Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[ItalianoVD]

Read into whatever you want to, but I’m suspicious of everyone voting for Walter.

[ItalianoVD]

Except Not_Mafia

[callforjudgement]

@callforjudgment: there were 3 other players on your wagon why are they not getting the same speech? Why didn’t they try to persuade people to vote for you?

Again, are you even reading the game?

Tayl0r was pushing me as recently as #561, and started to loosen her read in #602, changing vote in #634. That's the absolute opposite of parking on a wagon and doing nothing (look at how close those numbers are, especially relative to Tayl0r's activity level).
RCEnigma voted for me in #364, started loosening his read in #525, changed vote in #641; and also did look at other slots rather than just me (#396, #397). Despite this, I felt that this was a bit slow / scum-convenient for a read progression; it wasn't a strong enough scumread to vote the slot while other reads needed sorting, but I did mention the read in #547.
SJReaver (=Looker) posted me in #379 and almost immediately flaked out. Not posting when you're gone from the site is hardly suspicious. (Besides, I think this was most likely a pressure/wagoning vote rather than being based on a read, due to the timing and SJReaver's general style)

Acting like I'm being unfair by calling you out in particular is being really oblivious; the way you've been treating my wagon is much scummier than the way anyone else has been, and I'm not the only person to notice this.

(On a side note: suppose the circumstances had been different, and I had singled out you in particular. What conclusions could you draw from this? It sounds like you're implying that you think I'm scum and that everyone else on my wagon is scum alongside me, which is very implausible.)

It’s not my job to make people vote for who I want.

If you are town, and if you have a strong scumread, it

is

your job to make people vote for it.
Because of this, I think most people assumed that you didn't actually have a genuine scumread on me, which is why your complaints about my wagon going nowhere were so surprising.

[Tayl0r Swift]

hmm these four posts really struck me.

Something that's bothering me generally about this game: why is nobody making a serious effort to change the gamestate? In particular, why aren't the

scum

making a serious effort to change the gamestate? In the situation we have at the moment, there are lots of impatient townies looking for something to do, and if someone made a serious and not-ridiculous case on a scumread of theirs, they would likely get a lot of votes following. That seems like a risky situation for scum if the scumread in question is correct, so I would have expected them to start a wagon of their own, or at least push mine harder. I can only see two real possibilities here; either a) scum are happy with the current gamestate (in which case we should be trying to change it!), or b) scum are not in the thread / out of their depth / have no idea what to do and are simply being inactive as a consequence (in which case we may be able to figure out who they are, directly or via PoE).

Meanwhile, I see attempts to shake things up (such as the whole daycop thing we had recently) that don't ultimately have a huge impact as being unlikely to be from scum; it mostly just helps to get information with which to read players more accurately without making long-term changes to the gamestate, and that seems to only help town.

There are still a lot of players who are alone on their wagons. If anyone's interested in persuading me (and the rest of us) to join them, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say! If not, I guess I'll try doing a full reread of everyone in order to come up with an updated reads list, because something has to happen to get this game moving again (I was hoping that the replacements would help in that respect, but that's going too slowly).

So basically what you're trying to say is scum are happy with the current game state. And the current game state includes you being the top wagon. So you must be town because scum are happy with you being the top wagon and doing nothing about it... all I can read this as is a defense of yourself hidden in lots of words.

i still feel like im mindmelding with raya. thats how i feel about cfj's post.

(PEDIT: re #638)

The reasoning should be correct regardless of my alignment. If you think there's a mistake, please point it out so that I can re-evaluate my reasoning.

I agree that it points towards me as town, but that's hardly a reason not to mention it in thread! Of course, it's harder to be objective about something when it points to you as town, so it's possible I have some confirmation bias here (i.e. "this correctly predicts me as town, so it's more likely to be correct"), in which case it's especially important that you point out any flaws in my reasoning! But "this reasoning benefits CFJ and CFJ is making it" is not a reason to ignore it or consider it invalid.

a) its a bad look that you're the one pointing this out. its also interesting that the game is still stale now despite the wagon on you dying off. mostly. more on that later because i guess we do have 2+ pages today. this post just sounds like scum trying to walk through a townie though process.

If cfj is scum I'm gonna shoot myself in the foot because I think I can make a pretty good case there. With that said I can make a good case for anyone not named sjreaver, frog, or Nosferatu.

But I agree the game is stale, I've fallen out of love with it and it's gone nowhere since I've stepped back. I kind of expected that.

VOTE: Italiano

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

Hey Italiano, how's it going? Wagons are great and time to bring fresh energy here.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

yes but why this wagon? i have alarm bells ringing in my head.

[Tayl0r Swift]

People are complaining about something happening but refuse to vote on wagon. Callforjudgment is being scumread. Nosferatu is being scumread. At the moment callforjudgment is the leading wagon so jump on it and we can kill scum. Thrones complaining about wasting time are the ones wasting the time.

You voted me in #382, and since then you've done nothing to push your read on me or try to persuade people to vote for me. (It was unclear from your posting whether you still scumread me or had just left the vote there out of inertia.) Normally, if you're town and think someone's scum, it's worth trying to get more ammunition on them, either to help the wagon get over the line or to help re-evaluate your reads when you discover that maybe a player isn't that scummy after all.

Instead, you've basically been just sitting there, sitting on your read, not even reading the game. (I can tell you aren't reading because you're wrong about the size of wagons: I'm not the leading wagon, but the fourth-largest (third-largest if you ignore the wagon on shelly, which is a joke). The largest wagons are on Walter and on you.)

Also, why haven't you expressed a read since #490? Even if you think you've caught one scum, townies are normally curious about the others as well; and it's nearly always a good idea to allow for the possibility you might be wrong. If nothing else, identifying townies would help make the pool of viable wagons smaller, increasing the chance that your favoured wagon would go through.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

oof yeah i really wanna lynch in cfj, shelly, enigma, or walter. like really really. they cant all be scum but this is some serious opportunism, id be surprised if there arent at least 2 scum in there maybe even all three if walter is scum.

[Tayl0r Swift]

Okay so 573 is where it all started. Then Not_Mafia did his thing. Nosferatu and Frogster followed. Then 579 happened. By the responses in 586 587 & 588, I assumed it was all a joke, but I didn’t know about the roles and whatnot and still don’t (the wiki pages are kinda wack) so I was confused and no one explained it to me so now I’m frustrated.

Then we have 600 (wait for it) Taylor’s post in 602 sounds like scum distancing and fake reading. Then 32 posts later in 634 she votes for Walter which looks like sheeping Not_Mafia.

If the whole claiming nonsense was just jokes and if we’re still joking, then what’s the point of anything?

i mean, you dont think the timing of: a) wagon starts forming on walter b) suddenly the game becomes active and theres a flashwagon thats forming counter to walter on you suspicious? i cant prove that my above posts were made as i read prior to seeing this, but doesnt that suggest that im not merely distancing from cfj but rather trying to evaluate cfj honestly and fairly? isnt reconsidering pro-town?

i voted walter because walter is pretty scummy and its a viable wagon. i left the naked vote to see what reactions would be. the counterwagon and sudden flurry of activity suggest that my walter vote was a good one.

[Tayl0r Swift]

also worth noting that italiano is taking this opportunity of pressure on him and plausible counterwagon and NOT being opportunistic.

[shellyc]

In case this is not clear, I have finished reading the game.

[shellyc]

yes but why this wagon? i have alarm bells ringing in my head.

1. Italiano is one of the more familiar names on the playerlist, I've played with them in Newbie 2019 / 2025.
2. Looking through Italiano's ISO, I don't really like the Frogsterking FoS by them. Frogster's posting (for now) reads fairly townie to me.

[ItalianoVD]

Again, are you even reading the game?

Tayl0r was pushing me as recently as #561, and started to loosen her read in #602, changing vote in #634. That's the absolute opposite of parking on a wagon and doing nothing (look at how close those numbers are, especially relative to Tayl0r's activity level).
RCEnigma voted for me in #364, started loosening his read in #525, changed vote in #641; and also did look at other slots rather than just me (#396, #397). Despite this, I felt that this was a bit slow / scum-convenient for a read progression; it wasn't a strong enough scumread to vote the slot while other reads needed sorting, but I did mention the read in #547.
SJReaver (=Looker) posted me in #379 and almost immediately flaked out. Not posting when you're gone from the site is hardly suspicious. (Besides, I think this was most likely a pressure/wagoning vote rather than being based on a read, due to the timing and SJReaver's general style)

I’m not interested in engaging in your argument because you’re trying to take it away from the point I’m making...

Votecount 1.10

callforjudgement(4)

~ RCEnigma(52), Looker(49), ItalianoVD(48), Tayl0r Swift(19)

WaltertheDunce10(2)

~ Raya36(43), Not_Mafia(23)

shellyc(2)

~ Nosferatu(61), Frogsterking(26)

Tayl0r Swift(1)

~ callforjudgement(50)

Not_Mafia(1)

~ geraintm(50)

ItalianoVD(1)

~ shellyc(56)

geraintm(1)

~ Gamma Emerald(70)

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ WaltertheDunce10(62)


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2020-09-06 11:18:30)

...which is you were the leading wagon before Taylor switched her vote. You actually had 5 votes on you before the whole daycop claim circus. You’re denying what the facts are to push something else.

Acting like I'm being unfair by calling you out in particular is being really oblivious;

I didn’t say that. Don’t assume.

the way you've been treating my wagon is much scummier than the way anyone else has been, and I'm not the only person to notice this.

Really? Who else?

(On a side note: suppose the circumstances had been different, and I had singled out you in particular. What conclusions could you draw from this? It sounds like you're implying that you think I'm scum and that everyone else on my wagon is scum alongside me, which is very implausible.)

If you singled me out I would’ve just kept playing the game. My conclusions would be that you are either wrong or scum. Where am I implying what you think? If you can quote it, I will handle it as such.

If I scumread you and you are my top scumread, I’m not going anywhere else. You think I dropped a vote and checked out. That’s not it at all. I was actually being scumread for jumping all over the place early on.

If you are town, and if you have a strong scumread, it

is

your job to make people vote for it.

I don’t agree with this. Call it my playstyle, but I don’t do that. That’s why it’s a forum. You place your thoughts down and people are supposed to read them and either agree or disagree with them and then you engage in conversation to clear it up. I also don’t assume.

Because of this, I think most people assumed that you didn't actually have a genuine scumread on me, which is why your complaints about my wagon going nowhere were so surprising.

Why are you speaking for people?

[ItalianoVD]

yes but why this wagon? i have alarm bells ringing in my head.

1. Italiano is one of the more familiar names on the playerlist, I've played with them in Newbie 2019 / 2025.
2. Looking through Italiano's ISO, I don't really like the Frogsterking FoS by them. Frogster's posting (for now) reads fairly townie to me.

yes but why this wagon? i have alarm bells ringing in my head.

1. Italiano is one of the more familiar names on the playerlist, I've played with them in Newbie 2019 / 2025.
2. Looking through Italiano's ISO, I don't really like the Frogsterking FoS by them. Frogster's posting (for now) reads fairly townie to me.

Did you really iso? Caused you would’ve seen 490. Maybe you missed it.

[shellyc]

For reasons I can’t reveal based on the rules, I’m taking Frogsterking out of my scumreads.

Oh I missed that. My bad.

[ItalianoVD]

i mean, you dont think the timing of: a) wagon starts forming on walter b) suddenly the game becomes active and theres a flashwagon thats forming counter to walter on you suspicious? i cant prove that my above posts were made as i read prior to seeing this, but doesnt that suggest that im not merely distancing from cfj but rather trying to evaluate cfj honestly and fairly? isnt reconsidering pro-town?

Sure, you can say that from a town perspective. You have said callforjudgment is your stronger scumread of the two but you are voting Walter. To me it sounds like distancing.

i voted walter because walter is pretty scummy and its a viable wagon. i left the naked vote to see what reactions would be. the counterwagon and sudden flurry of activity suggest that my walter vote was a good one.

That’s fine, I just don’t think he’s scum. I’ve played with Walter and I just have a strong feeling he is townie.

[RCEnigma]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

[ItalianoVD]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

Well we agree, I’d like to flip the entire playerlist, then I’ll feel better.

[Tayl0r Swift]

i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

[shellyc]

i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

CFJ's posting is confusing, but confident and I think I see a town mindset

I'm fine if you want to park your vote on me. My pure town energy will shine through.

[shellyc]

That’s fine, I just don’t think he’s scum. I’ve played with Walter and I just have a strong feeling he is townie.

Is this gut? Which posts made you determine the strong town feeling you get from them?

[Gamma Emerald]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

Good luck : )

[geraintm]

huh?

The unvote didn't alert me. The uptight entrance of "reading" did. The tone to me was almost like reading the thread was a burden to them.

this feels bollocks

Strange entrance by looker but that is one post.
I love reading.
655, is just really weird in that it sorta shows like cfj said a lack of reading/ disengagement.

nope, going to call you out too. nothing about looker's post was odd

frog's post 662 - I don't get this. feels a load of hot air, no real substance

Nosferatu - your posts stink.
you tag raya as scummy - twive, and don't go anywhere with that thought.
random vote on the banana slot
random vote on shelly

how bored are you? are you just randomly interacting with this game? I see no content from you at all. be better

at italiano - I don't get why you single out Not mafia as being ok>

has ayone played with call for judgement before? are their very earnest posts typical? do they normally post like this as town/hide when scum?

oof yeah i really wanna lynch in cfj, shelly, enigma, or walter. like really really. they cant all be scum but this is some serious opportunism, id be surprised if there arent at least 2 scum in there maybe even all three if walter is scum.

don't like posts like this. caling out a third of the game and saying there is likely to be a scum in there...well duh. it feels like a post they can circle back later to to say "look, I always thought they were scum"

i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

nope you don't get to do this. you don't get to say "we aren't allowed to talk about my very cryptic post". why are so many people in this game being like this??

[callforjudgement]

Acting like I'm being unfair by calling you out in particular is being really oblivious;

I didn’t say that. Don’t assume.

Now you're acting like I'm not allowed to try to figure out the motivations behind what you're doing, based on your posts. The whole point of playing Mafia is to try to figure out what everyone else is thinking.

the way you've been treating my wagon is much scummier than the way anyone else has been, and I'm not the only person to notice this.

Really? Who else?

Walter:

655, is just really weird in that it sorta shows like cfj said a lack of reading/ disengagement.

(On a side note: suppose the circumstances had been different, and I had singled out you in particular. What conclusions could you draw from this? It sounds like you're implying that you think I'm scum and that everyone else on my wagon is scum alongside me, which is very implausible.)

If you singled me out I would’ve just kept playing the game. My conclusions would be that you are either wrong or scum. Where am I implying what you think? If you can quote it, I will handle it as such.

If you think "CFJ is attacking Italiano, but not anyone else who voted CFJ" is a scumtell, you need to explain why you think that's a scumtell, also what that says about the rest of the wagon.

If I scumread you and you are my top scumread, I’m not going anywhere else. You think I dropped a vote and checked out. That’s not it at all. I was actually being scumread for jumping all over the place early on.

I still think you dropped a vote and checked out. There is a lot of evidence that you haven't been following what's going on in the game at all (e.g. not realising, that the playerbase were generally looking for other wagons), which is close to the definition of checking out.

The other possibility is that you do have something of a handle on the gamestate, and are pretending not to. Tayl0r thinks that the wagon on you is an attempt to distract from the wagon on Walter. The way I see it, it's more likely that you were trying to shift things back to me in an attempt to restore the previous status quo (of a moderate wagon on me and no viable wagons anywhere else), as a way to stop the wagon on Walter and/or the wagon on you, and incidentally make it much harder for town to get useful reads.

Tayl0r called me out on my "happy with the current gamestate" argument, but it's telling that when there was an attempt to change the gamestate, you tried to put it back the way it was rather than trying to get useful information in the new situation!

If you are town, and if you have a strong scumread, it

is

your job to make people vote for it.

I don’t agree with this. Call it my playstyle, but I don’t do that. That’s why it’s a forum. You place your thoughts down and people are supposed to read them and either agree or disagree with them and then you engage in conversation to clear it up. I also don’t assume.

For one thing, you haven't been placing your thoughts down. You have no useful content between #490 and #611, and due to site rules, #490 isn't useful for reading players other than you, so it's more like #420[/post to #[post]611.

For another thing, knowing who scum is as town and sitting back and thinking "ah, I know who scum is, I'll just wait for town to come to a decision without knowing my resaoning and feel vindicated in postgame after they lose" isn't just a "playstyle thing", it's actually a violation of site rules. You have to play to win; the town win condition is for the town to outlive the scum, and that means that to win you need scum dead, and you need other peoples' votes to do that. If you aren't actively trying to get them, therefore, the only legitimate reason is that you aren't sure enough of the read to push it:

Because of this, I think most people assumed that you didn't actually have a genuine scumread on me, which is why your complaints about my wagon going nowhere were so surprising.

Why are you speaking for people?

I think most players here are intelligent enough to follow my reasoning and come to it independently. Your comment here effectively just insulted the entire playerlist (other than me).

As a more general answer to the same question: you aren't going to get very far in Mafia without trying to figure out what other people are thinking. In many cases it's obvious; sometimes it isn't. The main fundamental difference between town and scum is that town are trying to work out who is guilty, and scum already know; that means that in order to find townies, you follow their thought processes in trying to identify scum (and in order to find scum you realise that those aren't there).

[callforjudgement]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

Why banana? Tayl0r's vote on shelly (=banana) makes sense based on reads stated earlier, but this read is more of a surprise coming from you; you haven't commented much on the banana slot, and what it has posted seems to be thinking along similar lines to you (notably #436 expresses a very similar viewpoint to your #661). Is this just a process-of-elimination read?

[RCEnigma]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

Why banana? Tayl0r's vote on shelly (=banana) makes sense based on reads stated earlier, but this read is more of a surprise coming from you; you haven't commented much on the banana slot, and what it has posted seems to be thinking along similar lines to you (notably #436 expresses a very similar viewpoint to your #661). Is this just a process-of-elimination read?

I have no read either way on banana. They haven't done anything I find scummy or townie. If it doesn't look like town, burn it with fire.

[RCEnigma]

why this vote? ive really seen nothing so far to indicate you had suspicion of italiano, and this isnt a major wagon, so why join here? seems like now that theres a little momentum on walter that you come in and start a counterwagon. interesting.

No one's convinced me that Walter is scum. But I feel like Italiano can flip red by virtue of being outside of my townreads.

I'd like to flip all of Italiano, cfj, taylor, gamma, Raya, banana today and then reevaluate after.

Good luck : )

Hmm, I'm not sure you show this kind of machismo in a possible 1v1 as scum. Especially not when the scum is highly likely to have low scum experience overall.

[Raya36]

i still feel like cfj will be easy to evaluate after some flips, but is a bit messy today. i am suspicious, but dont want to lynch there today. that said, VOTE: shelly

i dont think its in town's best interest to discuss my vote movement at this time, but im happy to discuss the merits of a vote on shelly or the merits of a vote on walter. im guessing raya will understand what i mean based on past mind-melding at the very least.

Not sure I know THE reason but I can see possible ways to read her play as scummy. Don't think I agree though.