Newbie 2054 - GAME OVER

[Meuh]

@Harumi what are your reads on 2nd and me?

[Harumi Ayasato]

@Harumi what are your reads on 2nd and me?

I'll prepare an ISO read of both of you when I get the chance (which is not now).

[Cantripmancer]

Sorry for (essentially) V/LA over the weekend. I thought I'd have more opportunity. Catching up this morning as time permits.

[marcistar]

Marci I asked for two *outside myself*. In response to that he gave me two, one of which was myself.

also I'm highly tempted to ask if the reason you have six tabs open is because one is the scum pt

1. i think its possible for a townie to either completely miss over the "outside myself" of your part and just end up giving 2 scumreads...
its also possible they could've just not cared and really think you two are scum. this behavior which you think 2nd might have doesnt really = scum imo? didnt i explain why that being stubborn on reads does not always = scum????

i thought it would be better to wait and see but i wont lie, the more i argue about this the more im starting to townread them wtf i feel so bad for them.

2. yeah its sooo fun in there!! (nah i just had a tab open for a bunch of different posts but it got so so confusing)

[marcistar]

His solve right now is me + meuh, and when I asked him to provide two names outside of us he refused to do so.

The ending part of this is harsh, you think they refused but did they outright refused? I thought it was possible they could've skimmed over some stuff by accident.

but he doesn't even have any nulls

You didn't ask for nulls from them.

From the way

I

see this. You asked them for 2 scumreads (outside of urself), 1 townread.

I see it as possible that they could've skipped over the "outside of urself" part

(why dont u see this as possible btw? ) and then u mention how they dont have nulls when u never asked for that.
This is assuming that they did actually by accident skip over it, which is why it seems unfair imo.

[ItalianoVD]

vs harumi who i think doesnt rlly have a level of confidence.. idk but i thought in newbie games i thought scum would be more nervous..? i think her not having confidence = shes nervous = shes scum...

Is this really your reason for scumreading her? Lack of confidence? I’ve seen that from at least 3-4 slots. Surely there has to be more than that.

[Krazy]

If he failed to read the part that said 'outside myself' then he's not processing the game in a townie way

[Krazy]

Here's the better question -- do you *townread* chosen in a way that you *want* him alive tomorrow, marci?

[ItalianoVD]

I don’t think scum would fight hard to save a townie so I think the Marci/2nd connection is gonna be more like t/s or s/s. @Marci: I believe you are either mistaken or you are scum with 2nd.

I highly doubt that on Day 1 a townie would be that adamant about saving another townie without having knowledge that they are townie, so I don’t believe it’s a t/t connection. (I.e. they aren’t masons together)

[Krazy]

I can see scum white knighting a townie for towncred if they think the townie gets flipped despite the defense. I still townread marci from earlier in the game but I'm intrigued by how she's going to bat for chosen

[ItalianoVD]

I can see scum white knighting a townie for towncred if they think the townie gets flipped despite the defense.

Thats true, but in this case it’d be so obvious, at least in the way it’s being done.

[Kazyan]

I don’t think scum would fight hard to save a townie so I think the Marci/2nd connection is gonna be more like t/s or s/s. @Marci: I believe you are either mistaken or you are scum with 2nd.

I highly doubt that on Day 1 a townie would be that adamant about saving another townie without having knowledge that they are townie, so I don’t believe it’s a t/t connection. (I.e. they aren’t masons together)

Is there any particular reason that this doesn't also apply to the Kazyan/2nd connection?

[ItalianoVD]

Is there any particular reason that this doesn't also apply to the Kazyan/2nd connection?

No.

[Krazy]

Technically it'd be more accurate to accuse you of chainsawing, I think, Kazy.

[marcistar]

Here's the better question -- do you *townread* chosen in a way that you *want* him alive tomorrow, marci?

no townread on chosen, but yes i want them alive for tomorrow. i feel like theres better elims for today
i wanna sort chosen out d2 (when they would

hopefully

have more time to post..?)

I don’t think scum would fight hard to save a townie so I think the Marci/2nd connection is gonna be more like t/s or s/s. @Marci: I believe you are either mistaken or you are scum with 2nd.

I highly doubt that on Day 1 a townie would be that adamant about saving another townie without having knowledge that they are townie, so I don’t believe it’s a t/t connection. (I.e. they aren’t masons together)

i dont know if chosens town tbh, but i feel like they arent the best elim for today.
if chosens actually scum i dont mind being eliminated next if itll help clear the towns confusion.

I can see scum white knighting a townie for towncred if they think the townie gets flipped despite the defense. I still townread marci from earlier in the game but I'm intrigued by how she's going to bat for chosen

what do u mean by "bat for chosen"..? are you meaning how far ill go for defending them..?
i honestly didn't see anything wrong with them if chosens actually scum im gonna feel a bit like a clown i wont lie.

whats chainsawing???

[Meuh]

whats chainsawing???

Chainsaw Defense

The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.



Taken from the wiki

[Krazy]

Actually chainsaw maybe doesn't work here since it's day 1 and marci was kinda moving toward meuh anyway, but if they were s/s I think that's the right word

[2ndchosen1]

I currently see marci as a null, the defense doesn't exactly pocket me and she is clearly asking for more on your thought process on me rather than an actual rush to my aid. Some of the more recent ones even mention that she doesn't see me as innocent but wants to see more of your reasoning. It's not pocketing me, it's not even fighting for my innocence, just wanting to know more from you and me. I see the action as a whole NAI.

@meuh is what kazyan's done really enough of an attack on Krazy that it could be called chainsawing? yes or no, and why you think so, if you'd please.

@krazy, I thought it was kazyan, not marci, you were accusing of chainsaw?
"Technically it'd be more accurate to accuse you of chainsawing, I think,

Kazy.

"

[Meuh]

@meuh is what kazyan's done really enough of an attack on Krazy that it could be called chainsawing? yes or no, and why you think so, if you'd please.

I assumed the implication was that Kazyan was chainsawing me, not Krazy. If the implication was that they were chainsawing Krazy, then no I wouldn't say that was the appropriate term, I don't recall Kazyan making any real push against Krazy.
If it was to imply me, then yes, I would say so, since I'm one of the people pushing on you, and Kazy has shifted to more aggressively pushing me since I've started on you.

[Meuh]

pushing on you*

[Meuh]

Oh and to clarify my read on Marci as she's being brought up, I've been townleaning on her from the start and that has not changed. The light pushing on me isn't gonna ultimately help the town, but I don't scumread her for it.

[Krazy]

@krazy, I thought it was kazyan, not marci, you were accusing of chainsaw?
"Technically it'd be more accurate to accuse you of chainsawing, I think, Kazy."

idk I keep struggling with that particular term since there's so many conditions for something to *really* be a chainsaw, it's actually a pretty specific thing that I keep thinking of as basically "attacking someone pushing your buddy to indirectly protect your buddy by lowering the pusher's towncred" -- that's probably way more broad than the wiki definition of chainsawing, but it's the sort of internalized version I think of for the term

In this case, I think Kazy attacking Meuh and Marci attacking Meuh while Meuh is attacking you loosely falls into that pattern, but honestly it might not be that useful of a concept given it can risk coming off as poisoning the well against day 1 pushes.

And in any case I actually think the game is way more fun thinking of Kazy as a fellow town trying to outpush me on their scumread, which matches my sense they're town, but in a world where I'm wrong and you're both scum together then this would actually be, retroactively, be describable as a ballpark chainsaw.

[Meuh]

Just to make sure everyone's following, what's being discussed here is "a player (Marci/Kazyan) who defends another player (2ndchosen) by attacking the other player's attacker (Meuh) is very probably scum" and if the scenario fits that description/warrants a scumread on Marci and/or Kazyan.

[Kazyan]

Krazy's "poisoning the well" perspective makes more sense to me, combined with the "UPDATE" part of the Chainsaw description, because otherwise, you're basically not allowed to have counterwagons on Day 1 without getting targeted yourself. That benefits no one.

[Krazy]

Basically, I don't think it's correct to say that scumreading someone that is pushing someone else will always be a chainsaw (at least not without a red flip on the defended player) but it is important to consider how strongly you townread the top push of the person you're pushing, since there is always the risk you destroy a wagon on scum. This is why "OMGUS" while flawed actually isn't *that bad* day 1, since if you counter-push the person pushing you you're guaranteed to not be destroying a wagon on scum (there can be other problems with OMGUS, mostly in regard to if both players adopt that philosophy it can lead to TvT tunnels) but I think OMGUS gets a bad rap since your own alignment is the one you actually know, unless you're scum lol