell you. It's been so many years since I played on this site. Previous last game was in 2013 (I think?) Keeping people's playstyles in memory is not something I've done, and even if I had, it'd probably be irrelevant at this point. I'm sure a quick look at vote counts in his more recent scum games would answer this question though.

wait what? I thought hellbooks was newbie

Actually, this feels pretty relevant. I totally was operating under the premise that hellbrooks was a newer player and that's why she couldn't make any kind of decisions about her reads.

hellbrooks, why exactly has your play been so waffling if you've been on this site for years and actually know how this game works?

Also, someone suggested claiming fruit vendor and withholding the disloyal part as a ploy, but in the game Dunn posted, there was BOTH, so claiming fruit vendor would’ve potentially been CC’ed and that would’ve been an ABSOLUTE disaster. More destructive than me just fucking up my role assuming “fruit checker” is a thing.

You didn't have a reason to suspect there was another fruit vendor when you were initially claiming, though

Not sure I agree with this. He may have made a bad assumption here, but I could totally see him thinking this was a two part town role. The odds of it actually landing an investigation before one of the roles dies would not be high overall I would think.

[Quick]

yes that's what I'm implying here. I think Gamma's confidence in the puppy townread suggests he knows that puppy is town

lol.
let's see this thru no need for it to be secret anyway

Yeah, you really should have some reads at this point... I remember you are more of a cautious player but something tells me you are being too hedgy. You keep saying "Hmm" "I don't know" and the like. I don't buy it. Pretty soon you will unvote Puppy and that will be a bad look for you..

[Quick]

@Puppy - if the mavs lynch doesn't happen today, what do you think is the best compromise? Can you sum up the votato case for me?

votato started with a very flimsy read on Atarashi/hellbooks, which he claimed was based on reading other games, but his read was inconsistent. (His read was in two parts, one was based on Atarashi's scum game, the other was based on the fact that he'd never actually seen Atarashi's scum game.) he was just trying to look like he put work in

a lot of his other reads show the same trait, i think this case keeps getting better and better! (look at his midway vote in 1066, it's totally empty.)

i also don't like the way he sided with gamma against blair. i almost think he sided too strongly with gamma, but looking again I still don't like it. see 1110 where he complains about blair posting too much without content. For comparison, 1677 he talks about how high his postcount is, and tries to quiz quick about voting for midway. (Wasn't that one of votato's scumtells?)

I also think if Votato makes a lot of sense with Gamma, he makes a lot of sense with Mav. This is kind of arbitrary, not sure i want to put too much into building a team right now. but read each iso looking for mentions of the other and it looks like distancing

I mean, I can't argue that votato has had some very weird plays this game. That stuck out to me early on when I pushed for his lynch Day 1. I think I said this earlier, but votato feels reckless in a town way. He's taking chances and putting unpopular votes out there at times when it feels like he could coast more. He's also had some good posts along side some of the bad ones.

To be fair to votato here, I am still trying to figure out their meta. IIRC they are just like this meaning weird plays, but I haven't seen a completed game from them yet so not really sure on votato as a whole. I just know they do actually have a pretty weird meta.

[Quick]

mavs, why do you think votato is town

most of his iso is just sniping at other players and throwing shade (a lot of what you think makes me scum)

Cause I think you’re scum. And if you’re scum, votato can’t be your buddy.

you had votato as town all game. this is a cop out answer.

@mav, why are you TRing votato?

[Quick]

Meta.

??? You never played with me as scum.

What's your point?

so you can't say meta

Why not?

@midway, please answer this.

[Quick]

ok well thats actually a hammer

yup.

My pick for Scum team is in: [VP, Gamma, votato, Blair, R2R, Dunn]

GLHF

More or less where I am with flips and subtracting myself...

Hellbooks
VP, R2R
Puppy, votato, Dunn
mav

on the one hand, quick's reads keep changing really dramatically when he has a system that supposedly that's supposed to give decent results. am i supposed to believe that the system wasn't working until *current moment when quick declares what his real reads are*?

on the same hand, quick's methods produced gamma as hard town, which has lead to almost no introspection about whether his methods are wrong. at least, not in any sort of way he's willing to share with the class.

on the other hand, I don't think scum would defend Gamma as hard as Quick did on D2. Unless this is some sort of weird confidence move on Quick's part. Thoughts, anyone?

BTW, this is a blatant misrep on your part. One was before Gamma flipped Scum and one is the next Day (I think). Not sure why you expect my reads to be the same when we had a Scum flip.

[Quick]

I'm fine with a Puppy lynch. And midway is going to look really bad if Puppy flips Scum.

[Quick]

UNVOTE:
ugh

This is really Scummy if Puppy flips red.

I was actually baiting this move by hellbooks with my naked vote on Puppy. It turns out both midway and hellbooks had really bad reactions to my vote on Puppy IIRC, but I think hellbooks was worse given that midway just blatantly calls Puppy Town and hellbooks just skirts the issue with an "Uhg" without any explanation.

[CantHateAPuppy]

you had gamma as potential scum. gamma flips as scum, and suddenly several of your other scumreads change too. that's black box thinking. Black box!

I think i used to be a townread of yours too, and now you want me lynched, and the only explanation I can see is something about your POE rooted in your black box (Black box!). I'm not offended or anything, but when i flip green if you magically have a new set of scumreads, it begs the question of how exactly your system is working and why town should trust that you're not just making it all up.

[CantHateAPuppy]

I was actually baiting this move by hellbooks with my naked vote on Puppy. It turns out both midway and hellbooks had really bad reactions to my vote on Puppy IIRC, but I think hellbooks was worse given that midway just blatantly calls Puppy Town and hellbooks just skirts the issue with an "Uhg"

without any explanation

.

look who's talking

[Quick]

So basically, I have come around on mav's claim and I think Puppy attacking mav solely on the claim is really bad. With hellbooks being so noncommittal on everything combined with their vote on puppy and the unvote for seemingly no reason, I think the last two Scum is hellbooks and Puppy. I could be wrong, it could be VP mav, but that combination is looking more and more unlikely to me with every passing day. For one, VP has almost all their Non-Associatives with all the Scummiest players in the game. That's a good Town look because it means VP is attacking Scummy things. mav might have a really weird claim, but at this point, I buy it. He could have gotten nervous and didn't handle the claim well but nervousness isn't inherently Scummy since who really wants to get lynched? Especially when you KNOW your claim is already really Scummy. I don't think mav would have claimed that role as Scum here. Reason being is because of what Gamma claimed. Gamma claimed D3 Vig. That is totally in a different nature than mav's claim. mav's role is MEANT to be Scummy IMO. I have had roles like that in the past and gottent lynched for them just because the claim itself is Scummy. I think that is why the mod put that claim in the game - to make it look like an unbelievable claim. But it's actually so Scummy it's Townie IMO.

TL;DR: let's lynch Puppy.