The Bulge's Large Normal Review, October 2020

[The Bulge]

I get you. I don't want to seem like I'm trying to take advantage of the grey area. However it's done should be presentable and feasible as a permanent solution. I don't want the way it plays out to be even uglier than the lack of a standard

[The Bulge]

I guess the question is should this unique hood dynamic, where claiming scum in PT is beneficial to both parties, be allowed in a Normal game? if not then no worries, if yes then I'd like to explore it.

[implosion]

ba-bump.

[Ircher]

I think schadd_ some concerns regarding the setup's balance/interactions that haven't been resolved and then we got sidetracked on whether the double traitors knowing that they are scum together or not. This is just a recap of where we are in the review.

[schadd_]

• you would have a nearly impossible time selling me on two UBs being normal - scum are punished if they kill a good PR first, this makes people very very upset in post game
  
• i'm fine with traitors not knowing about each other, though i will be paying attention to your role PMs that the wording couldn't be parsed as ruling out other traitors. something i don't know if i ever voiced is that i think the neighborhood would be very fun and i'm interested to see how it goes
  
• support gating the gunsmith. though i would be really uneasy from bulletproofing it, i don't think gating the protective as well is necessary because of the roleblocker (i think setups where a certain member of the scumteam must be kept alive are good, and i think this is more actionable for the scumteam in a large game - maybe informing the one or both of the traitors that "x is a mafia roleblocker" is worthwhile)

here is a setup i would be down with:

Spoiler:

Mafia Cop
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Mafia

informed (x is mafia cop)

Traitor Neighbour
Mafia

informed (x is mafia roleblocker)

Traitor Neighbour

Town

bulletproof

Miller
Town Simple Fruit Vendor
Town

odd-night

Gunsmith
Town

babysitter

Town 3-shot Vigilante
Town Universal Backup
Town

odd-night jailkeeper

Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

[schadd_]

you could soften the weirdness of the traitor thing further by letting one of them know that there's another traitor

[The Bulge]

you would have a nearly impossible time selling me on two UBs being normal - scum are punished if they kill a good PR first, this makes people very very upset in post game

double UB was probably the "concept" I cared least about here, so I'm fine scrapping it to allow for more design space, and you have a very fair point.

i'm fine with traitors not knowing about each other, though i will be paying attention to your role PMs that the wording couldn't be parsed as ruling out other traitors. something i don't know if i ever voiced is that i think the neighborhood would be very fun and i'm interested to see how it goes

I will get going on the PMs in the next few days.

here is a setup i would be down with:

Spoiler:

Mafia Cop
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Mafia

informed (x is mafia cop)

Traitor Neighbour
Mafia

informed (x is mafia roleblocker)

Traitor Neighbour

Town

bulletproof

Miller
Town Simple Fruit Vendor
Town

odd-night

Gunsmith
Town

babysitter

Town 3-shot Vigilante
Town Universal Backup
Town

odd-night jailkeeper

Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

I really really really like the idea of informing each traitor of a different groupscum's role. This gives them another more tangible reward for solving each other.
BP Miller is fine.
Already said I like even/odd for gating the gunsmith so this is good.
I think the Babysitter has to be Lazy or else 3p limlo could end in a draw with a miselim and probably a mess of other potential end-phase fuckery.
I still like the vig having 3 shots with just a singular UB but that can be tweaked if we feel the need.
Odd-night JK is fine but I'll see if there's something else I'd prefer. What's your reasoning on that?

[schadd_]

tangible reward for solving each other: sure, although not having to perform in the neighborhood anymore is sweet (imagining a world where they spend the whole game having like a vibrant conversation trying to buddy the other one and then they both roar out in agony once they find out what the situation is)

lazy babysiter: ok!

3 shot vig + UB: yeah that's all well and good, vig is one of those roles that's friends with UB since there isn't really any info loss when the role transfers from one person to the next

why jk: i like jail keepr

[The Bulge]

should the babysitter protect from all kill attempts or only one per night? I personally would rather the former.

[The Bulge]

Are the "Assuming no interference with your action" clauses in the sample wiki Pms necessary?

[The Bulge]

also, which of the PRs can and cannot self-target?

[The Bulge]

should the vig have shots returned if blocked?

[The Bulge]

if the UB inherits a new role, do they flip "UB->new role" or just the new role?

[The Bulge]

I'll give priority to factional>vigshot if two PRs die at the same time.

[The Bulge]

^ for the UB

[Ircher]

Are the "Assuming no interference with your action" clauses in the sample wiki Pms necessary?

I wouldn't say they are

required

, but I would highly recommend it so that players fully understand that their role is not guaranteed to work.

should the vig have shots returned if blocked?

Shots are never refunded when blocked.

if the UB inherits a new role, do they flip "UB->new role" or just the new role?

The UB--> New Role flip is fairly typical.

[The Bulge]

thanks, it's been a while haha

[The Bulge]

is there a list somewhere of general standards for stuff like that?

[The Bulge]

Spoiler: Role PMs

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You do not have any active abilities.

You win when there are no remaining threats to the Town, and at least one Town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Town Bulletproof Miller

.

You do not have any active abilities. You are automatically protected from any kills that target you. If you are investigated by a Cop, you will return a result of "Not Town".

You win when there are no remaining threats to the Town, and at least one Town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Town Simple Fruit Vendor

.

Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, they will receive the following anonymous message: "You have received fruit!". If you target a player who is not a Vanilla Townie or a Mafia Goon, your action will fail.

You win when there are no remaining threats to the Town, and at least one Town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Town Odd-Night Gunsmith

.

Each odd-numbered Night (N1, N3, N5, etc.), you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not they have a gun ("x has a gun" or "x does not have a gun"), or else receive No Result. All members of the Mafia (except Traitors and Doctors), Cops, Vigilantes, Gunsmiths, Role Cops, Vanilla Cops, Vengefuls, Detectives, and Neapolitans have guns, as do their Backups and JoATs that have any of these listed powers.

You win when there are no remaining threats to the Town, and at least one Town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Town Lazy Babysitter

.

Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, they will be protected from any kills that target them***. If you are killed at Night, your target will also die. If there is only one non-Town player alive at the start of the Night, your action will fail.

You win when there are no remaining threats to the Town, and at least one Town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Town 3-shot Vigilante

.

Each Night, you may target another player if you have not already used this ability 3 times this game. Assuming no interference with your action, they will be killed.

You win when there are no remaining threats to the Town, and at least one Town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Town Odd-Night Jailkeeper

.

Each odd-numbered Night (N1, N3, N5, etc.), you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, they will be protected from any kills that target them, and their action will be blocked.

You win when there are no remaining threats to the Town, and at least one Town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Town Universal Backup

.

You do not have any active abilities. You will inherit the role of the first Town Power Role to die this game. When you inherit a new role, you will lose this one.

You win when there are no remaining threats to the Town, and at least one Town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Mafia Cop

.

Your teammates are xxxxxx. You may communicate with them at any time here***. There are also two Traitors aligned with the Mafia whose identities are not known to you or the rest of your team.

Each Night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, they will be killed.

Each Night that you do not perform the factional kill, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether they are Town or Not Town, or else receive No Result.

You win when at least one Mafia-aligned player is alive while there are no living non-Mafia players, or if there is nothing that can prevent this scenario from occurring.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Mafia Roleblocker

.

Your teammates are xxxxxx. You may communicate with them at any time here***. There are also two Traitors aligned with the Mafia whose identities are not known to you or the rest of your team.

Each Night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, they will be killed.

Each Night that you do not perform the factional kill, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, their action will be blocked.

You win when at least one Mafia-aligned player is alive while there are no living non-Mafia players, or if there is nothing that can prevent this scenario from occurring.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Mafia Goon

.

Your teammates are xxxxxx. You may communicate with them at any time here***. There are also two Traitors aligned with the Mafia whose identities are not known to you or the rest of your team.

Each Night, if no other member of your faction is performing this action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, they will be killed.

You win when at least one Mafia-aligned player is alive while there are no living non-Mafia players, or if there is nothing that can prevent this scenario from occurring.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Mafia Informed Traitor Neighbour

.

The full members of the Mafia are xxxxxx. You have no direct line of communication with them and your identity is not known to them.

You know that xxxx is a Mafia Cop.

You share a neighbourhood with xxxx. You may communicate with them at any time here***.

You do not have any active abilities.

You die immediately if at any point the only living members of the Mafia are Traitors.

You win when at least one Mafia-aligned player is alive while there are no living non-Mafia players, or if there is nothing that can prevent this scenario from occurring.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

Player Name

Welcome to Sibyl's Elegy. You are a

Mafia Informed Traitor Neighbour

.

The full members of the Mafia are xxxxxx. You have no direct line of communication with them and your identity is not known to them. If at any point none of these players are alive, you will die immediately.

You know that xxxx is a Mafia Roleblocker.

You share a neighbourhood with xxxx. You may communicate with them at any time here***.

You do not have any active abilities.

You win when at least one Mafia-aligned player is alive while there are no living non-Mafia players, or if there is nothing that can prevent this scenario from occurring.

The game thread is here. You will receive a PM once the game has begun.

Please confirm by replying to this PM with your role name and alignment.

the traitor PMs are worded slightly different, I would appreciate input on which you prefer.

also balance-wise, daytalk y/n?

[The Bulge]

[schadd_]

ope sorry

interested why theres the three asterisks in the babysitter PM

"The full members of the Mafia are xxxxxx." <- this bugs me, when i read that i interpret it like "the full list of members of the mafia team are ...". honestly i think "the non-traitor members of the mafia team" would be fine - we had been worried about that communicating "there is another traitor" but i think someone would just assume that means "the team not including you"

[The Bulge]

Yea that wording would be fine I think. "non-traitor" doesn't give anything away to a traitor.

[The Bulge]

interested why theres the three asterisks in the babysitter PM

should the babysitter protect from all kill attempts or only one per night? I personally would rather the former.

[schadd_]

mafiawiki says one kill

[The Bulge]

huh I remembered reading it could go either way but you're right.