Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Blair]

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

Two problems with that:

1. You'd have to already know Miller was a viable option in the first place to even CHECK the wiki page for Miller (I bring this up because you are playing the "Ignorant Newbie" card.

2. The VERY NEXT sentence on the wiki states that claiming Miller makes you more likely to be voted out or shot by a Vigilante.

You claimed that the entire reason you lied about being a Miller was to get yourself nightkilled, but then tacked a Miller claim onto it that made the nightkill extremely unlikely.

It makes more sense to me that you claimed Miller so you wouldn't be investigated, and tacked Mason onto it so you wouldn't be lynched.

[Blair]

*lied about being a Mason

[Blair]

His VT claim makes sense to me because I can't imagine Truth having played the way he has all game and be scum that pulled this crazy mason fake claim just to last to the end. I'm open to cases on it but Idk. That + his relationship with popo just rule out a lot of my willingness to consider him scum.

Blair what are your thoughts on this? Truth is ridiculous but have a hard time seeing him as scum because of his relationship with popo. Do you bekievenhis miller mason claim or his relationship with po are AI?

"His relationship with Popo"? He was scumreading Popo but didn't help lynch him. How is that town indicative?

The Miller fake claim (we now know it was fake, that is an important data point) is objectively alignment indicative, yes. The only discernible motivation to lie about being a Miller is to avoid being investigated - something a Vanilla Townie would not be afraid of.

Also, I'm sorry, but I 100% do not buy that he signed up for this game, received a Vanilla Townie role, and then decided he was out of his depth and immediately (in his very first post!) lied about his role

to try to get himself nightkilled

. Way more likely that he just didn't want to get investigated.

[Truth]

I am not ignorant. I've read through a lot of the roles on the wiki because I found it interesting. You will see that I am telling the truth, Blair.

[Blair]

Your story makes no sense.

"I joined this game, then got a VT role pm and decided I wanted to get nightkilled immediately, so I claimed Miller."

Either you're lying about your internal logic as town for... some reason... still... or you're lying about your internal logic as scum.

[Deimos27]

Official Vote Count 3.02

Charles Sanders Peirce (1839-1914) was an American philosopher considered the father of pragmatism. He introduced the notion of fallibilism in epistemology, claiming that knowledge does not require certainty.

---

Elimination

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to hammer.

Dunnstral

(2): Truth, NDMath

NDMath

(2): Glitch, Dunnstral

Nauci

(1): Looker

Not Voting

(2): Nauci, Blair

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-07-17 21:08:51).

Mod notes:

• 

[/area]

[Nauci]

Unless the Popo wagon was all town, there is scum between {Looker / Dunnstral}

Looker voted for Popo before I counterclaimed, based on Norwe's claim, and never moved his vote after that. He also opposed my plan to leave Popo alive and let the real vig shoot him if he's lying. I would think scum would favor this plan, as if buys them time and they may have had roles to interfere with the town vig.

Dunnstral supported leaving Popo alive but opposed the part of my plan where we tell Popo where to shoot. He ultimately joined the Popo wagon, but only after I counterclaimed. This is pretty much exactly what I would expect from scum in this scenario.

VOTE: Dunnstral

C-1

Blair you are so extremely not allowed to put anyone at -1 in a game with Dunnstral come on lol

[Nauci]

I've had the same thought about Blair but honestly she is their most likely target tonight and there's just no way town has any protecting roles left for tonight.

Hmm this feels like a weird thing to be so confident about

[Nauci]

Nauci when you asked about either of Truths claims did you mean his Miller Mason claim and his VT claim? His VT claim makes sense to me because I can't imagine Truth having played the way he has all game and be scum that pulled this crazy mason fake claim just to last to the end. I'm open to cases on it but Idk. That + his relationship with popo just rule out a lot of my willingness to consider him scum.

I was skimming some of Truth's ISO and lean on the side of he had scum buddies to interact with and didn't fake the entiiiiire dynamic of being in a thread with other people because otherwise it is just too fucking wild for me to believe

I find it far more plausible that his scum buddies were berating him repeatedly for his mad gambit and he was talking about his "mason buddies" interactions with him as a result of this

Popopopopo stepped in to just briefly comment "we're not lynching the claim" while probably ranting at him in their PT seems reasonable to me because Truth had SO many posts taking about the others' views and based on his ability to interpret game state and mechanics, idk if he could spin all of that whole-cloth.

[Nauci]

internal logic

Blair I have bad news for you...

[Dunnstral]

Dunnstral supported leaving Popo alive but opposed the part of my plan where we tell Popo where to shoot. He ultimately joined the Popo wagon, but only after I counterclaimed. This is pretty much exactly what I would expect from scum in this scenario.

I supported vig going unclaimed and shooting him during the night; a tactic which would have probably worked since popo was night 3 jailkeeper. I wasn't trying to save him like you're suggesting here. It was unclear whether he was fake claiming or real vig but he seems to have been baiting you out into the open and you took it

[Dunnstral]

Chill out, when I started posting I was still getting a feel for the game and then the popopo stuff happened and I got sidetracked talking about that. Today I'm examining everyone with a smaller pool of players

This is my response to that

Mafia Vigilante is not a normal role and SK isn't in minis, so Blair must be town vig

Wrong answer.

I have

intent to hammer

on Dunnstral. I'd really like to hear Lookers thoughts on why he prefers Truth or Nauci over Dunnstral at this point.

Why?

[Dunnstral]

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

Why were you looking at the page for Miller if you're vanilla town?

[Dunnstral]

Blair let me know if you want me to claim my role. I disagree that what you wrote in 1990 points to me as scum

[Dunnstral]

Chill out, when I started posting I was still getting a feel for the game and then the popopo stuff happened and I got sidetracked talking about that. Today I'm examining everyone with a smaller pool of players

This is my response to that

Mafia Vigilante is not a normal role and SK isn't in minis, so Blair must be town vig

Wrong answer.

I have

intent to hammer

on Dunnstral. I'd really like to hear Lookers thoughts on why he prefers Truth or Nauci over Dunnstral at this point.

Why?

I would have come around to a vote on NDMath the previous day if Blair hadn't cc'd. He is playing to his scum meta.

[Blair]

Both Nauci and I have voted for you and then unvoted to avoid a quickhammer, and Glitch stated intent, so you should probably claim whether I want you to or not.

Personally, I'd prefer you only claim if you think it will change someone's reads or our understanding of the game state.

[NDMath]

I value voice way more than my vote in most cases. "Mafia can easily hide behind the curtain of withholding their vote to try to stay under the radar." I can't not be voting day 1 without people screaming about it so this point really doesn't stand.

I don't understand how it wouldn't be a double standard to scumread me for finally voting. In 986 I was comparing my scum game to people's interpretation of my play this game.

I tried getting more information from popo to sort his claim. I argued on your scumcase of catscratch. When debating lion I was further evaluating my read on him. I'm curious how you would define, displaying scumhunting?

Light scumread, realized my other scumreads weren't gonna be hung today so I switched over.

I was his best chance of lasting to night? He was also scumreading me earlier so that would look more consistent. Why would popo intentionally play poorly as you're proposing?

I don't understand what your point is when you say, "I can't not be voting day 1 without people screaming about it." Can you clarify?

Valuing voice over vote is a nice thought in the abstract, but that still doesn't make my point moot. When given a task and two tools with which to complete it, choosing not to use the second one to it's fullest extent is not the best idea, particularly when not using your vote is a weak scum move.

Regarding your scumhunting. You said you tried getting more info from popo to sort his claim. Are you talking about 1690? Can you tell me why 1690 is AI?

Whenever I don't vote at the start of the game some people scumread me for it. My first game a scum even tried to pressure me into voting. (It worked oops.)

I argue that the second tool had no utility at that specific point in time. You keep saying "it's a weak scum move" but that wouldn't/doesn't make it scum indicative.

It probably isn't by itself considering I was confused why no one had asked it yet but I added it to the list because I wasn't sure what you were specifically asking for.

We now know for a fact that

Truth fake claimed Miller.

Do we believe a Townie fake claims Miller? Because conventional wisdom says 'No' for obvious reasons...

*Pretends to have not done that before.*
To me his story makes some sense. Or at least as much as "Hey guys, I'm gonna claim miller mason."

Chill out, when I started posting I was still getting a feel for the game and then the popopo stuff happened and I got sidetracked talking about that. Today I'm examining everyone with a smaller pool of players

This is my response to that

Mafia Vigilante is not a normal role and SK isn't in minis, so Blair must be town vig

Wrong answer.

I have

intent to hammer

on Dunnstral. I'd really like to hear Lookers thoughts on why he prefers Truth or Nauci over Dunnstral at this point.

Why?

I would have come around to a vote on NDMath the previous day if Blair hadn't cc'd. He is playing to his scum meta.

As the only person here who's seen me play both alignments, what would you describe as the differences in my town vs scum meta?

[Nauci]

Personally, I'd prefer you only claim if you think it will change someone's reads or our understanding of the game state.

[Dunnstral]

As the only person here who's seen me play both alignments, what would you describe as the differences in my town vs scum meta?

You make things happen when you're town, and try to coast as scum. That's been my experience so far; this game you've been coasting.

[Blair]

Dunnstral, can you link me to NDMath "making things happen" in a town game? Big if true, because he's been under the radar in this game.

[Dunnstral]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=82699

This game features less wall posting but the posts have more impact up until he gets night killed

[Dunnstral]

that game was moving a lot slower than this one, and he died during night 2, yet he still has more posts there than in this game

I played a scum game with him where he posted more in the mafia pt than he did in thread

[Nauci]

I remember NEE was commenting with the same thing way back on Day 1 about NDM

[Blair]

Nauci, can you serve up some spicy town reads?

I'm pretty much null or scumreading everyone, and that can't be right.

[Nauci]

I don't see why that can't be right, because all of my town reads from D1 have been lynched or shot by now lol

I've only got townreads by POE at this point, because I find it so hard to believe Truth could possibly be a VT that he must be scum, and then probably NDM is my next highest suspect.

My vote on Dunnstral gave me the reaction I wanted to see, because Dunnstral has been scum a hell of a lot and reacts mostly the same way when he is pushed to the brink of lynching, so he can be a slight town lean