Mini Normal 2185 | EFoBBBiO | Game Over!

[ejjinami]

Galron checked me N2. Apparently he got freaked out by my setup spec as well because I pretty much claimed to not be a pure neighbor (and he read trendal as VT)... so for some reason he decided to check me

Wouldn't even just a regular Town Neighbor show up as not VT? Am I wrong abt that? I don't get why he checked you if that's the case.

A neighbor is a neighbor, not a vanilla townie... Or at least that’s how I understand it
I think he just got confused

Except your mechanical win is a lie since Gamma isn't really clear. We only had 2 miselims left, and there are 3 or four Town in the PoE. Our odds of winning went down, especially since you convinced me to vote for someone I had removed from my PoE.

I mean, it should have still made it way more likely for mafia to want to kill me? That was the main goal there, I couldn’t have given anyone a mech win anyway

Sorry for misguiding you as well. I guess 2 people already mean something :/

could you tell me how I could have avoided it? OWER was in my PoE since the beginning of the game so I’ll admit that I didn’t consider that aspect of it. If I screwed up here, I’m sorry.

The only thing I know I could have done better is claim a RB on gamma N2 and N3... this would make them the only person who could have known about my role
According to one of the posts bugs wrote, he believed me to be an investigative D3, so it’s highly unlikely that the mafia had info about my role prior to N3 (and they can’t use any abilities with only 1 mafia remaining so checking me N3 wouldn’t be an option either)

[ejjinami]

@ejj

Like Lunar said I let the OWER hang go through because I thought we were essentially in mech autowin. If we end up losing to scum!Luca your play probably wouldn't make the difference, but if scum ends up being in Lunar/Gamma and they win, it probably comes down to the point on your racket yesterday.

from my pov, I thought you all would want to lynch me D4... So it was either dying from a lynch or using the mafia to get rid of me instead
gamma, luca, ower or lunar... as long as I got lynched, the PoE would have still stayed bad :/

but it seems that I made a bad judgement here as well

Another question: why were you assuming that mafia would target you? I don't understand why they'd ever choose to nightkill you if they believed your claim.

because role-blocker works as a cop when there’s only 1 mafia remaining xD
if they believed my claim and had no way to defend themselves against it, what else would they want to do?

[joqiza]

People hung OWER yesterday for voting you, when today by your own admission your roleclaim yesterday was a lie. On his side, he was justified in recognizing that you were capping about your role, regardless of what your alignment ends up being.

Idk. Maybe you didn't change anything if the collective town PoE had OWER in it anyway. I'm not sure that's the case, but it's not worth harping over now.

Also to me it doesn't make sense for mafia to target you because mafia is either 1. gamma, and they know you're capping, 2. one of Luca/Lunar, and if they believe your claim they believe Gamma is cleared, so by killing you they'd just lock in a PoE of 2 when town has 2 eliminations.

[Lunar Martian]

Here's what you could have done differently: you could have not lied to us, and instead played as a part of a team...

[joqiza]

Ejji if you can explain how mafia targetting you last night would have actually given autowin, that might help me understand your perspective.

[ejjinami]

actually, some feedback would be appreciated.
I judged that if I’m bound to get lynched anyway, trying to force mafia to night-kill me might be worth a shot.

From what I see, I overestimated how much people scum-read me and made a mistake by claiming a block on too many people (N1 frog, N2+N3 gamma would have been better)

is there anything else I could have changed?
If you think it was not worth trying, I’d be grateful for talking about that as well. I asked about it a bit in the hood but getting more opinions would be great
I’ll try to correct myself in the future

P.edit:

Also to me it doesn't make sense for mafia to target you because mafia is either 1. gamma, and they know you're capping, 2. one of Luca/Lunar, and if they believe your claim they believe Gamma is cleared, so by killing you they'd just lock in a PoE of 2 when town has 2 eliminations.

that’s why it was also a reaction test xD
I tried threatening gamma a bit in the hood. Like, making it clear that I strongly believe that my plan will work and that I’ll heavily scum-read them if it doesn’t. I stopped later on cuz I ended up finding reasons to town-read him
but eh

giving luca potential info was a mistake...

N3 I believed that mafia was among [gamma, lunar, ower]... giving info only to gamma didn’t seem like a bad move to me then (as even in case of everything failing, this could have still been informative)
I apologize tho, I realize that I screwed up there

[Lunar Martian]

People hung OWER yesterday for voting you, when today by your own admission your roleclaim yesterday was a lie. On his side, he was justified in recognizing that you were capping about your role, regardless of what your alignment ends up being.

Idk. Maybe you didn't change anything if the collective town PoE had OWER in it anyway. I'm not sure that's the case, but it's not worth harping over now.

Also to me it doesn't make sense for mafia to target you because mafia is either 1. gamma, and they know you're capping, 2. one of Luca/Lunar, and if they believe your claim they believe Gamma is cleared, so by killing you they'd just lock in a PoE of 2 when town has 2 eliminations.

2/5 of the remaining Town had OWER outside of PoE, at least. Maybe more. OWER died because Ejji made it seem like the PoE was down to one person and the game was solved.

Ejji, who was going to vote you? I don't understand what the hell was going through your head... a couple people scumread you, but that's not the same as you dying for sure. Killing a Townie to save yourself is never a good trade. Especially if it's a Townie people recognize as Town.

[Lunar Martian]

actually, some feedback would be appreciated.
I judged that if I’m bound to get lynched anyway, trying to force mafia to night-kill me might be worth a shot.

From what I see, I overestimated how much people scum-read me and made a mistake by claiming a block on too many people (N1 frog, N2+N3 gamma would have been better)

is there anything else I could have changed?
If you think it was not worth trying, I’d be grateful for talking about that as well. I asked about it a bit in the hood but getting more opinions would be great
I’ll try to correct myself in the future

P.edit:

Also to me it doesn't make sense for mafia to target you because mafia is either 1. gamma, and they know you're capping, 2. one of Luca/Lunar, and if they believe your claim they believe Gamma is cleared, so by killing you they'd just lock in a PoE of 2 when town has 2 eliminations.

that’s why it was also a reaction test xD
I tried threatening gamma a bit in the hood. Like, making it clear that I strongly believe that my plan will work and that I’ll heavily scum-read them if it doesn’t. I stopped later on cuz I ended up finding reasons to town-read him
but eh

giving luca potential info was a mistake...

N3 I believed that mafia was among [gamma, lunar, ower]... giving info only to gamma didn’t seem like a bad move to me then (as even in case of everything failing, this could have still been informative)
I apologize tho, I realize that I screwed up there

NO. DO NOT LIE TO YOUR FELLOW TOWN.

[Luca Blight]

I’m busy atm, will catch-up in a bit.

[Lunar Martian]

Anyway, lets table this discussion for postgame. Let's solve the game at hand first.

[joqiza]

actually, some feedback would be appreciated.

Like Lunar said it's a discussion for post-game really.

Look I'm not some elite player, I'm not an arbiter if what's good play or not. I just don't feel we gained anything from your fakeclaim, I don't think mafia does anything except target a clear ever regardless, and I may have defended OWER more strongly if I'd known but I was comfortable cuz I figured "eh game is close to locked."

Just frustrating. There really wasn't a need for it anyway, we had 3 chances to hit mafia, like just claim your role and find scum, no need for all the shenanigans.

I'll go through the game... at some point. I think ejj may need to just Die today but I can give my thoughts for f3 if he flips town. To be frank I'm a bit burned out on mafia right now.

[Frogsterking]

bah

[ejjinami]

Ejji, who was going to vote you? I don't understand what the hell was going through your head... a couple people scumread you, but that's not the same as you dying for sure. Killing a Townie to save yourself is never a good trade. Especially if it's a Townie people recognize as Town.

Spoiler:

VOTE: eijinami

defended bugs really hard and that iso-analysis was trash. I think when eiji replaced into this game they knew their slot and team were going down hard and were desperately trying to salvage it.

Ejj is scum, I think.

N1 Amelie definitely protected Galron, and scum most probably targeted Galron based on her death. I need to do more analysis later.

eijinami needs to claim and give any reports they have to share, for sure. gamma can act as a fact-check.

And good, I'm glad to hear it. I know the game isn't over yet but my feeling is the last is in Ejji/Lunar and that town has done really well this game.

And if Galron was blocked N2 then presumably he’d have been less trusting of the hood?

Yeah that makes sense.

VOTE: Ejji

xD
you were literally the only person who town-read me

frogster- 100% town - hard scum-read on me
luca- (previously believed 99% town) - hard scum-read on me
OWER- PoE - very hard scum-read on me
Gamma- PoE - seemed suspicious in the hood but close to null
Joq- lock town - no idea
lunar- PoE - town-read

as long as we got to LyLo and there was at least 1 townie who scum-read me, we’d have lost. I can’t change my interactions and mafia wouldn’t kill people with incorrect reads
Trying to die in the most beneficial way possible was the best idea I thought of...

I did NOT think of that as of killing a “townie” to save myself tho
besides you, ower was still my biggest suspect
This might have been a bit selfish tho... I didn’t consider that it would force people to move their PoEs closer to mine

[joqiza]

Froggie you're dead chief

[ejjinami]

actually, some feedback would be appreciated.

I'll go through the game... at some point. I think ejj may need to just Die today but I can give my thoughts for f3 if he flips town. To be frank I'm a bit burned out on mafia right now.

then just vote me. I’d very much prefer to get lynched today than in F3

I’ll just give my thoughts, post my solve and... that’s probably it. You don’t really have to listen to me either, it’s not like my solve will get any better than anyone else’s here

VOTE: Ejji

hi frogster xD

[ejjinami]

.....I had this response in my open tabs but it seems I haven’t posted it
welp

Ejji if you can explain how mafia targetting you last night would have actually given autowin, that might help me understand your perspective.

I mean, this obviously wouldn’t work if the last mafia was a strongman or ascetic.

The mafia cannot use their abilities and perform the factional kill at the same time, which means that unless the last mafia was one of the roles above, they should have been afraid of a role-blocker.

Even if my checks weren’t perfect, the townies wouldn’t want to lynch those I checked.
and as long as the mafia had no way to defend themselves, they would have thought that me targeting them will always result in a semi-guilty check on them...

I presented the math here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12563681
I did exaggerate it a bit when saying that the game would be a “mech win”... but a game with 1-neap checked VT, 2 townies (who couldn’t have performed the factional kill), 1 role-blocker and 1 scum, would have 99% ended with the townies lynching the scum anyway.

[Lunar Martian]

People were literally laughing at me because I was voting "confirmed" Town. You have to give yourself and your fellow Town more credit than that. People don't just automatically vote like that in elo. Anyway, again. Not a discussion for right here and now. Who are your current scumreads and why?

[joqiza]

then just vote me. I’d very much prefer to get lynched today than in F3

gonna wait to hear from the full table first

[joqiza]

ejji the reason mafia kills outside you is if they take your claim at face value they're already in autoloss

nothing they can do matters if you're actually town roleblocker who's cleared gamma. if they kill you they lock themselves in the PoE anyway.

so unless they're strongman or ascetic like you mentioned they just play in the universes where you're lying about that role, cuz in the universes where you're telling the truth their decisions don't matter

and given how cracked a pure town hood with an investigative/protective/roleblocker would've been, it wouldn't be hard for mafia to make the deduction that your claim isn't real.

[Lunar Martian]

Mechanically I think it makes sense for there to be two Mafia with potential access to the hood, especially since one is a back-up. Luca isn't in the hood, right?

[joqiza]

yeah the og members of the hood were galron/amelie/trendall-slot(now ejjinami)

gamma and bugspray were backups joined when amelie got killed

[Lunar Martian]

Two Mafia backups makes the game a lot less swingy, because there's not really any scenario where Mafia has a chance of winning the game where they don't at some point gain access to the hood. The game could get thrown out of whack with only one back-up who dies early. This also suggests that maybe Ejji could be Mafia, but I still think there's no reason for Ejji as Mafia to hard defend me the way he did.

[ejjinami]

People were literally laughing at me because I was voting "confirmed" Town. You have to give yourself and your fellow Town more credit than that. People don't just automatically vote like that in elo. Anyway, again. Not a discussion for right here and now. Who are your current scumreads and why?

if not for the green check, I’d have more reasons to town-read all of you than joq... but apparently godfather isn’t a role commonly seen in normal games so the check on them being incorrect is really darn unlikely

no idea. If I were to take a guess right now, I’d probably still clear gamma... His way of hammering bugs + the setup make really good arguments for him being inno
I wrote quite a bit about bugs being “town”, yet he was like “ehh, you’re done now so I can hammer, right?” without even bothering to see if anyone would be convinced by it...

but I thought the exact same about luca’s interactions with bugs a day ago xd

and there’s still that part of my brain who wants to town-read you for tone.... despite you being the only one besides me with terrible interactions here


IF I were to place a shot..... luca?????????? but I’m pretty darn sure the only reason I think that way is because I don’t want my early game reads to turn out to be complete crap xd

Those are not reads btw... idk how to even call it but it’s closer to gut-guesses
planning to take a better look at this tomorrow
idk why I’m even writing this when I know that I have no intention of voting based on any of this anyway

ejji the reason mafia kills outside you is if they take your claim at face value they're already in autoloss

nothing they can do matters if you're actually town roleblocker who's cleared gamma. if they kill you they lock themselves in the PoE anyway.

so unless they're strongman or ascetic like you mentioned they just play in the universes where you're lying about that role, cuz in the universes where you're telling the truth their decisions don't matter

and given how cracked a pure town hood with an investigative/protective/roleblocker would've been, it wouldn't be hard for mafia to make the deduction that your claim isn't real.

well... that’s fair

Mechanically I think it makes sense for there to be two Mafia with potential access to the hood, especially since one is a back-up. Luca isn't in the hood, right?

tbh, setup-vise, it makes more sense for me to be mafia than gamma imo...
2 town neighbors + 1 scum neighbor
1 town backup + 1 scum backup

makes more sense than

3 town neighbors
2 scum backups

why add 2 backups at all in that case?
I remember gamma and bugs being surprised that there’s another backup btw (cuz they both joined at the same time after amelia died)... but I’ll have to check if it looks readable in any way or not

[ejjinami]

actually, I’m getting more and more curious of luca’s emotional range in his other games.... looking up his meta will probably not give great results but I kinda wanna do it after all

[Lunar Martian]

I explained why there might be 2 scum backups.