Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Blair]

It's called an inference. I have no choice but to make them when you say things like "Why don't you follow your own advice" with no clarification whatsoever.

Don't like it? Then stop being enigmatic and say what you mean.

[LicketyQuickety]

It's called an inference. I have no choice but to make them when you say things like "Why don't you follow your own advice" with no clarification whatsoever.

Don't like it? Then stop being enigmatic and say what you mean.

I've stated what I mean pretty explicitly. You misrepping me and generally cherry picking what I am saying isn't the best defense.

[Blair]

Yeah we're done here. You're impossible to talk to you. You're either lying or you think you're being really clear and then screaming at me when you aren't. Either way, not worth it.

[LicketyQuickety]

Yeah we're done here. You're impossible to talk to you. You're either lying or you think you're being really clear and then screaming at me when you aren't. Either way, not worth it.

My case on you is pretty clear.

[Blair]

For all interested parties, here is Quick's pretty clear case:

GLITCH!!!

You said NOTHING about GLITCH!!! The Scummiest person in the game right now!!!

Your discredit shows you have ulterior motives AND you HAVEN'T actually addressed a single point I have made. Instead, you have sidestepped the issue completely.

You made zero mention on how caught up you are, you made zero mention of keeping the game going based on getting better reads on inactive slots, zero argument for how there are diminishing returns on the gamestate when content isn't in a state of diminishing returns.

You also have VERY LITTLE to show for your read on Cat considering you are ready to consolidate wagons for lynch. I've demonstrated Glitch's case on Cat is right shit. You are just pushing the "second to best counter wagon". Cat's content is GOOD. I wouldn't lynch that slot today and I don't think if you are Town that you would be pushing that slot either. They truthfully have better content then you do in this game.

You have altogether completely stopped Scum hunting OR you were never Scum hunting in the first place. You SAY you don't want to end the Day early, but when I press you on this, you try and turn it around on me and say I shouldn't care about ending the Day early. And this reasoning is based on some pretty shitty assumptions about how I play this game based on where I have played??? Get your head examined because this is borderline retarded. I've been here since 2015 and I magically care about the game producing information overload based on me playing on MU and other sites with 48 hour phases where there are a lot more Posts/Hour? Go back and read that last sentence again with the knowledge that those sites rarely if ever actually end day early regardless of how much content is actually produced in them D1. I know it and Blair knows it due to her familiarity with MU: Those sites with 48 hour Day phases almost always feel like there isn't enough content to make an informed lynch on D1. And I can't stress this enough... BLAIR KNOWS that games with 48 hour phases need all the help they can get on D1 to produce content. So IF Blair is assuming that I come from those sites, then Blair knows that I would literally NEVER be in favor of ending D1 early. AND Blair has had every opportunity to tell me and the rest of the game that consolidating wagons doesn't mean we are actually ending the day. But Blair remains quiet on that because she knows that when you consolidate wagons too early it's almost always on Town.

SO NO, THAT'S NOT ACTUALLY AN ANSWER TO WHAT I WAS INQUIRING ABOUT.

Blairs push on Cat is beyond horrible - especially when Cat has demonstrated a high level of competence for their reads and the development there in.

Also, BLAIR SAID NOTHING OF GLITCH WHO IS OBJECTIVELY THE SCUMMIEST PERSON IN THE GAME! Why? Their reasons for voting Cat are as smelly as Gehenna and when pressed on this, they double down and don't reevaluate, their initial vote on me felt like newb Town, but it was literally so bad that they had to say, "oops, did I do that?" None of the reasons that Glitch has given for their SRs and votes have even been with a competent understanding of the game we call Mafia which is literally the only reason people are NOT voting there. Because people think it's TSTBS. Guess what? Some people really ARE that bad at this game that they would give reasons that are not even valid to vote someone and when proven wrong they literally just stop posting. You can't make this up! People are literally thinking to themselves, "There is no way they are that bad as Scum that they would give those reasons and stick with them." But they are actually that bad. Anyone with a Mafia IQ of 85 could be able to tell you that Glitch is never getting NKed.

Which brings me to the real meat of this story.. Why exactly IS Blair content with the gamestate and doesn't mind consolidating wagons while they are not caught up? It's because Scum are currently in control of the game. Upon reflection, Truth is probably Scum with Blair. Blair hasn't weighed in at all on Truth's claim and that means that Blair feels perfectly fine with the claim. Why would Blair, a 10 year vet, be perfectly okay with a miller mason claim? Wouldn't you expect Blair to at the very least do a bit of poking around with that claim to get some sort of way to measure how the claim stacks up on it's own? Oh, wait, Blair isn't caught up in this game at all. So why exactly do they feel perfectly comfortable with trying to get a wagon on Cat, who has demonstrated a level of competence of this game that Glitch couldn't dream of? This whole, "This is fine" montra that Blair has found themselves in shows a distinct apathy that is just prevalent enough to push to end the Day while not really feeling like they actually need to push SRs. This sort of, "let's get ready to end the day.. I know Cat has good content, but I honestly just want to consolidate wagons so we don't have to worry about no-lynching." Meanwhile, Norway keeps getting Scummier and Scummier with every post. He got a lot of rope for his tunnel on GL, but now that GL has demonstrated pretty clear Town mindset I am wondering if Norway was simply putting up a strong front so he would get TR on D1 so he can push his weight around later in the game with the understanding that people are not going to change their first blush impressions of them as being too bold to be Scum. At first, Norway was sheeping me in a pretty obvious way. Now that I have him as solid Town he starts to seriously deviate from my reads when he KNOWS I have some pretty potent early game TRs. It also makes sense that he would try and make a splash and get an early TR from me so he doesn't have to worry about me calling for his lynch when there is a claim and a CC outside of himself and I still am calling for his lynch. This happened exactly as I have stated it in our last completed game together. Another option is that osuka is Scum and Blair is trying to distract from a wagon on osuka without actually overtly saying they think osuka is Scum. That would mean Blair is chainsawing Cat at this point which seems to be the most rational motive for Blair at this point.

TL;DR: It makes sense that Blair is totally fine with consolidating the wagons and ending the Day at this point because as Scum she would know her Scum buddies are in no real danger and Blair wants to keep it that way. That leads me to thinking Cat is most certainly Town based on Blair chainsawing Cat to try and get a shot at lynching a good Town player D1 instead of Scummy Scum fuck osuka who admits I have a pretty rock solid case against him at this point and his content has dropped severely since I gave my psychoanalytic read on him. I also have outside reasons for suspecting Norway as he initially was sheeping me hard but then ended up having pretty much the exact opposite reads that I have. Glitch remains someone I would lynch if for nothing else then to see who if anyone else would vote there given there are very reasonable motives to get that slot out of the game as Town.

P-Edit: Blair was saying to consolidate wagons to Cat, osuka, and ND. Suddenly Blair has a change of heart for literally zero reason stated whatsoever. This is Scum and I hope people can see that.

VOTE: Blair

If you find it persuasive feel free to pick out parts of it to discuss with me or sheep it and vote for me.

If you feel like Quick started typing that after I said I was done talking to him until something relevant came up and he just started slamming his forehead into his keyboard until 1276 came out, please consider voting for GuiltyLion.

A vote for GuiltyLion is a vote for a better tomorrow, etc., etc.

[Truth]

Did you look at GuiltyLion's meta argument, Blair? He said he posts a lot less often as mafia, and I believe him, as this is something that can be disproven easily if it not true, and seems like a risky gamble for mafia to make.

Could you check his last few mafia games to see if it is true and his activity is much reduced in those games?

I also think you are slightly suspicious for trying to move the votes away from osuka. If osuka is mafia, I will be suspicious of you being mafia with him.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Could you check his last few mafia games to see if it is true and his activity is much reduced in those games?

I’ll confirm it for you. It is most definitely true.

[GuiltyLion]

I mean you can also just ignore my meta argument and just look at the fact that Blair's entire case on me amounts to me pressuring NDMath while voting osuka, she claims to think I'm scum for not selling osuka harder during that period. Which is ridiculous, townies don't need to case their suspects in every post, Nauci had already brought up several damning points against osuka, I had added my own about how his claim about my meta was made up.

I haven't gone back and checked yet but I'm not sure osuka was even really posting in between my vote and times where I was pushing on NDMath, if he was it certainly wasn't to do anything that impacted the thread in any meaningful way. So what does Blair expect town!me to be doing in that situation, throwing out snarky one-liners about how he's still scum?

He's also still the leading wagon, so it's not like I especially need to be championing his lynch right now or anything

[NorwegianboyEE]

I’ve had scumgames where i did high activity even if i usually post less though. So i don’t want to treat it as an absolute thing.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It’s 03:00 AM and i’m playing mafia. Summer really fucks with one’s day night rythm doesn’t it.

[GuiltyLion]

You could also be town, but that leaves the question of why a townie would park his vote on one player then immediately switch gears and zero in on someone else.

like to answer this as succinctly as possible - because I still felt I was gaining new information/content from my back and forth with NDMath, whereas with osuka I didn't feel a need to be talking with him or selling a lynch there to other townies.

anyway I'm off work so I'm gonna go back and remember which posts I wanted to jam with before my afternoon pop in

[Blair]

Did you look at GuiltyLion's meta argument, Blair? He said he posts a lot less often as mafia, and I believe him, as this is something that can be disproven easily if it not true, and seems like a risky gamble for mafia to make.

Could you check his last few mafia games to see if it is true and his activity is much reduced in those games?

I also think you are slightly suspicious for trying to move the votes away from osuka. If osuka is mafia, I will be suspicious of you being mafia with him.

I'm 100% okay with you suspecting me if osuka flips scum. I don't think he will.

I'm reluctant to go down the meta rabbit hole for GuiltyLion's activity being alignment-indicative since he has already asked us not to push that angle on the basis that he has just been genuinely busy lately - and believe him. This site has committed to a cultural stance of trusting each other not to lie about IRL events for in-game advantages and I broadly agree with that stance.

[GuiltyLion]

actually going back to where I last posted yesterday made me remember that literally my most recent post was this, which Blair just entirely ignored when deciding to case me?

I still like the Osuka vote, none of his latest bursts of post felt all that town and this one was really bad shade-for-sake-of-shade

[Blair]

He's also still the leading wagon, so it's not like I especially need to be championing his lynch right now or anything

Is this true? I mean, obviously the "leading wagon" part is true, but is the "still" part accurate? I seem to remember that wagon being ranked lower until pretty recently - maybe I'm misremembering, but I feel like the osuka-wagon blitz to #1 was a pretty sudden event.

[Blair]

actually going back to where I last posted yesterday made me remember that literally my most recent post was this, which Blair just entirely ignored when deciding to case me?

I still like the Osuka vote, none of his latest bursts of post felt all that town and this one was really bad shade-for-sake-of-shade

It was sort of the crux of my argument that you suddenly became aware of your incongruous behavior and attempted to correct it recently.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You keep saying the Osuka wagon grew too fast. Can you expand on which votes bother you and why you feel that way Blair?

[Blair]

CSF's bothered me a lot (of course I could be tunneling there). It was like she saw an opening after you mentioned osuka could be scum and she started pushing it. Then you jumped in, which I mentioned earlier gave me pause when I was otherwise townreading you.

Nauci literally just joined it now, but that one bothers me less because she has a clear, long standing progression on osuka.

[Blair]

Truth's vote was so awkward I sort of blocked it out of my memory until just now when I went back to look.

[GuiltyLion]

Now osuka is a very easy wagon to park a vote on. This is because a) he has been tunneling truth for being stupid, which I think is NAI but also easy to point to as "scummy" and b) his posting other than that hasn't felt super engaged, which again i find NAI on day 1. And c) one of the most active players in the game just said they'd be fine with a wagon there.

I think you make a decent point here about how a lot of the points on osuka

may

be NAI, but what do you think about this post from Nauci specifically:

@GuiltyLion you were in that newbie game with Osuka, so what's your take on my read?

I totally agree with it and am glad you cased it as explicitly as you did. If I'm trying to be charitable to osuka, mayyyybe he might have gotten lazier over the years since it's a somewhat old game, but that doesn't negate the fact that his shade towards you (as well as myself) here WAS vague and he's clearly someone with enough experience/capability to bring receipts.

The newbie game Osuka and I were in just finished, and even though Osuka replaced in halfway through D1 and out halfway through D2, there was significantly more meaty content there. He was wrong about all of it because he was 700% sure that scum was 2 people who definitely weren't scum, but when he raged at them he was still quoting and explaining his reasons more.

Spoiler: Osuka Posts from Newbie 2004

Unless feather is super manipulative, it doesn't seem like he would be coordinated enough to pretend to be new, ask all these pertinent questions, and play the scum role so well. For that I think he is VT.
Gibus is sus to me because of all the vote switching and random accusations. I stand by my opinion about it being sloppy and thats all I can come up with atm. My thought is whether or not you're scum in a newbie game, you don't want to draw attention, by trying to be casual that person becomes more suspicious by their fake nonchalance. of course, in opposition to this is people who don't interact are also sus so like ironcat said, its a catch 22. So if the scum is nervous about appearing one way or the other, it might be easiest to be quiet for the time being.
speaking of ironcat, im on the fence. Post #193 he says he’s okay with votato’s disagreement. I am less suspicious of people who aren’t afraid of standing in opposition to someone like votato who has strong, and well thought out opinions because it reads to me that he isn’t trying to cover up something – his opinion is what it is. His exchange with fish made him look even less suspicious, perhaps only in contrast to whatever was going on with fish and his frustrations. Then again, #243 was a childish rebuttal, but that doesn’t scream scum to me necessarily.
I don’t know how to read brass, votato or Lilith. Brass and votato seem genuinely interested in seeing the game progress in a dynamic manner, while helping people learn along the way. if one of them happen to be scum, they haven’t seemed to let on that they are going to take advantage of people’s feelings of ‘trust worthiness’….yet, but I guess that’s the point, right? Lol.
Lilith hasn’t posted much lately, has she? I wonder why. Ive been suspicious of her without being able to collect my thoughts or any evidence (if in fact there is any) against her yet.
Copycat hasn’t struck me as one way or the other. We also don’t have any point of reference from the previous slot holder…lililil (right?) I wonder if, if that was a scum role cat stepped into, lililil wasn’t active at all before, so im assuming the scum buddy wouldn’t have had help from him either…makes me wonder what it was like as a lone scum and who was looking for a replacement.

that read on feather is a fucking stretch and a half, innit

this feels like a post that's supposed to look like it's good content, but it strikes me as particularly shallow. very noncommittal and truly exceptionally bland

that puts copykat on L-2. Nauci how do you reconcile your top 2 scum reads scum reading each other? Are we just bussing hard? Pretty meh catchup, speaking of iioa

this is completely out of touch with reality and the fact that his two scumreads scumread each other means nothing. Her post was pretty okay and yours is a sad accusation based on a fabricated premise

i liked you for town before but now I'm not so sure

she's trying to pocket me by pointing out me being upset was justified.

Actually I was just saying you were justified as an indirect dig at the post you were talking about because I had run out of direct ways to express it

this strikes me as a particularly snarky way to dodge a response. very odd

I'm sorry I wasn't clear

Oh thats ok, i actually have a list, in my head. So maybe not a list, but an idea.

And newbie as in replacement. I even had that word in my head instead of newbie to be more clear with my objection, but you know, stoned.

this is an obvious attempt at amending a previous post where he said something ("leave the newbie alone, you monsters") and got himself in a bad place ("why are you protecting the guy?"). have you ever seen anyone use "newbie" to mean someone who just replaced in? I know i have never

i'm not quibbling over words. I'm saying that what you did and what I did aren't the same and particularly, the

way

you did what you did and handled yourself when prompted was the primary reason for concern

to elaborate, 758 is weird but it is an order of magnitude retroactively more weird after 762

i'm not sure how i feel about formerfish at the moment. i have thoughts there but im a bit conflicted

more specifically, he clearly knows how to play the game and that kind of play, in general, is nai. I don't see anything glaring so far but i have to admit to not having delved too deep into his play at this point. regardless, he's a bad lynch d1 because if he is town (and statistically, that's bound to be the case) he's definitely someone i wanna have alive

Which reminds me, @Osuka can you explain your read on freddie? All I can find in your ISO is that you called one of her posts bland? Also, are you scumreading formerfish?

i'll get you some post numbers from freddie in a second here, i'm still catching up to the thread.

345 is a bad post that

seems

good at first glance. it's not quite iioa but it's very shallow and feels fabricated, almost as if she was forcing herself to form something remotely resembling a natural read

585 is bad wifom. like wifom and bad reasoning had a kid and it was a terrible, terrible post

886 is a shit tier dodge

893 is unnecessarily defensive and clearly uncomfortable

898 is apologetic. the apologetic, almost friendly tone can be found in other posts and it screams "let me be your friend, fellow townie"

937 is full of bad justifications for bad decisions

969 brings back the apologetic tone in full force

i made the same comment about 345 because i was prompted about it. the way you behave is more than enough justification for a scumread, and 993 is prima facie of a scum role PM

you're WAY too defensive in a deflective way, characteristic of newbscum. talk about substance - what is the substance in your post (and with an omgus to top it off, no less)? I don't have to post a paragraph full of adjectives to justify my scumread, because your posts and tone speak for themselves

to all the newbies in the game, 993 does not come from town. I'm 100% ready to lynch this slot now

Here's a smattering of the posts from that game which I thought were significantly meatier, and I scrolled less than halfway through Osuka's 206 posts made over the course of two half game days. Even when Osuka is calling things "weird," he brought some receipts, to steal your phrase. Not only did he react to specific posts constantly, he reacted to them almost immediately in real time instead of making accusations about posts from dozens of pages ago without pointing out specifically which ones.

A ton of the 206 posts in that game were fluff or calling posts stupid like he did here, but there was, IMO, way more substance on top of those.

I also kinda disagree that the tunneling on Truth is inherently NAI - as I've pointed out several times this game, it often looks to me like osuka is faking the level of outrage/anger he feels towards Truth's posts, and going above and beyond to constantly shade Truth even when it doesn't take a lot of effort to see where Truth's posts make sense from town PoV.

Holy shit and until the post cat made voting osuka he had not mentioned him as a scumread as far as I can tell. So osuka has gone from a gut townread, in a TvT with quick according to cat scratch, to now being cats big scumread.

Now as for the reason for voting osuka, cat scratch cited sheeping Nauci. Nauci isn't even voting osuka, he's voting NDmath, so you're sheeping someone who isn't even convinced of their own point. Id like cat to elaborate on the osuka read, is it just the push on nauci you find scummy cat?

I actually find a lot of times I reverse on my super early game gut town reads, cause some scum put in a bunch of effort in the first few pages to make sure they start okay, then fade off when the game actually gets going. That fits osuka's play pretty well here. I also don't think it's unrealistic to be convinced/swayed by your townreads if they've been pushing it to the degree Nauci has. It's clear with context that Nauci always still scumread osuka and didn't switch because she was suddenly less sure or anything.

[GuiltyLion]

Osuka is getting sucked into the same slap fights I would have probably been sucked into myself if I had subbed in earlier. The optics for these are pretty terrible all around, and I would expect scum to be self conscious enough to know that and take the high ground for town points instead.

also on this, I feel osuka has been picking slap fights with easy targets (Truth) and gets far more quiet/meek whenever a more aggro/experienced player like Nauci or myself calls him out.

[NDMath]

ND has this kind of strong Town assurance in themselves that is kinda intangible, but I don't see it coming from Scum the vast majority of the time. I also like his attack on GL. I might revisit that read based on what ND said because it seems I missed a few finer points about GL and might have TR GL a bit too early. GL did seem to have a few Townie posts, which is why I was TRing him, but even GL himself says that's not really a good reason to TR him. Then again, this could be ND going after GL as a low effort way to ride out the game till a later date when things become more "serious". Still, I'm not sure that is really a reason to SR him. His points are not bad, he's just not as aggressive at this earlier part in the game that I would like.

In any case, I feel less sure about Osuka being Town. I find the arguments against him seem legit and he's still voting me for who really knows what reason at this point. @NDMath, what do you think of osuka?

Nauci

seems

Town to the naked eye, but I am not seeing anything that makes me think it isn't something Scum could post - especially considering Nauci's high use of meta as a playstyle. Not going to just assume Nauci is Town just because they have meta dove people.

Norway keeps Town telling but I can't say the same about popo. popo seems to be making easy posts and that is not at all what I remember from them in Fungi Mafia. I also want to point out that this sort of "easy playing" seems more associated with his Scum game seen in Mini Normal 2143.

mav still seems pretty solidly Town in my eyes. His questions are good and he gives pretty good analysis when he is here.

Truth remains a gigantic headache that I really don't want to deal with until later.

Candy Shop is... where are they anyways? They probably site flaked but I don't feel like checking atm. I just checked. His last post was on the 19th.

CSF I have as pretty solidly Null.

That leaves Looker. Overall, the little content he has provided seems semi Town motivated, but I wouldn't exactly bet the game on him being Town at this point. So a shade more Town then Scum I would say, but that read can very well change at any point.

And Glitch I hope everyone knows I find their content completely underwhelming and they don't even really bring that great of analysis in the game like mav and don't have the same kind of strong Town presence like ND while looker is barely playing it looks like. Not feeling good about Glitch at all. I wish a person or two would vote Glitch with me because I think that is where the money is rn.

I don't view aggressiveness as important outside of endgame.

Osuka I am bewildered more than anything. The extent of his truth interaction doesn't make sense to me for either alignment. There's nothing wrong in the nature of the attacks on him but the points are fully in his control and scum!osuka probably(?) wouldn't have played into that situation in the first place. (Grant, I have no experience with osuka.)

Looker is both looking to solve and responding to scum reads on him in a way of wanting to fix it, which are both town indicative. His questions also have more town motivation/thought behind them than his scum game I recently played in. The percentages are townie in that they convey the intended meaning and than some.

Blair's iso isn't anywhere near as bad as I thought it was.

Glitch looks like a scum player who makes attacks on not-necessarily-scummy inconsistencies and similar.
VOTE: Glitch
Like you said nothing which rings as town-motivated analysis.

So he's either mason or mafia. He isn't be the hang today, so I'm not gonna give further comment until it's a day we could realistically hang him.

scumslip?

Elaborate, I don't get it.

By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

this is weird also? what in particular does it support ?

The thought that I'm not scumhunting this game. Since I didn't bother to pretend to scumhunt in my scum game.

Fyi I just finished a scum game, mini theme 2145.
By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

So then why are you playing this game the same way you played your scum game if you're not scum in this game? This post is either town, or caught scum. The only slot that wouldn't post this is lurking or undetected scum.

So... Do you think I'm more so caught scum as scum and thus scumlean, or more so undetected scum as scum and thus probtown?
Either way you phrased it weird.

By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

Ok? So you are scum.
Well that was easy.

Your way of pressuring is annoying in a not the intent of pressure type of way.

Towniest
Quick Norwee
Looker
Catscratch
Mavs popo nauci --null
osuka Blair
Guilty Glitch

[GuiltyLion]

Is this true? I mean, obviously the "leading wagon" part is true, but is the "still" part accurate? I seem to remember that wagon being ranked lower until pretty recently - maybe I'm misremembering, but I feel like the osuka-wagon blitz to #1 was a pretty sudden event.

I also have not gone back to check, but my memory of events is roughly like this:

1) GL leaves popopopopopopopopopopopopopopopop wagon to join promising osuka counterwagon cased well by Nauci, popopoppooppopopop was still leading at this point I think but I had changed my mind on him
2) GL continues to engage with / pressure NDMath because NDMath engaged in a 1v1 with me - osuka still has more votes
3) NDMath starts to get votes from other players, including Nauci, I give a prodge in 1018 because I haven't had time to read everything and think
4) Once I do return to the game, NDMath wagon is larger but I had reversed my read on him due to 986, and stick with my osuka vote and reiterate a call for votes there

Judging by your posts, it sounds like you think I should have switched to NDMath at some point between 2 and 4, but I don't think I was ever active

and

scumreading NDMath by the time he became a larger wagon

[popopopopopopo]

Naucis meta case on osuka is actually decent. I didn't like cat scratch's jump on the wagon, but there are some valid points and I don't think it's a bad choice if I can't get more csf enthusiasm

[popopopopopopo]

It's kinda weird how active the day has been but no one's been run up to L-1 or even close. scum are playing passively?

[Glitch]

Today was a hectic day irl and I'm struggling to keep up with so much to read but I'll be able to get fully caught up and post tomorrow afternoon/evening.