Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 2-5

Perhaps it is no surprise that ghost stories abound in Iceland. With near 24-hour nights in midwinter there was a lot of time to pass staying warm by the hearth in the centuries before central heat and electric lights. One such story, The Deacon of Dark River, took place on Christmas Eve and involved a tragic accident. Death did not deter the deacon from returning to his beloved on Christmas Eve. They embarked on a horseback ride that took them to the cemetery where his open grave awaited him.

Salsabil Faria

(2): floo, quiet

Spartan117

(1): Fredrick A Campbell

Fredrick A Campbell

(1): Salsabil Faria

quiet

(1): flow trap

floo

(1): Prism

Not Voting

(1): Spartan117

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Deadline: January 30, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-01-29 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[quiet]

It's you actually

Yes well unfortunately I know that solution doesn’t work, so I need an alternative one. I will agree that solving is a lot simpler if I am scum though.

Alas.

Pick a different one.

[floo]

I reread Sal's iso in more depth for info on her defensiveness. It's not that she doesn't respond to accusations, she does. But she uses overly defensive wording, and when a debate about a scumread on her gets dragged out enough, she uses an excuse of "I don't care" / "That's only your opinion" / "You're a hypocrite" / etc. This isn't comprehensive, but some things that I've taken note of. Note that the posts are out of chronological order.

flow trap interaction

544 reminds me of the arrogance that she will not be scumread. "I think I'm giving you everything which you need to prove me as a scum" and you'll soon figure you can't, is what she is saying. Inviting someone to write a scumread case against you (with a negative tone too) would be the opposite of what Sal wants considering her overall defensiveness. If she's town, it's an emotional reaction driven by anger to hammer in a point.

If she's scum, the best course of action is not responding at all. The reaction then is emotional or instinctive, ultimately irrational. I will read Sal’s interactions to see which emotions are at play. Towny emotions include a willingness to help other players amid debate, and sincere frustration. Scummy emotions include fear in that she prefers hiding away to talking, and overdefensiveness.

Regardless of whether she’s town or scum, I think the dismissive and flippant comments (using Prism’s wording) are a mental defense mechanism. Her style is to mock and dismiss negative comments in advance of a more serious response or using an excuse to avoid a conversation (which is itself for mental defense). Unfortunately, I haven’t found another game to see if this is natural for her.

544 doesn’t suggest towny helpfulness, as it is sarcastic and snarky. It reveals a fighting rather than talking attitude to a mid-D1 scumlean, which wouldn’t even put her close to the stake. It's overdefensive panicking - scummy.

553 responds to flow trap’s accusations in the same conversation as 544. Sal evades responding to flow trap’s questions about why her prior post might not make sense in terms of logic and clarity of ideas. She calls out flow trap for hypocrisy and uses this as an excuse to ignore.

Explaining her post could avoid flow trap’s scumread (and benefit town) for both town and scum Sal. There are two explanations for suboptimal play then: she realizes her post is scummy and prefers to avoid it entirely, or she is angry. The former explanation doesn’t seem likely since she could just apologize for her negative tone. It’s also hard to see why town would be so angry about someone just pointing out one weird post about them, so I think this is scum overdefensiveness too.

Enchant interaction + sidenote

413 is very defensive, calling Enchant "totally wrong" and accusing them of "twist[ing]/shad[ing]" her words. Even while Enchant was not the hot scumread, the wording of this post suggests that Enchant is Mafia manipulating the evidence rather than a possibly incorrect player who could be town or scum. This is definitely a retaliatory attitude that is not helpful for anyone who is trying to read her.

When flow trap calls Sal out for a "victim tone” (a good way to describe it), she responds by a GIF "I don't care" (416). Rather than apologize as town for counterproductive tone, she shuts down further discussion. Her fear of being scumread is stronger than her motivation to scumhunt. Pointing out one scummy thing in an overall townread could anger her, which is actually the case with the response to EZ’s townread in 523.

Final Notes

At the time I started being rude to Sal (1108), as explained, I took the negative tone because I noticed Sal’s overdefensiveness and emotionality (if that’s a word). I would never have done this to a player who would counter me rationally and calmly, which I’d expect everyone else alive to do (except flow trap, who I townread anyway).

I don’t want to comment on her interactions with me today, as I still want to see how they play out.

[Salsabil Faria]

It's you actually

Yes well unfortunately I know that solution doesn’t work, so I need an alternative one. I will agree that solving is a lot simpler if I am scum though.

Alas.

Pick a different one.

You and

Fredrick A Campbell

Also, it's easier but that doesn't necessarily mean that it can't happen.

[floo]

Explain your reads and don't respond with an "I don't care"

[quiet]

What do you think on the possibility on 1 of sal/fredrick and 1 of floo/flowtrap/prism being the scum partnership?
Do you think a floo/flow trap, floo/prism or flow trap/prism partnership would be viable?

The issue here is that I independently TR most of the cast of characters. It’s hurting my ego to think that I’m dead wrong on two of them together. Frankly, I’m trying to solve this same puzzle where I also include your name as the fourth counterpart to sal/Fred, but I don’t particularly like you with either of them (though salsa more than Fred I think).

I’m not going to re-assess flow baring a major change before tmmrw, and I feel even better about prism at this point. So that makes a lot of these partnerships hard for me to see.

Despite my TR, I feel like flow has the most partner equity of anyone on the list, as they flit around from person to person. I don’t see anyone that is ruled out from a flow partnership.

Floo/flow I could see, Floo/Fred makes sense. Floo also has a bit of partner equity with everyone that isn’t Salsa, as the hardbus today seems unnecessary. They picked out one of my comments (defensiveSalsa) and have been running with it; scum is in a good position rn from lack of day1 info and dead PR, no need to play defensive yet. (This is reductive I am aware).

Not sure who salsa is teamed with, actually. Have to admit, Salsa has been getting to me a bit over the last day or so, I’m having doubts about my scumread. I think I’m talking myself into a 1 scum of in Floo vs Salsa world, but I’ll wait for floo to chime in with their Salsa read and go from there.

[quiet]

Speak of the devil and they shall appear. Let’s go, floo! Excited to read this.

[quiet]

I need to think more about floo’s post before I try to sort based on it.

While you’re here, @floo which of my three other TRs in Spartian, Prism, Flow Trap do you think is the most likely to screw me over and why?

[quiet]

I don't think the very carefully curated posts from floo are as town as you think they are.

I'll save judgment on the essay until I see it but the initial reasoning I do not like at all, nor much of floo's play around the stronger slots.

Also, this is probably the strongest argument I’ve seen regarding your scum equity. Getting your response to this would help me sort you a great deal, I think. You can reference my post directly before this on wanting to TR you by virtue of comprehensive high effort posts for extra context.

[Salsabil Faria]

1.

when a debate about a scumread on her gets dragged out enough, she uses an excuse of "I don't care" / "That's only your opinion" /

"You're a hypocrite"

/ etc.

2.

There's a line between "the scumreads on me don't matter, I'll just hunt for scum" versus

"the people who scumread me are stupid."

I'm seeing the latter from Salsabil Faria.

I usually behave exactly as the other person behaves with me. If you want to or even need to use

strong words

for me for whatever reason, please keep in mind that, in my reply, the exact amount of harshness will be present. For getting favor from others about your read on me, doesn't need to disrespect me in the way. I'm ignoring you cause I don't want to fight with you as I need to clear my mind before the exam. So I'll interact with you properly after my exam.

1.

"I don't care" / "That's only your opinion" : This part is actually correct but this

"You're a hypocrite"

is way wrong! I never meant anything like that with my posts/interactions here.

2.

"the people who scumread me are stupid."

: This is also very equally wrong! No one is stupid here, the main difference among all of us is

experience

and less experienced people are not stupid!

[Salsabil Faria]

Explain your reads and don't respond with an "I don't care"

This part shows that you're really desperate to pick up a fight with me. The whole

flow trap

vs me thing was happening for a long enough time but you didn't bother to interfere then. Now you're using this fraction of my arguments to make me look bad??? Guess what,

I really don't care!!

Joke of the year!! Now I'm arrogant!!!

Yes, you're arrogant.

[flow trap]

I usually behave exactly as the other person behaves with me

There is a difference between "I don't want to reveal my hand yet" and "screw you"

[floo]

1. 553 is calling flow trap a hypocrite. Whether you're town or scum, you're avoiding discussion.
2. I got the feeling that "the people who scumread me are stupid" by your negative tones directed toward other players, in different phases of the game and of different experiences.

We have two choices. We can either:
a. continue our shouting match
b. discuss civilly
Please choose one.

[Salsabil Faria]

Spoiler:

flow trap interaction

544 reminds me of the arrogance that she will not be scumread. "I think I'm giving you everything which you need to prove me as a scum" and you'll soon figure you can't, is what she is saying. Inviting someone to write a scumread case against you (with a negative tone too) would be the opposite of what Sal wants considering her overall defensiveness. If she's town, it's an emotional reaction driven by anger to hammer in a point.

If she's scum, the best course of action is not responding at all. The reaction then is emotional or instinctive, ultimately irrational. I will read Sal’s interactions to see which emotions are at play. Towny emotions include a willingness to help other players amid debate, and sincere frustration. Scummy emotions include fear in that she prefers hiding away to talking, and overdefensiveness.

Regardless of whether she’s town or scum, I think the dismissive and flippant comments (using Prism’s wording) are a mental defense mechanism. Her style is to mock and dismiss negative comments in advance of a more serious response or using an excuse to avoid a conversation (which is itself for mental defense). Unfortunately, I haven’t found another game to see if this is natural for her.

544 doesn’t suggest towny helpfulness, as it is sarcastic and snarky. It reveals a fighting rather than talking attitude to a mid-D1 scumlean, which wouldn’t even put her close to the stake. It's overdefensive panicking - scummy.

553 responds to flow trap’s accusations in the same conversation as 544. Sal evades responding to flow trap’s questions about why her prior post might not make sense in terms of logic and clarity of ideas. She calls out flow trap for hypocrisy and uses this as an excuse to ignore.

Explaining her post could avoid flow trap’s scumread (and benefit town) for both town and scum Sal. There are two explanations for suboptimal play then: she realizes her post is scummy and prefers to avoid it entirely, or she is angry. The former explanation doesn’t seem likely since she could just apologize for her negative tone. It’s also hard to see why town would be so angry about someone just pointing out one weird post about them, so I think this is scum overdefensiveness too.

Enchant interaction + sidenote

413 is very defensive, calling Enchant "totally wrong" and accusing them of "twist[ing]/shad[ing]" her words. Even while Enchant was not the hot scumread, the wording of this post suggests that Enchant is Mafia manipulating the evidence rather than a possibly incorrect player who could be town or scum. This is definitely a retaliatory attitude that is not helpful for anyone who is trying to read her.

When flow trap calls Sal out for a "victim tone” (a good way to describe it), she responds by a GIF "I don't care" (416). Rather than apologize as town for counterproductive tone, she shuts down further discussion. Her fear of being scumread is stronger than her motivation to scumhunt. Pointing out one scummy thing in an overall townread could anger her, which is actually the case with the response to EZ’s townread in 523.

Final Notes

At the time I started being rude to Sal (1108), as explained, I took the negative tone because I noticed Sal’s overdefensiveness and emotionality (if that’s a word). I would never have done this to a player who would counter me rationally and calmly, which I’d expect everyone else alive to do (except flow trap, who I townread anyway).

I don’t want to comment on her interactions with me today, as I still want to see how they play out.

Where do I exactly interact with you rudely first??? You're the one who started this rude behavior with me! How do I behave with

flow trap

is not f**k**g your business in the first place! You'll be rude first then also except that I'll behave with you

pOliEtLy

, like it's a joke or something!? When you really want to play lawyer for your dearest

flow trap

, why didn't you say anything when they vs me was actually happening??? Actually guess what, I change my mind, don't want to do any interaction with you ever.

[Salsabil Faria]

1. 553 is calling flow trap a hypocrite. Whether you're town or scum, you're avoiding discussion.
2. I got the feeling that "the people who scumread me are stupid" by your negative tones directed toward other players, in different phases of the game and of different experiences.

We have two choices. We can either:
a. continue our shouting match
b. discuss civilly
Please choose one.

c. ignoring you for life!

[flow trap]

How do I behave with flow trap is not your business in the first place!

... yes it is

[Prism]

I'm busy atm but the tone this is taking is rather vicious.

I don't like that floo is pushing the negative emotional reactions while baiting more of them. I don't think Salsabil's reaction is the best civil or the best way to play, but I don't understand how this is in good faith, floo.

[Prism]

It's one thing if you think the negative attitude is calculated, faked, or never happens at all if she's town. It's another when you correctly identify that she's angry if she's town and actively bait out more of it, only to take a step back and go "Whoa whoa whoa, civility now"

[Prism]

On another note entirely, 3 days on the clock. Start thinking of second/third choice votes.

[fferyllt]

Salsaibil has requested replacement. Searching...

[quiet]

Oh no .

UNVOTE:

[quiet]

Fred, I need you to sell me on your townyness. To do this, I think I need a few more details on your reads of the game. In a game full of +town players, I need to see something today that makes me feel like my gut read on you isn’t just paranoia talking.

Floo, I also am going to need some more reads on the rest of the room. Just top of your head. Bonus points for a response to the Prism quote I pulled.

As it stands, I think my vote has to be on one of those two now. I’m sad to see salsa go, though maybe I will have better luck sorting the new player. Sorry for anything I did to add to that dynamic.

[flow trap]

I'm most likely going to vote between Quiet/Spartan/Salsa Replacement

[floo]

Let's walk back to safebet222 first before I read quiet.

46 shows seriousness before even post 50, asking about player motivations (including OMGUS). safebet222 had been consistently more serious than flow trap despite both posting in short sentences.

86 to 91 progression is reaction testing as admitted in 99, but it has two intentions. Some players only think it was for the pressure; I also noticed that safebet222 states in 91 that he's proving a point that the Enchant wagon is harmless. The ensuing discussion benefited town, and as stated, scum wouldn't want that attention. I'll rate this only as slightly town-suggesting because it's still a strange move with possible layers of reverse logic.

safebet took the time to analyze reactions to his E-1 maneuver, defending it, along with looking at the wagon itself. He used this info to form 129's reads. This is towny, helping solve the puzzle and moving it into the mid-phase of D1. 144 might seem scummy in isolation because it looks like he just wants a wagon, but it's only a logical next step from a scumread.

345 is backtracking. Not because EZ pointed out that pair analysis was of little worth, but because EZ was too insistent on complaining to be scum even while being sussed for it. At that point it looked like the potential for an EZ wagon dried up though, and Prism's point is a good excuse to backtrack. Could be genuine, could be an excuse. NAI for me, but it shows safebet's (at least apparent) commitment to good logic and tells for reading regardless of his alignment.

459 Read list makes logical and genuine points for 5 players, but 3 reads look like putting a square peg into a round hole. Fred is nulled (not scumleaned!) for being "aloof and cryptic," while this is a reason to scumread flow trap. Even while it's mentioned that Fred has more experience than flow trap, so being aloof and cryptic should be more scummy for Fred.

You could get away with saying flow trap was "fake at hell" at the time, but flow trap has kept up his style the whole game. Doesn't seem fake anymore. What it really misses, though, is that flow trap is sophomoric (as in having some experience, but not enough to be truly "experienced"), and some anti-town/arrogant behavior mixed with genuine gamesolving is typical of this kind of player. Should have been nulled then.

An EZ read after the previously expressed EZ townread, is conveniently avoided because he posted a Pepe. The logic of the offensiveness isn't right. The ABC article quoted saying it's a hate symbol also says that Pepe's creation was not hateful - it's "a ubiquitous internet meme," and was only "hijacked" and "repurposed." Indeed, "its usage does not appear limited to promoting hate." Asking for a "policy elim" for this - really? I'm not defending EZ's use of Pepe, I'm just saying safebet overreacted. This is probably just safebet going too angry to think properly. It could be an excuse not to read EZ, but there's really no harm in an EZ townread. NAI in itself but just wanted to point this faulty read.

(I have been thinking that scum wanting to replace wouldn't post a full playerlist read. But there's about 16 hours between when safebet made his read list and final post to the replacement announcement - meaning that the replacement was probably sudden and not planned ahead. This isn't a town or scum tell in any way then.)

Of course every town has misconceptions or uses faulty logic at some point. safebet's other reads are logical though, so this seems more like just a slip-up rather than a calculated manipulation of reasoning. Overall I'd lean town on this slot before quiet replaced in.

[Spartan117]

Spoiler:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think Spartan117 has justified their scumread of me despite the fact that I have stated that he stated an opinion that had no justification.

Allow me to correct you Fredrick, because you are wrong. It honestly really frustrates me because I share the same concerns of flow trap that there is a chance you might be town and a miselim on you would be a big problem for us, if you are actually town you are making this really hard for us. But you continue to act the most sus player here, you have had as much time as everyone else here to read the thread we have had the night phase where you had time to catch up and work towards providing a meaningful contribution, there have been two player deaths which you could review the wagon on Enchant and EZs flip on which you could review their interactions and who might want them dead, there is lots of material for you to use to actually try and solve the game whilst you would rather talk to the dead. If you want to scumread me that's fine, I'm all for it, but provide reasoning play the game if you are town, quote my posts that you think are scummy and explain what you think about my actions that are so suspicious, because I don't want to lose this game just because you can't be bothered to check my ISO...

VOTE: floo

Very scummy vote imo, has been lurking around and posting but still yet to provide any sort of detailed reads of their own as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town. Here voting off the back of other peoples reads without providing any sort of breakdown as to why they actually think they are sus or bringing anything new to the table.

Here in 215 I explained my read on you and your only response was watery and meaningless in 357 and 364.

Let me make this very clear. The part of your statement where you say "as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town." is an opinion. If you want me to take that seriously, you need to show me more reasons why you think that is the case. Otherwise, expect me to ignore that.

Fredrick
comes in with 90 their random vote on safebet seeming potentially a little opportunistic to jump on early to a potential reverse wagon that didn't formulate.
166 strange reaction to being voted, lack of desire to input thoughts and fight for reads, very reserved and not very townie.
173 again refusal to providing meaningful content with a mindset of "I don't have to" very much keeping their cards close to their chest, making it hard to get a well rounded read on them.
185 states that he is expressing his opinion on something but provides a pretty nothing statement that contradicts itself.
211 212 jumps on the back of Sals reasoning without providing any fresh ideas of their own to vote Floo, seems like a very scummy vote to me. something I called out in 215 which I don't believe was ever properly answered by them.

I don't like Fredricks aloofness and lack of pushing for reads, he has appeared to me very opportunistic, as for someone who should be one of the far more experienced members of this group as an SE and isn't pushing conversation or contributing to uncovering scum, if anything it feels like he is scum hiding in plain sight.
VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

Your comment on 166 does not explain why you think the reaction was strange. The rest of the comment says "lack of desire to input thoughts and fight for reads, very reserved and not very townie." It, however, does not explain why does any of what you observe make it "not very townie."

Your comment on 173 says that I refused to provide meaningful content. Any attempt to read the post would demonstrate that I was not refusing to provide meaningful content and was refusing something else entirely.

Your comment on 185 fails to point out the non-existant contradiction. Also, I disagree that it is a "pretty nothing statement."

Your comment on 211 212 simply states that it is a very scummy vote to you. I was given no indication of what may change your mind.

Finally, you further state what makes you think I am scum. However, the comments on which you base your conclusion on are not falsifiable and you do not have any reason to make any of these conclusions.

Here in 746 where I share my reads I go into detail breaking down your posts and giving an explanation as to why I voted you D1, the fact that you are an SE and are an experienced player and are doing this just makes me think you aren't very experienced playing as scum. You seem to struggle to formulate reads, providing twice as many posts as floo while they have provided plenty of content, breakdown of their thoughts and reads.

Overall you come across as a very defensive player who seems to have something to hide. 166 173 show you being over defensive and look to be afraid of the spotlight being put on you. Requires meaning on why they are being scum read in order to respond and contribute but then doesnt provide any meaning behind their own votes, as seen in 191 212 (212s only elaboration appears to be in the meaningless post of 364 ) 626 853

And now, you think 166 and 173 are "defensive and look to be afraid of the spotlight being put on you" for no reason. I "Requires meaning on why they are being scum read in order to respond" only when asked to defend myself.

He likes to appear to be playing the game casting votes without actually applying any pressure, not actually contributing anything to the group which is indicative of scum.

863 makes me laugh because you actually request the reasoning for my opinion while quoting my reasoning breaking down your posts with me explaining why I think you are scum. You state

There was no reasoning for your opinion for me to argue against

I'll set you a challenge, in your 75 posts quote us which ones have you providing meaningful content trying to solve the game, otherwise I'm placing my vote on you.

I refuse to place my vote on you now as I do not wish to put you to L-1 at this moment in time when D2 has only just begun, I do not want you or your scum buddy to come along and hammer you, there is still much discussion to be had and people to hear from, and after all there are 2 scum.

I had planned to put my attention on Sal and review their posts in answer to their 1080 and I shall do, but to do it justice I shall have to do that later.

So everyone here we are, another day another single post from fredrick, I simply do not understand why he is being defended, where are his contributions this post if you could even call it that is just another attempt to deflect and be dismissive. In 1104 I proposed to you a challenge Fredrick and you didn't even attempt it, I'm hardly surprised tbh. So this single post of yours which I had to wait a whole 2 days for, disregards all of what I have said, and responds with this...

Let me make this very clear. The part of your statement where you say "as if they are unable to because they know everyone is town." is an opinion. If you want me to take that seriously, you need to show me more reasons why you think that is the case. Otherwise, expect me to ignore that.

You are an SE who has experience with this game, yet all you can do is dismiss what I say, openly announcing, I should expect you to ignore what I write. Its frustrating like what am I suppose to work with when you are not going to provide anything and try your hardest to be as scummy as possible.

Your comment on 211 212 simply states that it is a very scummy vote to you. I was given no indication of what may change your mind.

Fredrick why are you asking me what may change my mind, why would it matter to townFredrick what you would need to do to appease me to take my vote off you, how about like I have pleaded with you to actually play the game and try and find scum instead of being a spectator and prodge whenever you feel like it.

I'll set you a challenge, in your 75 posts quote us which ones have you providing meaningful content trying to solve the game, otherwise I'm placing my vote on you.

Like I said, I set you a challenge and you failed, I honour my word VOTE: Fredrick