Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

do you think Sujimichi had a complete grasp on the state of kitty's reads upon replacing in? it's true, maybe the partner did, but i can't think of who else i would have expected to see killed. kitty was pretty townread by my memory, and was doing a lot of hunting.

I think catboi makes a lot of sense to kill for virtually every other slot. From scumSujimichi POV it makes less sense but isn't terrible.

i understand what you're saying here, but it doesn't convince me wholeheartedly that redtea is town. i believe that they took SIN into account, absolutely, but what exactly prevents scum redtea from also learning from the game, as it relates to you and kitty?

"Natural extension" of the towngame referred to the fact that they were taking it further, in ways that made sense given SIN (more aggressive in their questions+more confident in going to bat for their reads), rather than just trying to emulate their towngame. It's possible to do this as scum, like most things, but it's a lot less likely imo

[Prism]

Why were Tayl0r's reads being underexplained a reason against voting her?

Misinterpreting it. Her having underexplained reads was my sole problem with her, which got her slotted somewhere between 3rd and 5th in my fight preferences. (Wound up as 4th, with Lavender as 3rd) It wasn't enough to beat out you or beeboy who I both actually disliked.

[Prism]

I'm going to get some coffee and then I'm probably going to reread the game from scratch. Is there anything anyone wants me to keep an eye out for?

Also, Chara-Did you think you had unvoted beeboy/Elements before this?

[Prism]

i kinda like Taylor Swift for mafia with Ele

thoughts?

I think it's plausible but don't really think the interactions were strongly indicative. I think Tayl0r's reads are pretty underexplained/questionable, though, and while scum might have bussed it's objectively a pretty horrible play. The result is that I'm looking more off the vote than on.

[Chara]

ooh. would you keep an eye on Puppy's interactions while you read up?

and i don't... fully remember. it's possible i

did

forget, my attention span being what it is, but i think the beeboy vote was more for effect and that i did know where my vote was.

[Hectic]

That's pretty unaligned with Ele-indicative, and I think that's probably not faked. Scum would be a lot more conscious and aware of a vote on their scum buddy from earlier.

[Chara]

wait, no, i think i did forget. i read through my own ISO there. i had no one i wanted to push until i decided to "revote" beeboy.

[Hectic]

Oh, huh, didn't see 1179 but then 1181 came along lol

Hmm

[Chara]

in the interest of fairness, me forgetting important things is NAI. i'm sure there's some difference in how i approach my own memory as scum vs. town, but i don't quite know how it would look.

[Hectic]

Ah, okay. I remember you talking about this in the prequel.

[Chara]

i reread some of Tanner's Lavender and Elements/beeboy progressions and now i'm back to not being sure about him. the Puppy vote also feels rather obvious. i am also paranoid of Puppy but it is a very straightforward direction.

Prism if you're reading this, i'm more interested in Tanner than Puppy. i might do the work myself today if i feel up to it, however.

Hectic: yes. it's not a big problem for me, usually, but i have been called very confusing to play with at times by players other than my scumpartner.

[Hectic]

hello friends, insomnia is kicking my ass

i was gonna vote beeboy (because deadline and i see my vote is still on lavender oops) but i wanna see if it's possible something happens there now

also vaguely agree with 1017

Why the "oops" here? Also, did you meta Lavender at any point yesterday?

Pedit: Yeah, Tanner puts me at unease. I don't really like their Lavender push or thoughts yesterday.

[Tayl0r Swift]

I'm going to get some coffee and then I'm probably going to reread the game from scratch. Is there anything anyone wants me to keep an eye out for?

Also, Chara-Did you think you had unvoted beeboy/Elements before this?

keep an eye out for how cute i am pls

[Prism]

HURT: Elements
i forgot i'd voted Hectic.

I didn't think about it looking last night but this makes at least twice you forgot your vote LMAO

Anyway Chara is town imo, the entire sequence of posts from 121 to 130 is solid to me. At the very least I'm pretty sure they're not Chara given their strong push for genocide right from the start+early attempts at sorting to get it going.

[Prism]

is elements normally this quiet as town?

guess who's never voting tayl0r today

it's me

I know at some point Pooky in the 600s improves but so far I want to turbofight him and just win the game outright

I've got some other stuff I want to circle back to but MT/Redtea also both look town to me.

[Tanner]

i think i'm feeling pretty decently about pooky here. he's good at pushing through misfights, no? i don't think day one happens the way it did. also i think i'm digging the possible scum!taylor theory. speaking of, tweet, help out pls.
[pedit] lol that's funny. is there anything specific about early game pooky or just pushing for spares? maybe i should go check...[/pedit]

There are some curiosities but we can't really take advantage of it (ex. Chara flip serves as a X&Y==Town? two person investigative.

Sparing scum/town is autowin

, sparing two town is not)

can you run this by me real quick?

i find it kinda amusing how both chara and hectic, the two that thought my stances were town!indicative, are now walking back at about the same time

i reread some of Tanner's Lavender and Elements/beeboy progressions and now i'm back to not being sure about him. the Puppy vote also feels rather obvious. i am also paranoid of Puppy but it is a very straightforward direction.

i'm pretty aware how i look, but is there anything specific that's making you walk back right now, after you came a different conclusion last night? anything that i can help you with?

also... not sure what you're implying by my puppy vote being obvious/straightforward? like, is that supposed to be a bad thing?

hello friends, insomnia is kicking my ass

i was gonna vote beeboy (because deadline and i see my vote is still on lavender oops) but i wanna see if it's possible something happens there now

also vaguely agree with 1017

Why the "oops" here? Also, did you meta Lavender at any point yesterday?

Pedit: Yeah, Tanner puts me at unease. I don't really like their Lavender push or thoughts yesterday.

the oops is there because i noticed that i hadn't moved my vote in a while, which rarely happens.

define meta. i looked up that one readslist they gave in their one scumgame a year ago, and the readslist they gave in the crossfire game. i agree that the readslist she gave in this game isn't similar to the readslist she gave in her scumgame. i still stand by what i said. if you're townbinning her for the uncertainty and stream of consciousness, that she gave in one (1) (one) post, after not having a scumgame here in god knows how long and her style somewhat shifting overall, sorry but i'm not going to blindly sheep you.

do you think her overall posting in this game is supposed to be town!indicative for her? i can sit down and read her iso in crossfire if you think it's gonna be worthwhile. but i'm not townbinning her for one post (that i didn't even like in the first place) because someone else did. do you genuinely think it's suspicious that i'm not blindly sheeping you here?

[Prism]

[pedit] lol that's funny. is there anything specific about early game pooky or just pushing for spares? maybe i should go check...[/pedit]

Tonally I don't think he's really trying to sort early, mostly casting off any sort of pressure with gifs, and really only started to take the game seriously when people started pushing for him to be fought. Chara's job Day 1 is just to not get fought and not give away their partner. Cat also brings up Coalition, which at a skim does look similar.

There are some curiosities but we can't really take advantage of it (ex. Chara flip serves as a X&Y==Town? two person investigative.

Sparing scum/town is autowin

, sparing two town is not)

can you run this by me real quick?

If you spare the other vanilla mafia and a town, Chara doesn't flip immediately like they would from two townies. We therefore have it narrowed to two people. We fight anyone Day 4 for a Chara+townflip, return the two spared players, and we have 2 possibilities and a iirc misfight. I don't feel like recounting right now but pretty sure that's how it works..

[Prism]

Puppy I have a list of people who I think are pure and brilliant but I am afraid to share this list for the bad people with evil intentions will surely try to murder us and stop our just quest

I'm really curious to see if this gets followed up on later

[Hectic]

@Tanner:
No, I don't think it's suspicious that you're not blindly sheeping me on her being town. What I do find suspicious is the confidence you put into the push and scumread of her across yesterday. She's like obviously low hanging fruit if you look at any of her games, but you went out of your way to grab that fruit,

my Spicy Hot Take(tm) of the night is that lavender (confidering how difficult they seem to be to wagon) is chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip. this may or may not be the sleep deprevation mixed with unhealthy tunnelling speaking. i'll decide in the morning.
HURT: lavender

This especially feels very bad faith to me. If you'd metaed Lavender, you'd know she very rarely and barely provides reads. The readlist that I got out of her this game is infact a LOT more content and thoughts than she normally gives on day 1. So, pushing her as a "Chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip" is very sus to me.

HURT: Tanner

[Prism]

543 and 544 are the first stronger posts of Pooky's I see. Probably going to have to circle back to this and take a look at the state of votes/reads after I finish reading.

[Hectic]

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

btw this post is why i think elements is chara.

he very conveniently puts himself in the middle of the order - he can't be last because he'd die on D3 - so it's a sneaky middle of the pack insert - he doesn't put himself first because he's a very sneaky chara.

Really? This is a strong post?

It felt really tinfoil to me. It's not like scum!Ele actually believes that he's gonna be able to SPARE those 3, and I doubt the order represented his gameplan of ordering for SPAREs.

[Prism]

It's stronger mostly because it's the first real alignment-oriented stuff Pooky gives, and it's all about Elements scum. Well, second set-the first is just his 3 man scumteam guess.

I wouldn't say it's convincing, I really want to circle back to the circumstances around it after I finish reading.

[Prism]

Do you agree with me that Tayl0r+Chara are unlikely to be scum, Hectic?

[Prism]

So far on this reread (Page 23) I have:

Town
======
Chara
Tayl0r
Morning

Probably town
======
redtea
Puppy (Sheeping Chara on Elements was p. good, 443 is half good (semi-serious) half bad ("Who wants to hear why?" Looking ahead a bit in ISO swapping to Hectic isn't great in hindsight but 692 is really +town imo. Curious what the thought was in #646)

Possible scum
======
Lavender
Hectic
Tanner

Scum
======
Pooky

[Prism]

Hectic probably deserves more benefit of the doubt here too, and some of his posts did look better in hindsight. I have the question in my mind of why beeboy didn't join/push that wagon, though, that I'm really curious about.