976: mystyry box of sylvyr I: isis game. day 3

[MathBlade]

I'm not allowed to do PoE?

You are. You just have to be more convincing than eliminating Dunn or Nic.

Mafia is very much a game of charisma.

If you’re town you have your reads. It doesn’t quite well matter if you can’t explain it well enough.

So either A) You have to explain a fuck ton of stuff better about Nic’s claim and explain Dunn town to the thread’s satisfaction
Or
B) You have to explain someone else is more likely scum to outweigh that prior evidence.

That’s how mafia works.

[mastina]

—-This is definitionally false

What makes it definitionally false?
A nonmalevolent 3p is a 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town.
A nonmaleveloent 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town may still have reason to lie if it is not beneficial to their wincon.

—-This version unvotes when pushing conf!Town he’s has many chances.

Akarin has characterized NicCage's play as tunneling and I am inclined to by and large agree--confirmation bias is enough of a reason for that lack of unvote.

—- This version Nic himself rejected.

Can you quote the post where Nic said this so I can look at the exact wording? Because I saw nothing from him saying this. So I have a feeling you interpreted a post of his in a way that I didn't interpret it.

[MathBlade]

Schadd says Math is right about the meaning of “mafia” in my role. So if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town.

But Math, honestly that just makes me think Dunn is scum even more, because now there is no complicating factor of 3p. I still can’t believe as town he would let it get to this without lifting a finger to defend himself in private.

@Mastina here you go.

[MathBlade]

Confirmation bias doesn’t explain what would be a literal mod clear Mastina.

[mastina]

—-This is definitionally false

What makes it definitionally false?
A nonmalevolent 3p is a 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town.
A nonmaleveloent 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town may still have reason to lie if it is not beneficial to their wincon.

*A nonmalevolent 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town may still have reason to lie if it is beneficial to their wincon to lie/if it is not beneficial to their wincon to tell an absolute truth.
(I crossed streams and combined half of one with half of another when saying either would convey my intended meaning but half of one and half of the other conveys the opposite of my meaning.)

[MathBlade]

—-This is definitionally false

What makes it definitionally false?
A nonmalevolent 3p is a 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town.
A nonmaleveloent 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town may still have reason to lie if it is not beneficial to their wincon.

*A nonmalevolent 3p whose wincon is not mutually exclusive with the town may still have reason to lie if it is beneficial to their wincon to lie/if it is not beneficial to their wincon to tell an absolute truth.
(I crossed streams and combined half of one with half of another when saying either would convey my intended meaning but half of one and half of the other conveys the opposite of my meaning.)

It’s possible but not probable. The more likely answer is if 3P he is malevolent.

[mastina]

Schadd says Math is right about the meaning of “mafia” in my role. So if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town. But Math, honestly that just makes me think Dunn is scum even more, because now there is no complicating factor of 3p. I still can’t believe as town he would let it get to this without lifting a finger to defend himself in private.

@Mastina here you go.

To me that read as Nic making an assumption, not an absolute definitive declaration.
As in.
He says "so if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town"--this read to me as not mod knowledge from schadd_, but him making an assumption.

[MathBlade]

Schadd says Math is right about the meaning of “mafia” in my role. So if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town. But Math, honestly that just makes me think Dunn is scum even more, because now there is no complicating factor of 3p. I still can’t believe as town he would let it get to this without lifting a finger to defend himself in private.

@Mastina here you go.

To me that read as Nic making an assumption, not an absolute definitive declaration.
As in.
He says "so if we are in a 3p game, Dunn has to be town"--this read to me as not mod knowledge from schadd_, but him making an assumption.

Schadd says X is literally claiming the mod said something.

If we are in a 3P game, Nic unvotes Dunn every time. Yet he refused to commit to a regular scum game.

C’mon Mastina this looks like grasping for straws here.

[MathBlade]

And if Nic himself was 3P then he’d know it was a 3P game and he unvotes Dunn.

The only way your argument works is if you think Nic is town.

[mastina]

Schadd says X is literally claiming the mod said something.

Yes--he said "schadd says X"...to the

first sentence

. "schadd said Mathblade is right about the meaning of 'mafia' in my role". That is, in fact, claiming the mod says something, clearly and unambiguously. The first sentence is him clearly saying mod info.

Not so much for the second. The second is what I was calling as looking like an assumption, rather than absolute knowledge.

It looks like, "the mod said this info (from the first sentence; mod info), therefore this is the case (this, from the second sentence, reads as an assumption from him)".

So I want to hear more from Nic and for him to be more explicit on the case.

In essence.
As much as you grilled him, I think you missed a critical step in the grilling, one which is of importance to have it be answered, rather than you just assuming it is answered already.

[MathBlade]

Schadd says X is literally claiming the mod said something.

Yes--he said "schadd says X"...to the

first sentence

. "schadd said Mathblade is right about the meaning of 'mafia' in my role". That is, in fact, claiming the mod says something, clearly and unambiguously. The first sentence is him clearly saying mod info.

Not so much for the second. The second is what I was calling as looking like an assumption, rather than absolute knowledge.

It looks like, "the mod said this info (from the first sentence; mod info), therefore this is the case (this, from the second sentence, reads as an assumption from him)".

So I want to hear more from Nic and for him to be more explicit on the case.

In essence.
As much as you grilled him, I think you missed a critical step in the grilling, one which is of importance to have it be answered, rather than you just assuming it is answered already.

Go for it.

If I am wrong I would love to be so. I don’t see how but if by all means you can demonstrate your townread that’s awesome. I do agree we can’t afford a town elimination.

[mastina]

NicCage:

Does your information confirm that Mafia, as a faction, cannot be present in a 4-town version of the game?
Does your information confirm that Mafia, as a faction, cannot be a 3p?
Does your information confirm that Mafia, as a faction, must be the only threats to the town (i.e., that Mafia can only exist in a 7-2 world)?

[MathBlade]

The last question imho is misleading. May I reword it?

[Akarin]

I'm not allowed to do PoE?

You are. You just have to be more convincing than eliminating Dunn or Nic.

Mafia is very much a game of charisma.

If you’re town you have your reads. It doesn’t quite well matter if you can’t explain it well enough.

So either A) You have to explain a fuck ton of stuff better about Nic’s claim and explain Dunn town to the thread’s satisfaction
Or
B) You have to explain someone else is more likely scum to outweigh that prior evidence.

That’s how mafia works.

Can you try being less of a condescending jerk please?

[MathBlade]

I'm not allowed to do PoE?

You are. You just have to be more convincing than eliminating Dunn or Nic.

Mafia is very much a game of charisma.

If you’re town you have your reads. It doesn’t quite well matter if you can’t explain it well enough.

So either A) You have to explain a fuck ton of stuff better about Nic’s claim and explain Dunn town to the thread’s satisfaction
Or
B) You have to explain someone else is more likely scum to outweigh that prior evidence.

That’s how mafia works.

Can you try being less of a condescending jerk please?

Sorry? I didn’t see how that could be condescending. I was trying to reach out in case you’re town.

[Akarin]

Okay, I'm unwilling to vote for anyone but:
{SKYEscrapers, TheGoldenParadox(nona), mastina, MathBlade(PlusJOYED)}

I'll suck it up and vote for someone else if we have to for deadline but that's it.
TGP is my current top choice and I'd like someone to give a real reason why that's such a bad wagon that it's unthinkable.

Can some of the non-MathBlade people please chime in more?

Despite what Mastina says, it feels like he's sort of come in and taken over the game and we haven't been able to talk about anything else other than his current pushes since he joined.

[Akarin]

Sorry? I didn’t see how that could be condescending. I was trying to reach out in case you’re town.

It comes across to me like you informing me I don't have any charisma (maybe because I'm not loud or confident enough?) and then explaining to me how mafia works like I'm 5.

[MathBlade]

Sorry? I didn’t see how that could be condescending. I was trying to reach out in case you’re town.

It comes across to me like you informing me I don't have any charisma (maybe because I'm not loud or confident enough?) and then explaining to me how mafia works like I'm 5.

I am sorry that I said it in a rude way, but I am trying to cooperate with you. I have seen many people with right reads be unable to explain where they are coming from. Those get really easy to deflect by scum. See Nero in the recently completed game. He was right about me being scum but no one cared because he was so easy to reject. I am trying to figure out a way to get you to help bring people into your way of thinking if you’re town. The avenues you’re trying really make you look like you’re scum with Nic versus how Mastina is going about it.

[MathBlade]

Okay, I'm unwilling to vote for anyone but:
{SKYEscrapers, TheGoldenParadox(nona), mastina, MathBlade(PlusJOYED)}

I'll suck it up and vote for someone else if we have to for deadline but that's it.
TGP is my current top choice and I'd like someone to give a real reason why that's such a bad wagon that it's unthinkable.

Can some of the non-MathBlade people please chime in more?

Despite what Mastina says, it feels like he's sort of come in and taken over the game and we haven't been able to talk about anything else other than his current pushes since he joined.

Sure shutting up now.

[NicCage]

NicCage:

Does your information confirm that Mafia, as a faction, cannot be present in a 4-town version of the game?
Does your information confirm that Mafia, as a faction, cannot be a 3p?
Does your information confirm that Mafia, as a faction, must be the only threats to the town (i.e., that Mafia can only exist in a 7-2 world)?

My role says that during setup generation a dice roll was performed giving my neighbor a 90% chance of being Town and a 10% chance of being Mafia.
For clarification, I asked whether the term "Mafia" referred to roles which were possible in only one of the two possible setups. The answer was yes.

So yes to all three. Whatever the threats to town are in a 4-5 game, they are considered to be a separate category and Dunnstral cannot be among them.

[mastina]

The last question imho is misleading. May I reword it?

Sure, I was struggling to find a way to be thorough. (Pointing out that we don't have all the info/answers doesn't guarantee that I have the ability to word a question that'll get us there. )

[MathBlade]

If the answer to Mastina’s second question is yes, and assuming this is not a 3P game, then is mafia necessarily the 2P scum team?

^^ That’s how I would word it. Your last question imho assumes Mafia the faction exists.

If Nic is taken at his word, this doesn’t imply a mafia faction exists and in fact informs nothing except Dunn can’t be 3P.

@Nic I know this is repetitive and I am sorry. Just if you can one more time for me answer that.

[mastina]

Can some of the non-MathBlade people please chime in more?

Hi I am mastina and my name is not Mathblade and thus I can chime in with this:

My townbloc, as in, town that I think can work together to solidly lock the game down, is:
{Akarin, Mathblade, TheGoldenParadox}.
If you want to throw in locktown reads, throw in Gypyx in there as well, who I don't see as having the same ability to work well with us but who I think is town.

That's four names; I am a fifth.

That leaves four names remaining:
{DoubtingThomas, SKYEscrapers, NicCage, Dunnstral}.

Regardless of 7-2 or 4 town, I believe that the game's scum are found in the four above; if the game's got four town, then the above contain the scum/'scum' of the game along with 3ps that aren't scum. In either case, they contain the players with the highest chances of flipping nontown.

Of them, Nic's by far the towniest by play, but with a fairly sketchy claim;
Dunnstral's by far the scummiest by play, but if Nic's claim is legitimate, has a fair chance to not be scum;
DoubtingThomas and SKYEscrapers are both, conditionally, possible scum candidates regardless.

[NicCage]

If the answer to Mastina’s second question is yes, and assuming this is not a 3P game, then is mafia necessarily the 2P scum team?

^^ That’s how I would word it. Your last question imho assumes Mafia the faction exists.

If Nic is taken at his word, this doesn’t imply a mafia faction exists and in fact informs nothing except Dunn can’t be 3P.

@Nic I know this is repetitive and I am sorry. Just if you can one more time for me answer that.

I am not entirely sure what you are asking that's different, but nothing I know implies that a mafia faction actually exists. The only think I know is that Dunn can't be 3p, correct.

[MathBlade]

@Mastina Now do you see why Nic can’t be 3P and truthtelling Mastina?