Warehouse 13: The Mafia Game (Game Over)

[SirCakez]

I will do that meta dive soon.tm

[Tammy]

Tammy what are your thoughts on Battle Mage?

I think he's pretty scummy. I thought he was somewhat townish early. Then I thought he might have been a mason partner with LLD. IN fact, the way I read Battle Mage's reaction to Lld's claim as mason partner is why I initially believed LLD"s claim. But then I reread later, and I think I really misinterpreted. And then the change on his read on MathBlade for the dumb survivalstic reasons that Dunnstral claimed earlier felt all kinds of wrong, and really his posts just read smarmy to me and not at all fun troll like in xenoblade.

Damn it you are inside my head. I don't remember us synching quite like this in the ancient games of yore.

I’ve learned how to paint my face, how yo earm my keep, how o clean my kill.

Think we worked against each other more than together in the days of yore. I may have been messier too then.
But I am going to sleep!

Let’s see how well I can type while in the passenger seat.

I wanted to pick this back up now that I’m sober. In addition to the above, we did come to a realization at some point that if we could figure out how to find each other as town and work together, we’d have a strong chance to stomp scum, but that never quite materialized for a few reasons and then we both took breaks soon after I think.

I don’t think it’s too surprising though. I don’t think as masons or as a hydra we were too far off in how we viewed quite a few things? Maybe here and there.

You can talk to me about whatever niggles you have though! If they’re things to talk about though it does amuse me that I’m still tantalus with that ffery town read just out of reach. :p.

The know that I should be doing my DUE DILIGENCE and read the parts I missed or be pushing something more, but uh I’m just kinda not in the mood to. I don’t think it will affect my view of the game state and I’m kinda bored and don’t really care about a lot of what’s been posted. Perhaps that’s in part due to the fact that I spent the week doing nothing but grading and my brain is spent or to how I’m feeling about mafia and the place I want mafia in my life right now. Funny story, but I logged into the site last week to out from the game only to find a role pm instead. I’m glad I didn’t out now as I’m having fun, but that’s where my head is at with mafia right now.

I’m still trying to figure out what I think about Titus and I’m trying to make sense of how I feel about her read on me. I’m not surprised she’s scum reading me because she’s not that great at reading me even though she’ll say how easy I am to read sometimes. So the early posting and around me makes sense in trying to read me and start maybe town then think scum later is consistent with how past games reads of me have gone. As either alignment actually now that I think about it. But what I find odd is that she earlier defended me that my absences were nai but then basically used that as her scum read. Felt off but don’t know how off it is for Titus. Other than that I haven’t liked a lot of what she’s done, and I don’t like the grousing about it being a town loss due to post restrictions etc; it’s just that she feels fake.

If my understanding of the game state is at all correct then I think at least one of Titus, battle mage, and quiet is scum. (I kinda like cakes getting weirded out that people are too easily putting quiet into their scum reads. He probably doesn’t realize that it was that kind of feeling with regards to Norfolk in popcorn.)

[Tammy]

Add dune trap to that bit.

[Bell]

Mathblade case: Per request of one(1) Mathblade.
I am not going to link to other games to support my points because it's a pain.

1. I find it pretty common that scum ask you to apply a standard of proof that they themselves never live up to. It makes it harder to eliminate them. Demanding someone make a case on you is a waste of time for the person making it while the person who benefits most from it is the person asking for the case. Mathblade is quite willing and able to pounce on any verbal mistake or contradiction to save himself while discrediting the case maker. Moving on.

2. Math is a fighter. He will continue to wiggle and flail until he is dead. He almost always is the center of attention and he is almost always one of the highest posters in a game as scum. This is not unique to his town game.

3. The town PR misunderstanding tactic. Mathblade as scum will go off on tangents of moon logic, it is not unique to his town game. There is a big temptation to write Mathblade off as too insane to be scum. Don't. He's quite able to be insane as scum, he knows what gets him town read, as long as he continuously fake hunts with whatever ideas come to mind eventually people will give up. Mathblade has no subtlety this game. Every PR he has thought he has identified he has immediately reacted to with the subtlety of a 3rd grader. Benefiting nobody but his own image as "look, I am thinking about PR's, Look I am subtly implying that this person is a PR without screaming it from the roof tops wink wink so pro town* (it's not protown).

4. Mathblade is a hypocrite. Before Titus was a defeatist. Mathblade was a defeatist that thought he was absolutely going to be the elimination today based on forecasting. He then spent the rest of the game being the ultimate survivalist. When Titus started talking defeatist stuff, he immediately took a 180, cribbed off of the logic that Gray and LLD have for killing people that don't want to play and applying it for simple cover (never mind that I strongly disagree that Titus wants to be eliminated because thinking "I'm going to be eliminated" is not the same thing as "I want to be eliminated", it is a self-fulfilling prophecy sure, but it's a misinterpretation of intent).

5. Mathblade is misrepresenting people's feelings around his play because it's more convenient to be the victim of a policy elimination than it is to be scum read for reasons. Multiple people have noted that Titus might be scum partners with Mathblade. Given the way she pushed at him as a policy. But this just wasn't true of LLD's opinions about him, but he made them into them and ignored her arguing to the contrary because it's easier to dig in then change your mind which would require him to defend his actions than to reduce the argument that people just dislike him and don't think he's any good.

6. He made an appeal to utility, an appeal to fear and an appeal for sympathy. All of them manipulative. I'm useful I won't let you down! You're going to regret eliminating me (a claimed VT day 1), "People just want to eliminate me because the think I suck, that's not fair!"

Anddd. I could probably go on but I don't really want to. I hate writing things.

[Tammy]

And mastina

And yeah I feel even better about bell town.

[Bell]

Tangential: Quiet replacing out upticks him as scum. I also think it makes sense for SirCakez to take that position of sympathy and also think it's entirely possible if quiet is a university student or whatnot that he just repped to focus on that stuff. It's difficult to prove. whatever combination of reasons led to him leaving. A better player could probably interpret the quiet stances on rep out and figure out alignments.
Alas. I am bad.

[Tammy]

I’m not sure what bells math case does for me. I read it I appreciate it, but it did more to help me on bell than on math. It’s just that some of those things could also be consistent with math town, but I am getting to the point where I’m not going to fight it because good gods do I not want this to be the discussion tomorrow too.

[SirCakez]

It's not really that I think anything quiet did was especially townie
I just find it odd how he ran straight to the bottom of everyone's readslists
Feels very LHF

[MathBlade]

I’m not sure what bells math case does for me. I read it I appreciate it, but it did more to help me on bell than on math. It’s just that some of those things could also be consistent with math town, but I am getting to the point where I’m not going to fight it because good gods do I not want this to be the discussion tomorrow too.

That was one of my points. The other is since Bell is tunnelled to give him practice casing me and seeing flaws.

I am pretty sure what Grey ICE is alluding to and Bell is a townread.

I didn’t want him lumped in with Titus/Mastina who I scumread for attacking me. I also see the futures of a really good player so going to try to see if I can help him be better.

His case is not really a case and for that I am disappointed in that it’s more opinion of how he’s interpreting it versus Math posted X. It was scummy because his intent is Y.

I think it’s not prudent for town to continue this long term but I will leave this here for him

Spoiler: For Bell

You’ve played with scum!Me Bell to know that if I was scum (not the case here) I am strategic. What was done here while has effort, can mostly be dismissed with a hand wave or simple statement if I was scum. Scum!Me moves people and pieces like a chess board for opportunities. What pieces am I moving? Who am I manipulating? These are the questions a case that I am scum should answer.

Repeating the same things like what LLD is doing rather than explaining how you think I am manipulating things is noise. Admittedly yes this is a higher standard than some players, but look at how Titus is being cased. It’s not a simple “Titus was manipulative” She’s manipulative as town or scum. It’s that she’s not manipulative in her town way. She’s not trying to townblock. She’s trying to make the game disheartening. Contrast this to my recent Boonskiies game. I poisoned the thread with “day has gone on forever” repeatedly. I was negative. In this game I am not. I did point out I was depressed and frustrated yes, and at some points I thought I would be the elim so I tried to put town in the best position possible.

Therefore I will address each of your points in turn.

1. I do not see your point here. I do mini cases throughout the day. If you’re going to say a widely townread player who is good at scum is scum, you have to bring enough to convince people. That’s the nature of mafia and says nothing to my alignment.

2. If something is not unique to my scum game, it’s not good for your case. At best you argue why people should be weary of me, which in this player list, nearly everyone if not everyone has experienced my scum game. They’re already weary. Keep word count low or you’ll lose people.

3. I explore every option as any alignment. The Boonskiies scum PT shows this. As any alignment, I am deadly at finding PRs. This is demonstrated on several occasions. Sometimes, I use manipulation and misdirection to try to help paint a VT as a PR to hurt scum. Sometimes I crumb across things that “hey obvious is obvious” so they have time to stop or plan a counter. I am 100% being manipulative here, out of necessity I agree. Manipulation yes no isn’t a checkbox. Manipulating people so we have a town block scum can’t assault is win win. If you think you noticed something it’s probably the thing I want scum to think while backwards signaling to town. Or maybe you’re right and you caught my signal. Who knows? The point is look at the results.

4. This is not a misrep. If you’re going to pick a misrep example, pick a valid one. Titus herself said she would replace out of it wasn’t strategic. Yes I am a bit of a hypocrite (addressed above) but good people can and sometimes should be hypocritical. Mafia while alignments can be green and red sometimes have to do alignment grey things to do the best thing for town.

5. There isn’t a thing to defend. Here in lies the issue. The only action brought up is the reaction test earlier. This is why specific posts are necessary for a case. If I was scum LLD’s assertions I am scum can be dismissed because they have so little explanation. What

6. I already addressed I did AtE but it was logically consistent. There is no case. And the simple answer is because there can’t be. I am beyond reproach this game with actual scumminess.

Please don’t go on with stuff like this Bell in the future. Case me properly if you want me elimmed.

Take a look at Boonskiies final day where I was elimmed. We had our traitor almost bussed and dead to rights (on accident) despite nearly the entire thread saying I was scum. This is because it was prudent to set up Titus. The answer if you think I am scum is to worry about elimming me and what that means.

If you wish to case me tomorrow, go ahead. But I think if you try to do what I asked above you can’t.

So I am thinking barring the world’s best catchup Titus or Mastina today.

[Kitty Trauma Team]

It's not really that I think anything quiet did was especially townie
I just find it odd how he ran straight to the bottom of everyone's readslists
Feels very LHF

I like this post.

@Math:

I do got a question and it’s not even a huge one, but how did you confuse Kuribo and I?

-M

[MathBlade]

I know I did do that, but I don’t remember when or why. Everything blurs together. My best guess would be trying to rapid fire posts while working /after work and I got exhausted and brain fried.

[sangres]

Tammy what are your thoughts on Battle Mage?

I think he's pretty scummy. I thought he was somewhat townish early. Then I thought he might have been a mason partner with LLD. IN fact, the way I read Battle Mage's reaction to Lld's claim as mason partner is why I initially believed LLD"s claim. But then I reread later, and I think I really misinterpreted. And then the change on his read on MathBlade for the dumb survivalstic reasons that Dunnstral claimed earlier felt all kinds of wrong, and really his posts just read smarmy to me and not at all fun troll like in xenoblade.

Damn it you are inside my head. I don't remember us synching quite like this in the ancient games of yore.

I’ve learned how to paint my face, how yo earm my keep, how o clean my kill.

Think we worked against each other more than together in the days of yore. I may have been messier too then.
But I am going to sleep!

Let’s see how well I can type while in the passenger seat.

I wanted to pick this back up now that I’m sober. In addition to the above, we did come to a realization at some point that if we could figure out how to find each other as town and work together, we’d have a strong chance to stomp scum, but that never quite materialized for a few reasons and then we both took breaks soon after I think.

I don’t think it’s too surprising though. I don’t think as masons or as a hydra we were too far off in how we viewed quite a few things? Maybe here and there.

You can talk to me about whatever niggles you have though! If they’re things to talk about though it does amuse me that I’m still tantalus with that ffery town read just out of reach. :p.

Day 1 of Smokefilled, you were paranoid of me all the way up to the traitor in the dethy flipped scum. I don't think our reads outside of each other were hugely different, maybe strengths differed? After that, we were confirmed town and any differences were stuff we could work on knowing the other was discussing in good faith.

Same was true of our hydra with Syr. We shared a role PM and didn't have the cognitive load of trying to figure each other out while comparing notes on other players.

This post is actually a decent example of what bugs me. Elsewhere, you have asked my opinions on stuff here and there, which I like because I feel like that's a good way to figure out if my stances are real or not, but instead of telling me what's bugging you about my play you sort of tease the not-town-yet stuff in a way that doesn't actually look concerned. Maybe it's not a priority because you expect to be able to read Nacho easily once he's back and putting data into the thread again. I think on a baseline level I'm a much easier player to read than Nacho is for people who have played a few games with me, but Nacho probably is an easier read for you than he is for 99.99 of the universe.

In Tenet you were straight up about the initial post of mine that bugged you. And in smoke-filled you expressed your paranoia with a lot more oomph both in the PT and in the game thread until it was made completely moot.

The know that I should be doing my DUE DILIGENCE and read the parts I missed or be pushing something more, but uh I’m just kinda not in the mood to. I don’t think it will affect my view of the game state and I’m kinda bored and don’t really care about a lot of what’s been posted. Perhaps that’s in part due to the fact that I spent the week doing nothing but grading and my brain is spent or to how I’m feeling about mafia and the place I want mafia in my life right now. Funny story, but I logged into the site last week to out from the game only to find a role pm instead. I’m glad I didn’t out now as I’m having fun, but that’s where my head is at with mafia right now.

I’m still trying to figure out what I think about Titus and I’m trying to make sense of how I feel about her read on me. I’m not surprised she’s scum reading me because she’s not that great at reading me even though she’ll say how easy I am to read sometimes. So the early posting and around me makes sense in trying to read me and start maybe town then think scum later is consistent with how past games reads of me have gone. As either alignment actually now that I think about it. But what I find odd is that she earlier defended me that my absences were nai but then basically used that as her scum read. Felt off but don’t know how off it is for Titus. Other than that I haven’t liked a lot of what she’s done, and I don’t like the grousing about it being a town loss due to post restrictions etc; it’s just that she feels fake.

If my understanding of the game state is at all correct then I think at least one of Titus, battle mage, and quiet is scum. (I kinda like cakes getting weirded out that people are too easily putting quiet into their scum reads. He probably doesn’t realize that it was that kind of feeling with regards to Norfolk in popcorn.)

Who's dune trap?

I agree with you on Cakez. I like his take on all the quiet reads.

-----------------

@Bell I feel like part of what you're saying is that a lot of what people are townreading Math for is actually NAI. Point 5 is probably the thing that resonates most as being a scum-marker to me, though misrepping and misunderstanding are very close neighbors.

Is this a fair take on your case? Because if it is, then maybe I'm giving Math a much stronger townread than his play deserves.

[Tammy]

Ffery - I’m not bothered about your play. I have a decently town read on you.

I was joking about me always being just short of a town read for you.

[Tammy]

Dune trap is my phones version of dunnstral.

[Tammy]

Beyond that I’m not really sure what you want from me. I’ve asked the questions I’ve wanted to ask. I have a view of the game I’m somewhat comfortable with, and the things I’d like to settle aren’t going to happen right this minute. I’m just playing the game and I feel good. If your niggles are that I haven’t asked you more questions, we’ll I don’t know what to do with that because I’ve asked what I wanted to and yeah I don’t know.

I realize you’re gonna be in a weirder state maybe, and that’s fine.

[Tammy]

Sorry for a bunch of posts in a row, lumbering around the streets of Chicago so my thoughts are broken

But I don’t understand your post at all ffery, and maybe you misunderstood me. The basic gist of part of that was that it didn’t surprise me that we’d be in sync on something.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage went V/LA right? He does feel less present then normal atm but I felt his early game was transparently town.

yeah I'm VLA until Monday PM - here now though for a quick visit. you're right i'm quieter, i'm pretty burnt out tbh.

[Battle Mage]

I hated Battle Mage's vote on Mathblade, he had a previously stated town read on him and his justification for the 180 in the read was that Mathblade was being survivalistic which I already explained is like the exact opposite way I would characterize Math's behavior. He also had a post that rubbed me the wrong way about SirCakez having a great scum game, which to me seemed to fuel the fire of the ongoing Cakez paranoia at the time without really contributing his thoughts on Cakez in a meaningful way? Felt like scum taking a potshot from the sidelines. And while I was Scum in both Xenoblade and Pooky vs. FL (I sound like a broken record) I thought Battle Mage was super obviously Town in both those games and I don't get those vibes here. But I also didn't give a fuck about reading him in those games so take that with a grain of salt.

I think you're just wrong about Math's behaviour, and I'm not the only one who has said so (Dunnstral had exactly the same take as me). It was blatantly survivalistic, and from what I've skimmed, remains as such. I even posted a long list of evidence to demonstrate the point. Not much to say on your Cakez point - I literally just made an observation about the scumgame improving, which is again quite clear from the meta (and i don't think anyone is refuting this). I made a valid observation (as i have done for several players, although you haven't commented on any of these), but you're tilting in a negative way. At best, I'd say your assessment seems a bit bad-faith and lacks the balance of a truly objective take - although not a criticism, I'm hardly scumhunter of the year.

[Battle Mage]

that's it from me for tonight.

[sangres]

Beyond that I’m not really sure what you want from me. I’ve asked the questions I’ve wanted to ask. I have a view of the game I’m somewhat comfortable with, and the things I’d like to settle aren’t going to happen right this minute. I’m just playing the game and I feel good. If your niggles are that I haven’t asked you more questions, we’ll I don’t know what to do with that because I’ve asked what I wanted to and yeah I don’t know.

I realize you’re gonna be in a weirder state maybe, and that’s fine.

Actually I feel better now.

synching with me while not townreading me just felt...off. Directionally we've been coming to similar, though not identical, impressions in our most recent games. This game feels like the sync got tighter, which taken outside the question of your read of me, isn't a huge wtf moment.

I'm not going to belabor that or point out examples from prior games or stuff because my impression that you weren't townreading me was wrong, from what you said earlier today. I mean, you asked me about my niggle, so I explained it, and that part didn't have much to do with our reads synching.

Sorry for a bunch of posts in a row, lumbering around the streets of Chicago so my thoughts are broken

But I don’t understand your post at all ffery, and maybe you misunderstood me. The basic gist of part of that was that it didn’t surprise me that we’d be in sync on something.

I did misunderstand. I thought your tantalus thing was serious!

[Bell]

@Sangres, yes some of my points were addressed to people that had made arguments that he was town. I was cutting down those arguments first.
The only real reason I'm scum reading him is survivalism and a shallow thought process, well that and horrific opportunism and a feeling he doesn't have a single scum read he cares for. I felt like cold water got thrown on me from his post in response to me. But then I realized it was, "actually, I am town and I've done nothing wrong" a mere confidence game argument. Won't lie though I am shook because I'm weak to confidence gaming. I still don't understand why his internal reasoning is so goddang shallow for his town and scum reads. The only time he seemed to break through that was on Titus and then he just went the easy route and I can see motivation for him to check on his sister as either alignment really.

Mastina's read of Titus gives me pause. Not because I disagree, but because I have noticed that fatalistic impulse from town Titus. But I'm not sure what it means that Mastina knows it too and obliviously, I have reached no conclusion like Mastina quickly does whenever she sees anything. I'm not sure about Titus for the simple reason that I'm not sure how far down the fatalism rabbit hole or thought process disruptions go to where you think the page limit is a serious issue.

The only thing its done really is made it slightly harder to read Tammy and KTT.

[MathBlade]

@Sangres, yes some of my points were addressed to people that had made arguments that he was town. I was cutting down those arguments first.
The only real reason I'm scum reading him is survivalism and a shallow thought process, well that and horrific opportunism and a feeling he doesn't have a single scum read he cares for. I felt like cold water got thrown on me from his post in response to me. But then I realized it was, "actually, I am town and I've done nothing wrong" a mere confidence game argument. Won't lie though I am shook because I'm weak to confidence gaming. I still don't understand why his internal reasoning is so goddang shallow for his town and scum reads. The only time he seemed to break through that was on Titus and then he just went the easy route and I can see motivation for him to check on his sister as either alignment really.

Mastina's read of Titus gives me pause. Not because I disagree, but because I have noticed that fatalistic impulse from town Titus. But I'm not sure what it means that Mastina knows it too and obliviously, I have reached no conclusion like Mastina quickly does whenever she sees anything. I'm not sure about Titus for the simple reason that I'm not sure how far down the fatalism rabbit hole or thought process disruptions go to where you think the page limit is a serious issue.

The only thing its done really is made it slightly harder to read Tammy and KTT.

I encourage people to reevaluate their reads they should. If scum want to miselim me or town want to tunnel me I am going to make them earn it. This seems a lot of words for my reads are shallow. My big question is how do you believe you know my internal reasoning? It’s inside my fuckin brain. I create webs in my head of players of how they react to other players. This web I do not write out each time due to the fact it’s wordy and hard to describe. Eg your map is rather limited due to your single minded focus. You’re not addressing the things I ask you to do and/or who I could be scum with which means if I am vigged that’s going to end up pretty bad for you. If you don’t start assuming I am scum and thinking about who with or taking into account playstyle you’re going to end up down my reads. This “shallow” you mention is undefined and the furthest thing I would use to describe how I keep my reads.

If I typed out every last reason for my reads, eyes would bleed and it’s unnecessary. There’s a value in succinctness especially when dealing with this player base. It’s clear you scum read me for survivalism and shallow. That’s your argument if I understand. Two words. If there’s something more you need to point it out. Survivalistic play is good for town, at points, to force scum aboard. And shallow is the last thing I am described at as either alignment. Moonlogic (which you’ve said yourself), crazy (much as that should be phased out), gambity, or ridiculous maybe, but almost never shallow.

[Bell]

I used less words, but you demanded I use more words. Normally I would have ignored the request.
I do not create nor ever want to create associations and a full team solve. The more assumptions I make the more likely I am to make a mistake. I keep that sort of effort for elo.

For example say I'm wrong on you and you aren't scum which isn't even that unlikely just from a random dice roll perspective.
Why would I argue you were partnered with X, when I don't even know you're scum yet? Why go through the extra effort of doing so?
I also don't care how far down your read of me goes. If I did, I wouldn't be scum reading you or anyone at all unless they're into that.

I've explained what is shallow about your reasoning in regards to how you recognize and approach people you think are PR's. I accused you of having shallow thoughts. If you had deep motivations you would presumably share them at my prompting. This is not a demand for you to share every single thing that pops into your head (please don't). It is an observation that when I look at your approach I don't see a style of thoughtfulness. In every game you've played as scum with me (except Cell games) you've had town's people point at you and say "you aren't thinking good, but I think you're town, here's how to think better." They're the suckers that keep you alive well past when you should live.

You are capable of having a deeper rationale an explaining yourself, you even do it automatically in some of your scum PT's. I'm tired of putting a hedge at the end of every post, so just assume I said, "and I know mathblade could be town here, because I've never played with town him" after every post.

[Dunnstral]

LLD - I know that you don't often like to talk about town reads, thought you sometimes will!, could you say something about why you have Dunn at 75% town?

Call it equal parts a desire to give them space to see more and something I've noted from recent games with them in which they have invariably flipped town each time.

It's not as high as others because I don't have the full confidence that Dunn is the exact same? Less active this game than I would expect, but I wonder if there's not other reasons for that.

In general I'm just not in favour of that being the kill today, and don't think any new info is learned by allowing dunn to undergo pressure.

Plus, I can leverage pressure on other parts of the game by denying that as an option and seeing whether they adapt or just flail.

You should temper your expectations, in the sense that expecting me to be more active isn't really fair if you look at my past games

The reason I'm meh on Titus elim is because I'm just not convinced that this is scum, I don't have anything other than their sort of weird play. Do we think they fake thinking they were hammered?

Mastina is being normal mastina in my eyes; I'm not seeing a special reason to elim her this game beyond the way she usually plays. I wouldn't call her towny, but yeah tunneling on one wrong flavor speculation is well within her town meta in my eyes

[borkjerfkin]

Don't care if I get yeeted. This game is a town loss. There's no cohesion or ability to get it thanks to the stupid post restriction.

really don't like this justification for "lack of cohesion"; we're maybe kinda sorta flirting with the limit but i doubt we'll reach it.