Micro 941 | Brass and Shrapnel | Game Over!

[Hoctac]

How do you read DkKoba, ceejay?

Probably town

[Night 3 Roses]

Wait, actually, Penpow is capable of being aggressive and vocal as scum too. You're townreading him off the sample size of just 2 games?

not quite, that's the meta aspect of it. i think what he said was true, if he were to be scum here he'd be taking the path of most resistance.

~

It is possible that I am misunderstanding the intended meaning of that point against Koba. I take the idea that someone's wagon quietly dissolving is a sign of their scumminess to mean "scum buddies helped to dissolve the wagon to avoid the scum getting too much attention". Such an explanation doesn't make sense to me in a two-scum-game setting, though, because assuming scum are not self-voting, at most one scum is voting for another scum at any given time, and so there is very little control scum would have over a scum wagon dissolving.

But, like I said, it is possible I am misunderstanding the intended meaning of the original point; if I am, I am willing to reconsider including it in the NAI list.

i mean, what i think of when saying that someone helped dissolve someone's wagon is that they were defending someone and/or getting other people to vote somewhere else. i've "dissolved" wagons like that single-handedly before.

but i don't exactly do VCA when scumhunting anyway, so ask the penguin what he meant i guess?

Truth be told, I didn't know for sure what PP's entire argument against me was when I pledged to write you the list you requested. PP's posting style being lots of short posts makes it hard for me to determine full cases from them. (I try to put together longer, more infrequent posts with points organized as best I can because I think it makes my cases clearer.) If an easy summary of it is possible then I'd be glad to re-examine. (Whether that changes my mind or not would depend on the volume and strength of any parts of the case, of course.)

again, why don't you ask?

I believe there are different types of misreadings/factual errors, depending on purpose/intent/what-have-you. To me, Koba thinking there are 3 scum or not knowing if bombs can be roleblocked NAI because they aren't being used to push the idea that someone is scum, whereas PP's claims about the priority lists and claim orders aren't NAI because they are being used to support the idea of a Kilga/Hoctac scum team.

am i misremembering or did Koba also use some factually incorrect stuff to support scum!PP?

~

Sorry did I miss something, why are we so sure the NK was Koba?

+1

ceejay was townreading DkKoba. No one here has claimed kills on anyone who died. So it has to be ceejay killing Holden and blowing up, and DkKoba dying to the nightkill. Also, we can safely assume DkKoba would've shot Penpow in the night, and clearly that did nothing.

The lylo thing was an incorrect assumption on my part, but yeah, I would think scum would want to keep both around.

except not really
vigs send their kill in after the day's lynch has flipped, so it's possible someone reevaluates and their professed reads at day don't reflect exactly who they shot
so i don't think we can know exactly what happened at night

also response to this?

I struggle to see a world where Kilga is scum and Roses are town. Since, Kilga absolutely continues scumreading me and capitalises on Roses' scumread on me to win today.

did i miss kilga dropping his scumread of you?

-D

[Hoctac]

You mean least resistance?

And I think it's fair to assume the kills happened like that tbh. The alternative is DkKoba and ceejay killing each other(??) and scum killing Holden.

[Hoctac]

Kilga dropped his scumread when he came in today pushing Tuxe and making no mention of being suspicious of me. Lack of suspicions I'm taking as dropping his scumread.

[Hoctac]

Who's your preffered lynch and hammer, Roses, and why?

[Night 3 Roses]

You mean least resistance?

And I think it's fair to assume the kills happened like that tbh. The alternative is DkKoba and ceejay killing each other(??) and scum killing Holden.

err, what i meant is "if PP were to be scum here, he'd be taking a more difficult path, but i don't think scum!him would do that, so i don't think he's scum"
but your interpretation gets the point across too i think

or both Koba and ceejay blowing up on Holden with one of the three of them being a nightkill?

also i vaguely remember reading someone saying that "it was pretty obvious Koba wouldn't shoot PP" and i'm thinking about that

-D

[Night 3 Roses]

Kilga dropped his scumread when he came in today pushing Tuxe and making no mention of being suspicious of me. Lack of suspicions I'm taking as dropping his scumread.

what do you think about 983?

-D

[Night 3 Roses]

Who's your preffered lynch and hammer, Roses, and why?

probably still Kilga, and i'd prefer him choosing his own hammerer if it comes down to it

-D

[Night 3 Roses]

btw love the gin avi, did Kanna choose it?

-D

[Hoctac]

You mean least resistance?

And I think it's fair to assume the kills happened like that tbh. The alternative is DkKoba and ceejay killing each other(??) and scum killing Holden.

err, what i meant is "if PP were to be scum here, he'd be taking a more difficult path, but i don't think scum!him would do that, so i don't think he's scum"
but your interpretation gets the point across too i think

or both Koba and ceejay blowing up on Holden with one of the three of them being a nightkill?

also i vaguely remember reading someone saying that "it was pretty obvious Koba wouldn't shoot PP" and i'm thinking about that

-D

I see. Also, that's something I didn't consider.

Technically

a possibility, but just less likely.

[Hoctac]

Kilga dropped his scumread when he came in today pushing Tuxe and making no mention of being suspicious of me. Lack of suspicions I'm taking as dropping his scumread.

what do you think about 983?

-D

Well, he's pushing Penpow to be lynched over me. The main point I was making is that he could specifically target

me

to capitalise on your scumread on me, but he didn't. Anyway, after Ico started reconsidering it became irrelevant.

Who's your preffered lynch and hammer, Roses, and why?

probably still Kilga, and i'd prefer him choosing his own hammerer if it comes down to it

-D

Sigh. I have no idea. Kilga seems to be the person actually trying to solve today, and rereading and trying to come up with cases. I got townpings from Ico's 180 on me, but maybe I'm making a huge mistake again by not going for the person I shot in the night and didn't die.

Tuxe... I gotta see more from you. You've been careful, you agreed with me saying Kilga is town, and you townread me, do does that mean you think it's Roses+Penpow?

[Hoctac]

btw love the gin avi, did Kanna choose it?

-D

Actually, Isis did lol. She's playing through the game right now. I still haven't sigh. One day.

[Kilgamayan]

Truth be told, I didn't know for sure what PP's entire argument against me was when I pledged to write you the list you requested. PP's posting style being lots of short posts makes it hard for me to determine full cases from them. (I try to put together longer, more infrequent posts with points organized as best I can because I think it makes my cases clearer.) If an easy summary of it is possible then I'd be glad to re-examine. (Whether that changes my mind or not would depend on the volume and strength of any parts of the case, of course.)

again, why don't you ask?

I will ask PP about the Koba Wagon thing in my next post (don't want it to get lost in this long one), but in this particular instance, I am also interested in what you specifically think PP's case against me is, since the wording of your initial response implied you think I missed something, and I want to know what that thing is.

am i misremembering or did Koba also use some factually incorrect stuff to support scum!PP?

Mmm, in looking back, this did indeed happen, regarding PP's discussion of Bingle in a previous game. In initially thinking about this after finding it I was going to be more lenient with this because I thought I remembered Koba saying English isn't their first language, but now I can't seem to find whether or not Koba said that, so maybe I just imagined it? Does anyone still alive know if English is Koba's first language or not?

---

also i vaguely remember reading someone saying that "it was pretty obvious Koba wouldn't shoot PP" and i'm thinking about that

I remember PP himself said this in 922, but I don't remember anyone else saying it. It's certainly possible someone did, but I don't really have the time/energy right now to go back and look. If checking this becomes a sticking point for someone and no one else does it then I could probably do it tomorrow.

RE Hoctac Suspicion: At present, I am not completely sold on Hoctac being town, but it seems less likely than PP being town. Also worth noting is this excerpt from my 902:

I didn't mention this at the time, but I had also started to doubt my Hoctac vote - even with Hoctac at 3 votes, I felt like I had spent so much of the day trying to sell people on my Hoctac case, but no one was buying it (this is why I posted 528), and only Holden seemed to buy in after the restatement of the case in 567. I recalled at least a couple of people having townreads on Hoctac without engaging with any of the pushing I had done on the case (I have no particular post reference for this atm, but I can try to dig up something for you later if you really want), and it was so incredibly frustrating, but also perhaps indicative of the quality of the case, and between that and the overall collection of Hoctac's responses over the course of the day, I started thinking "...maybe this really is just a stupid wordswordswords D1 case that isn't actually meaningful". The enomis case felt a lot more solid by comparison, since it was based primarily around (a lack of) voting reasons, so I decided to go with what I felt better about.

(As long as this is highlighted, I would like to point out the similarities between the explanation here for my Hoctac unvote and my 951 Tuxedo case update, except there was actually interest in a Hoctac lynch at the time of my mind change there. Kind of surprised no one got all in a tizzy about this explanation given how the reactions to 951 shook out.)

[Kilgamayan]

@PP

: What specifically did you find interesting about Koba's wagon disappearing?

[Kilgamayan]

RE Hoctac Suspicion: At present, I am not completely sold on Hoctac being town, but it seems less likely than PP being town.

*it seems

more

like than PP being town

God how do I do this every damn time

[Tuxedo Mask]

Tuxe... I gotta see more from you. You've been careful, you agreed with me saying Kilga is town, and you townread me, do does that mean you think it's Roses+Penpow?

Well, I agreed with your logic that he seemed to have no likely partners, but that doesn't stop Kilga's slot being the scummiest on its own. Though yes, I do see the logic in a Roses+Penpow team. Going back to day 1, if we're thinking the NK was Koba it does have me reread the interaction. While scum probably would be less likely to take that difficult path, it was also a fairly low-risk move on its own, especially if he planned to just NK Koba. I think the best outcome is for PP or KIlga to hammer the other in a lynch, seems guaranteed to flip scum that way. Maybe one of them could claim if they are Saint? Not both just one, and we get the other to hammer that one? Feel free to let me know if you think that's a stupid plan, but I think we should use the set up to maximize our chances here.

[Hoctac]

Hoctac is Town.

What was the reasoning behind this read back then, Penpow?

[Hoctac]

Tuxey, I'm just thinking about the odds of it being you + Roses now. I think in my ideal world, I'd want Roses to hammer Penpow. Because Tuxey + Kilga is the least likely pairing imo, unless Kilga comes out planning to bus and hoping no one buys his case. That would be strange.

[Hoctac]

If Penpow is a town super saint and Roses is scum, we'd be down to 2v1 going into the night. Scum knows they can safely kill me. So to win, I'd have to NOT be a blank vig AND correctly choose in [Tuxe, Kilga]. Yikes, hopefully that doesn't happen.

[Hoctac]

Hum de dum. Maybe Penpow should hammer Roses instead of the other way around. Picking a fight with DkKoba upon entering the game does seem like a strange thing for town!Penpow to do, when his partner isn't a competing wagon.

Or MAYBE, Tuxe should hammer Roses then. Am I getting closer?

[Night 3 Roses]

Hum de dum. Maybe Penpow should hammer Roses instead of the other way around. Picking a fight with DkKoba upon entering the game does seem like a strange thing for town!Penpow to do, when his partner isn't a competing wagon.

Or MAYBE, Tuxe should hammer Roses then. Am I getting closer?

if we are the lynch today then either you or Kilga are gonna be hammering us

[Night 3 Roses]

(ico is back baby)

[Night 3 Roses]

Tuxey, I'm just thinking about the odds of it being you + Roses now. I think in my ideal world, I'd want Roses to hammer Penpow. Because Tuxey + Kilga is the least likely pairing imo, unless Kilga comes out planning to bus and hoping no one buys his case. That would be strange.

why are you assuming we will hammer PP?

[Night 3 Roses]

Tuxe... I gotta see more from you. You've been careful, you agreed with me saying Kilga is town, and you townread me, do does that mean you think it's Roses+Penpow?

Well, I agreed with your logic that he seemed to have no likely partners, but that doesn't stop Kilga's slot being the scummiest on its own. Though yes, I do see the logic in a Roses+Penpow team. Going back to day 1, if we're thinking the NK was Koba it does have me reread the interaction. While scum probably would be less likely to take that difficult path, it was also a fairly low-risk move on its own, especially if he planned to just NK Koba. I think the best outcome is for PP or KIlga to hammer the other in a lynch, seems guaranteed to flip scum that way. Maybe one of them could claim if they are Saint? Not both just one, and we get the other to hammer that one? Feel free to let me know if you think that's a stupid plan, but I think we should use the set up to maximize our chances here.

wtf is the logic in us + PP?
if this is literally Tux + PP then fuck me and call me Jingles lol

[Night 3 Roses]

If Penpow is a town super saint and Roses is scum, we'd be down to 2v1 going into the night. Scum knows they can safely kill me. So to win, I'd have to NOT be a blank vig AND correctly choose in [Tuxe, Kilga]. Yikes, hopefully that doesn't happen.

you should reread the rules, or am i misreading them?

scum can just roleblock you and make a kill, no?