Mini Normal 2181 | College Basketball Players | Game Over

[fferyllt]

Ffery i feel very underwhelmed by you rn

I'm not apologizing for a crap few weeks. rationing my spoons, but this game gets my undivided at some point tonight or tomorrow.

[notscience]

In al fairness prism I was v disengaged last phase ans no I don’t know why and no I’m not apologizing

[Vaxkiller]

Too many people have others as a hard no.

[notscience]

My only hard no is ffery

I don’t want to vote Bork but I’m not standing in the way of it

[skitter30]

vax who do you want to kill today?

[DrippingGoofball]

Too many people have others as a hard no.

Yes, the wagon-blocking in this game is demotivating.

[Vaxkiller]

VOTE: pooky

[fferyllt]

What I mean by stylistic is that the things I don't like about him are things like:
-Not mentioning me/Ben at all yesterday until I directly asked
-Dropping the push on me Day 1 when he thought he was pressuring scum
-Awkward disengage with Pooky after the no bus meta

The more I see from Bork as a player, the less convinced I am these are AI, and that he is instead much more reserved by nature.

ok so i think the simplest way to get an answer to this is:
@ffery would you agree with this assessment?

The second-to-last game I played with bork, he was in a hydra with sleepykrew. I had forgotten he was in a hydra. Sleepykrew was fairly active in the hydra. bork signed his posts.

bork's interactions with me in that game are classic examples of how he develops/developed his reads on me. His read in this game never reached the point of being fully solid until I outed that I was a mason. The game was bastard. My mason buddy was being used like a puppet to perform the kills the SK wanted. The SK was the bastard part of the game. MafiaSSK had signed up for the game but didn't appear on the player list. Town eliminated all the groupscum by day 4, but lost the game to Mafiassk-Slenderman.

Anyway, in the Mafia on the Air game he had opinions and interacted with all or nearly all the players on day 1. He didn't drop scumreads until satisfied, and reevaluated scum and town reads with new data frequently.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59051

It's a six year old game, and his town game in 2020 is probably not going to pick up right where he left off in 2015. His scum game certainly didn't in the Illicit Substances game.

I found this post in the Forest Fire micro bork and I played. We were both town. We were in hydras (this is going to be a theme), and Tammy was a very active partner with bork in that game.

Subject: Micro 488: Forest Fire - Endgame

---------------

In this game, bork also engaged with/discussed all the players in an organic way. He was hydraing with Tammy and they play as full partners who don't try to present a single front, so you can see his posts and where he was active in the game. He's the one who signs.

For me this game was strange. I was playing in Sangres, my hydra with Nacho. People were mostly townreading my play and scumreading Nacho on Day 1. Except for zmuffin, who was scum.

I found this post, which really summed up how I read bork at the time, and why his not jumping on something I intentionally left open to question worried me, though I still read him as town on the bulk of his play.

Link to the whole game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=62186

bork, when Nacho and I talked about this game over night 1, I had felt like I was going to end day 1 with a god tier townread on your slot. It didn't happen. Our strongest townreads are elsewhere. In the last few games where I've played with town-tammy, she wound up a very strong town read on day 1.

We want to put the niggles to bed and stop worrying.

The things that bothered me come down to feeling like your interactions with me have been somewhat formulaic, day 1 felt almost like I was re-playing the script from the mafia on the air game in some ways. That was town-me and town-you, so the dance of recognition being similar should be encouraging. Which is why I said likely baseless paranoia - how much variance should there be? I dunno. And I feel like this is a level of paranoia that is never going to coalesce into a vote. I'd just like to feel more certain.

I really don't know what to say to this because I don't know how it constitutes a fear of something I'm doing that I shouldn't be. You basically just said "You acted like you did the last time you were town and for some reason that bothers me"

Unless you want to qualify "formulaic"

So again, what are you worrying about?

Like after all this "your play is not unfakeable / not super town / making me paranoid" I don't think either you or Nacho has talked about an actual tangible thing I've done the entire game.

-b

This has been a recurring theme. I talk in generalities and you ask for specifics, usually specific posts. That drive to granularity is something that I associate with your town game. In tales of you, you pushed me for a short while and then settled into a town read that I was happy to trust and accept because of our previous two hydra games, where I felt like we had started to develop a decent understanding of each others' approach to mafia.

In mafia on the air, it took a lot more interaction before you were comfortable I was town, and I'm not sure it was ever a strong read before I claimed mason on day 3 or 4 or whenever it was. But, what you wanted in that game was signs of analysis, and I think what you were looking for from me was signs of a process of developing reads.

This game, you push for details - what specific post made me have thought X about a player. In one instance, I pulled up an ISO and did a somewhat intentionally sketchy job of backing up my generalities with some specifics. I was surprised you didn't dig into that more deeply.

And that's what I mean by formulaic. The push was there, but in that instance especially, it didn't go further and I thought it would.

You're pushing for details, but your read for the most part, when you've indicated you think I'm town, has been based on tone and mindset, not details.

And that's not entirely unreasonable. As scum, I am good at details when I need to be. What I really have to reach for is tone, and the ring of truth and confidence about my stances. So, the slight disconnect between what you push vs what seems to convince you I'm town when you're convinced catches my attention, and makes me wonder. But I'm very doubtful it's indicative you're scum. Because I read you by mindset and by tone. And those channels of data tell me you're town.

On day 1 here, he wanted granularity on my Prism read and I wouldn't give it to him, partly but not entirely to see what kind of interactions would come of it. And partly just lack of brain cells. Anyway, This post (and the whole exchange in that game shakes my read a little, but I'm not sure it should. I associate the feel of being under a microscope with bork's town play. He did bring quite a bit of that into his scum game in Illicit, but the scrutiny kept letting up in odd ways and odd places.

There's really been only one point of scrutiny here, and it went away, but not because I satisfied his line of questioning. The tone thing, and a feeling of working toward a shared understanding of the game state (which was definitely present in these two old games) isn't really here. Maybe that's on me?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so its basically just vax and bork right?

I don't see any other viable solves.

[Prism]

so its basically just vax and bork right?

I don't see any other viable solves.

Can you please elaborate on why you think this?

Why are solves that include people like me/DGB, ffery, and skitter excluded to you?

[skitter30]

thanks ffery, i appreciate that
prism i'm circling back to bork's iso

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

im just sheeping cabd but if i wanted to actually effort id come up with good reasons probly

[skitter30]

i *think* that ffery's wall means that the things prism called out as being stylistic are probably, in fact, ai? unless i misunderstood that

[fferyllt]

i *think* that ffery's wall means that the things prism called out as being stylistic are probably, in fact, ai? unless i misunderstood that

If I'd been asked the opposite question, something like "Is it AI that bork interacts with everyone, questions them, and changes his reads based on the interactions?", I would have said that's something he definitely can do as town and scum. Is it AI for bork to NOT do that stuff? It's just kinda off.

[borkjerfkin]

catching up now

I'm a bulletproof and will leave my modifiers ambiguous.

i really don't like the fact that you took the time to crumb something unrelated to your apparent real role, especially considering you know that the only way to verify you is a role that gets identical results on both what you claimed and what you crumbed and kinda fits in this "killstop madness" theme we have going on.

what was the motivation for that? scum goes back at night to ctrl + f for the word "watch" and decides you have to die?

[borkjerfkin]

at the risk of being offensive, he might really just be that obtuse.

just by the by you're making it really, really hard to remain civil and i kinda feel like you've been taking shots at my reading comprehension and general intelligence all game and it's getting really fucking old

[borkjerfkin]

I read the bork ISO. They're not powertown at all but I see a few reasons to think he's not scum and the few to scum read him as likely stylistic. I can't really give backlinks since I'm on my phone laying down, I might later.

I'm skeptical of the early interactions with Syr but the interactions with unwnd were great. I'm on my phone and can't easily link but unwnd consciously tagged on to bork's characterization of me, and bork went out of his way to quote unwnd two/three times about me saying "deja vu", "are you me", etc.

All of bork's reads are plausible and progress well. The only questionable one for me is +town. He has a great post later on about Syr's facade beginning to crack but reverts to not wanting to vote the slot. Given that he townread Syr around this, this seems consistent to me.

I really didn't like bork's early game, and I don't like how bork holds off comments on entire slots (ex. With Ben/me Day) for extended periods but I can get over it. Both are likely stylistic.

His entrance into Day 2 as going aggressive on Pooky was fine, even if the back off was awkward this was explainable., but his Day 2 positioning around Ben/DGB were also stellar, consistent, and very plausible as town. I don't really have the same issues with his eventual vote on Elements.

I need a more specific reasons to vote the slot.

and yeah literally have no fucking idea what your angle is at this point. you've kinda soft-wanted-me-dead all game and to come back to "i need more concrete reasons" is incredibly jarring for me

[borkjerfkin]

it's kinda the opposite of how i feel about skitter who went from "town?" to "i don't hate this vote" to "i guess i'm just parking here forever" in the span of not very much

[borkjerfkin]

bork's interactions with me in that game are classic examples of how he develops/developed his reads on me. His read in this game never reached the point of being fully solid until I outed that I was a mason. The game was bastard. My mason buddy was being used like a puppet to perform the kills the SK wanted. The SK was the bastard part of the game. MafiaSSK had signed up for the game but didn't appear on the player list. Town eliminated all the groupscum by day 4, but lost the game to Mafiassk-Slenderman.

I think you are leaning on my exhibiting residual paranoia of you as something that is necessarily part of my towngame and you have decided that the absence of that is my scumgame and I feel like after illicit that should be demonstrably not true.

Like I hit very obvious "paranoia" notes that game, because as I stated, I was spending a ton of energy trying to fool you. Like I think the second to last paragraph in the post I'm quoting from is your confbiasing away the differences between this game and that one.

[Prism]

I'm out right now but I am being as least offensive as I possibly can. I was talking specifically to Skitter about my perception of our argument.

I have endured significantly worse this game from both you and petapan than being called "obtuse". I have repeatedly affirmed that you can be glaringly wrong and without being whatever insult you can imagine.

If you would prefer that I vote you over doubting your ability to understand me, I can do that instead

[Prism]

I have repeatedly affirmed-again and again-that you are a competent player, not s moron, and what have you, while allowing for the possibility you have made a grave error in understanding my passages.

I have been called the most toxic player in the game who should be eliminated regardless of alignment. I have been called not worth conversing with. I have had you all caps at me and affirm repeatedly how infuriating it is to play with me, how I instigate and undermine you at every turn, and at one point you linked arms with a scum over them not knowing what "at least one is scum" means. You can stand being called "obtuse" when it is unavoidable in the context of a question


My patience is growing very, very thin.

[Prism]

Actually, my patience is gone.

VOTE: bork

[borkjerfkin]

If you would prefer that I vote you over doubting your ability to understand me, I can do that instead

only scum ever says this non-analysis crap

VOTE: prism

[Prism]

Good riddance.

[borkjerfkin]

I have repeatedly affirmed that you can be glaringly wrong and without being whatever insult you can imagine.

lots of people are "glaringly wrong" all the time. it is the fundamental basis of getting miselimed.

you've felt the need to continually go past that because you know i'll react to it