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[Andresvmb]

zdenek says they don't like the look of andres and NOT scumreading andres which is rather shady

When I say "I don't like the look of" I mean "the red letters in his role pm are shining through through every word that he's writing or my gut is off"

You’re gut is way off.

[Andresvmb]

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

I think I’ve openly suspected Math this game?

[VP Baltar]

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

I think I’ve openly suspected Math this game?

Maybe I'm wrong. I thought you called the wagon bad.

[Andresvmb]

I think Mark is way over focused on how Koba brushed him off. And I can’t say that I TR that.

@Marky Mark, can you maybe defend your original point a bit more? As in what posts from Koba specifically make you think that Koba is trying to overpost to “hide the important things”? And have you considered that another player might not approach Scum the way you do?

[Andresvmb]

I really dislike Andres early on trying to lock infinity into a scum read on Koba, and I find his progression on Koba unnatural, from not getting townvibes/dislike attempt to derp clear themself to "Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha"

Tomorrow I will work on the others.

Did I lock Infinity into a SR? I was more trying to understand where Infinity was coming from, and trying to figure out what level of certainty there was behind the read. They said they were still making up their mind, which I respected. I don’t really care for your description of my progression on Koba, but there’s nothing for me to disagree since your reasoning is vague.

[Andresvmb]

^disagree with*

[Infinity 324]

Jackson, I'd have to look at that game more closely, the posts in that spoiler have lots of different tones which range from lighter suspicions or thinking about who could be scum to things like "you're misrepping me" which I read as pretty direct. I saw some places in the other game where they were less confident too, though tbf maybe it wasn't in the same way.

Jackson feels towny from this

Sigh. What? You think trying to raise the temperature and not recognizing the similarities that VPB is openly saying exist between Koba’s Town game and approach here is Towny? Did I miss something?

It was the way they approached the read, felt a lot like a townie trying to explain a gut feeling. Probably confirmation biased but towny nonetheless.

[Andresvmb]

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

I think I’ve openly suspected Math this game?

Maybe I'm wrong. I thought you called the wagon bad.

748

[Andresvmb]

where I explained why math is scum and just binned it as "slightly town!AI" for no reason

andres why do you think a flashwagon doesn't catch scum? this is garnering multiple reactions

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

However, what Tayl0r seems to have completely missed and I did was Scummy (and self-conscious) was Math admitting that the timing of their posting was off.

[Andresvmb]

^I did think was Scummy*

[Marky Mark]

I think Mark is way over focused on how Koba brushed him off. And I can’t say that I TR that.

@Marky Mark, can you maybe defend your original point a bit more? As in what posts from Koba specifically make you think that Koba is trying to overpost to “hide the important things”? And have you considered that another player might not approach Scum the way you do?

So in 348 I raised a couple of observations: the one you have mentioned ref generating high volumes of fluff and also the fact that she voted jackson while promising to follow up with an explanation, but that explanation never came.

When dk claimed I was misrepping her it wasn't clear which of the above two points she was referring to, or even how it misrepped her, as they were both observations. I was keen to understand this. This could've been answered in a sentence, so when she decided to deflect the matter it seemed worth pursuing as it was interesting in itself that she had decided not to answer what seemed like a very straightforward question.

As a side note, I am not suggesting all or even any scum play the same way as I do (and if they did they probs wouldn't get very far as my scum game is pretty lacking ). I thought it was a useful observation to point out the behavior though, as it might not have been an angle that others had considered. Posting high volumes of fluff is rarely in the town's interests IMO as it makes it more difficult to grasp the important stuff, but that doesn't mean anyone who does it is auto-scum. Correlation but not necessarily causation.

[Andresvmb]

the fact ur defending math just solidifies it

u know what.
Math.
I'll give u a chance.
UNVOTE:
lets see what u have to say

This progression considering the way you've been acting all game so far is wack asf.

Uhm, you point out that Math’s admission is Scummy, yet you go after Koba for having a whack progression and voting there? I’m not following.

[Andresvmb]

I think Mark is way over focused on how Koba brushed him off. And I can’t say that I TR that.

@Marky Mark, can you maybe defend your original point a bit more? As in what posts from Koba specifically make you think that Koba is trying to overpost to “hide the important things”? And have you considered that another player might not approach Scum the way you do?

So in 348 I raised a couple of observations: the one you have mentioned ref generating high volumes of fluff and also the fact that she voted jackson while promising to follow up with an explanation, but that explanation never came.

When dk claimed I was misrepping her it wasn't clear which of the above two points she was referring to, or even how it misrepped her, as they were both observations. I was keen to understand this. This could've been answered in a sentence, so when she decided to deflect the matter it seemed worth pursuing as it was interesting in itself that she had decided not to answer what seemed like a very straightforward question.

As a side note, I am not suggesting all or even any scum play the same way as I do (and if they did they probs wouldn't get very far as my scum game is pretty lacking ). I thought it was a useful observation to point out the behavior though, as it might not have been an angle that others had considered. Posting high volumes of fluff is rarely in the town's interests IMO as it makes it more difficult to grasp the important stuff, but that doesn't mean anyone who does it is auto-scum. Correlation but not necessarily causation.

@Marky Mark but Koba did say that they thought that Jackson’s retraction of their test was off yeah? I mean I caught it, and I agree. So they might not have provided tremendous detail, but they did explain it. I’ll give you some background - Koba is not the type of player from my experience that will spend a great deal of time putting everything down. And that’s a play style thing. I understand why some players look for detailed explanations. As you can already tell, I tend to provide them. But not everybody plays like that and it doesn’t mean the play is less effective.

[Marky Mark]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

Some people were SRing math since his first reads post, iirc shelly called it out as consensusy but others were certianly also SRing the slot. As I've said before, wouldn't be my first choice for a wagon but I think the reasons people were SRing him had been fairly well articulated by the time the wagon formed.

[Andresvmb]

@VP - fair enough that makes sense. I shall look forward to the fireworks from him later on then

I've not seen anything from andres that is giving me major cause for suspicion, although I would find it useful to understand why he finds zdenek scummy in particular rather than any of the other low-activity slots.

Zdenek is making silly arguments about my play and is not really focused on anyone else. So outside of the low activity, they have a bad take on my slot. That point about how my progression on Koba was bad (or whatever word was used) is just lazy.

[Marky Mark]

@Marky Mark but Koba did say that they thought that Jackson’s retraction of their test was off yeah? I mean I caught it, and I agree. So they might not have provided tremendous detail, but they did explain it. I’ll give you some background - Koba is not the type of player from my experience that will spend a great deal of time putting everything down. And that’s a play style thing. I understand why some players look for detailed explanations. As you can already tell, I tend to provide them. But not everybody plays like that and it doesn’t mean the play is less effective.

Cross-posted with you, yeah I raised the point as I was kinda expecting a more thorough explanation (or at least that was how I understood her post when I read it) and I then wasn't sure if this was what she thought I was misrepping her over. At any rate, the key thing from that interaction was not the initial point but the fact she then went to far greater lengths to deflect then to provide a simple answer to the question.

[Andresvmb]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

Some people were SRing math since his first reads post, iirc shelly called it out as consensusy but others were certianly also SRing the slot. As I've said before, wouldn't be my first choice for a wagon but I think the reasons people were SRing him had been fairly well articulated by the time the wagon formed.

I do recall there being multiple people that were asking for paragraphs to try and understand why Math was being SR. And as Math actually correctly pointed out, shellyc was SR’ing Math for something they did as Town as well. I would have liked to see folks putting votes down perhaps reinforcing their reasoning a bit. That would have created some real pressure. Semi-naked votes all bunched up don’t tend to have the same effect I feel.

[Andresvmb]

Okay but Mark you’ve gone way out of your way to highlight the brush off from Koba, and rely on that for a SR. I would argue your focus has been too narrow, which you yourself recognized in one of your posts.

[VP Baltar]

Really unclear why Taylor and andres were so eager to defend what is pretty milquetoast play so far.

I think I’ve openly suspected Math this game?

Maybe I'm wrong. I thought you called the wagon bad.

748

hmm. I didn't really take that as strongly calling math scum. Particularly when your previous post to that was this:

I will say, there’s a lot of votes on Math all of a sudden (I skimmed) and that sort of thing tends not to catch Scum.

Let's clarify:

Where do you sit currently on Math?

[Andresvmb]

I have a Negative Lean on NDMath. I clarified what I meant by that statement in a response to shellyc.

[Marky Mark]

@Andres Idk - I think it's worth being fairly dogmatic sometimes if someone is going to great lengths to avoid giving a straight answer to a question. At the expense of repeating myself, it felt like a reach and I wanted to get to the bottom of it. It led to some interesting responses including the "if you keep pushing me, I'll SR you" (I'm paraphrasing here) threat, which strengthened my SR on her.

Obviously it's a balancing act and what I see as being dogmatic, others might see as tunneling or getting bogged down. There's definitely a balance to be had and that was why I started to look into other stuff very recently when it became clear I was not going to get any further with it

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm going to take a long shower and catch up.

[VP Baltar]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

I gave a straightforward bit if reasoning just earlier today. Persuasive or no?

[Andresvmb]

Well for context, I openly admitted not to have read every single post this game by then, and was clearly catching up. I’m caught up now. I don’t know that I’m fully convinced (I think Jackson / Zdenek are Scummier), but I do agree that Math needs pressure.

[Marky Mark]

Maybe I should have phrased it better - pressure can definitely catch Scum. It’s just that there was no buildup to it when it happened. So unless Math creates a hole for themselves, you end up in a situation where others don’t join because the explanation just isn’t there.

Some people were SRing math since his first reads post, iirc shelly called it out as consensusy but others were certianly also SRing the slot. As I've said before, wouldn't be my first choice for a wagon but I think the reasons people were SRing him had been fairly well articulated by the time the wagon formed.

I do recall there being multiple people that were asking for paragraphs to try and understand why Math was being SR. And as Math actually correctly pointed out, shellyc was SR’ing Math for something they did as Town as well. I would have liked to see folks putting votes down perhaps reinforcing their reasoning a bit. That would have created some real pressure. Semi-naked votes all bunched up don’t tend to have the same effect I feel.

I get it, but due to the inherent nature of why people were SRing him, eg being consenus-y and lurky, I can't see people being able to write tonnes on stuff on why he's been scummy. It's one of those slots that you pressure to try to get a response out of and use that to make a more meaningful read.