Dogs Vs. Cats Mafia | Endgame

[Something_Smart]

I disagree with every single thing you said here

I mean I'm explaining how I felt so I'm not sure if you think those aren't my real feelings or what

[Psyche]

I'm firmly of the kill other scum camp. My philosophy is thus: in a normal game of mafia, mafia are functionally masons with a NK. In multiball, for the purposes of the other scumteam they ACTUALLY ARE masons with a NK. you should give exactly as much attention to killing the other scumteam as you do to killing vigs, because they really are vigs.

i dunno if this fully scans
this other scum team has substantially different incentives for use of their kill (and their votes) than actual masons with an NK
if that scumteam is focusing their efforts on teeing up mislynches and otherwise disrupting towns' attempts to solve the game, they're way less of a threat at least

[Something_Smart]

Didnt bank on being close to conf!town from that though

Fwiw this was based on the assumption that there wasn't a 2 person team remaining.

[Jingle]

I'm firmly of the kill other scum camp. My philosophy is thus: in a normal game of mafia, mafia are functionally masons with a NK. In multiball, for the purposes of the other scumteam they ACTUALLY ARE masons with a NK. you should give exactly as much attention to killing the other scumteam as you do to killing vigs, because they really are vigs.

i dunno if this fully scans
this other scum team has substantially different incentives for use of their kill (and their votes) than actual masons with an NK
if that scumteam is focusing their efforts on teeing up mislynches and otherwise disrupting towns' attempts to solve the game, they're way less of a threat at least

Except that from their perspective you are a mislim. Sure, you don’t kill a mason vig if you think they’re going to hand you the game, and you certainly don’t kill a mason vig if there’s a higher priority target (a charismatic player who is focused specifically on you or your teammate) but the opposing scum is an inherently high priority target.

[Something_Smart]

Cross killing is part of the balance of the game. Scum factions in multiball should be just as interested in killing scum in the day as town and should be (until they are the strongest/only scum faction) more interested in shooting scum at night.

I agree that cross killing is part of the balance. This only proves my point further-- since it's very difficult for town to win without cross kills, our chances to win are highly dependent on things out of our control.

If you assume that x amount of cross kills happen, the correct play is still to try to eliminate scum during the day and honestly it felt like you werent trying to do that at all and if you had, just tried a LITTLE bit more, town could have won this game.

"Tried a little bit more" = "had literally perfect reads"? After N4 it was surely out of our hands. Even if we got scum on D4 it still is 6:4 on D5, and you'll notice that the triple town kill happened because we had people confirmed as town. I do think it would have been better to not use my ability, or lie about my result.

After N4, the dominant strategy is to not die and that means looking like I don't care.

And that's even assuming more effort produces a better result. A 2 person scumteam in a 24 player game is basically town in the amount of information they have. I don't really know what you think more effort would have accomplished.

And fyi, you can defend your design paradigm all you want, but you can't convince me that I had fun when I try to explain why I didn't. You did signal beforehand that you don't like predictable games, so I know it's on me for joining it, but I think my feedback is still valuable. Making sure the players have fun is the top (and arguably only) priority of the game mod, after all.

[Psyche]

I'm firmly of the kill other scum camp. My philosophy is thus: in a normal game of mafia, mafia are functionally masons with a NK. In multiball, for the purposes of the other scumteam they ACTUALLY ARE masons with a NK. you should give exactly as much attention to killing the other scumteam as you do to killing vigs, because they really are vigs.

i dunno if this fully scans
this other scum team has substantially different incentives for use of their kill (and their votes) than actual masons with an NK
if that scumteam is focusing their efforts on teeing up mislynches and otherwise disrupting towns' attempts to solve the game, they're way less of a threat at least

Except that from their perspective you are a mislim. Sure, you don’t kill a mason vig if you think they’re going to hand you the game, and you certainly don’t kill a mason vig if there’s a higher priority target (a charismatic player who is focused specifically on you or your teammate) but the opposing scum is an inherently high priority target.

ive been wanting to get into game simulation and maybe this is something ill explore early

[Thestatusquo]

Cross killing is part of the balance of the game. Scum factions in multiball should be just as interested in killing scum in the day as town and should be (until they are the strongest/only scum faction) more interested in shooting scum at night.

I agree that cross killing is part of the balance. This only proves my point further-- since it's very difficult for town to win without cross kills, our chances to win are highly dependent on things out of our control.

If you assume that x amount of cross kills happen, the correct play is still to try to eliminate scum during the day and honestly it felt like you werent trying to do that at all and if you had, just tried a LITTLE bit more, town could have won this game.

"Tried a little bit more" = "had literally perfect reads"? After N4 it was surely out of our hands. Even if we got scum on D4 it still is 6:4 on D5, and you'll notice that the triple town kill happened because we had people confirmed as town. I do think it would have been better to not use my ability, or lie about my result.

After N4, the dominant strategy is to not die and that means looking like I don't care.

And that's even assuming more effort produces a better result. A 2 person scumteam in a 24 player game is basically town in the amount of information they have. I don't really know what you think more effort would have accomplished.

And fyi, you can defend your design paradigm all you want, but you can't convince me that I had fun when I try to explain why I didn't. You did signal beforehand that you don't like predictable games, so I know it's on me for joining it, but I think my feedback is still valuable. Making sure the players have fun is the top (and arguably only) priority of the game mod, after all.

I disagree with the first part. But more to the point, I agree with the last part. Which is exactly why I have a rule that directly urges players to replace out if they're not having fun. Instead of replacing out you stayed in the game for like 3 days complaining about how you weren't enjoying yourself and werent going to try to play. I fail to see how this is on me as a mod at this point.

[Isis]

I don't think that's a fair answer. Players need to honor their commitments to games. I'll speak only as a site user here: if S_S repped out, it would degrade my experience far more than the style of play he chose to adopt (even if I didn't love it) because I would be unhappy about the decrease in game integrity. A fun game is sometimes irreducibly complex. The players' experiences are linked together.

(There is maybe an argument S_S should not have taken the slot)
(I edited this post but it's postgame etc)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I have some thoughts on this.

1) The town didn't really deserve to win. 1 correct elimination / 5 incorrect eliminations is just pretty bad scumhunting. Town deserved to lose.

2) There were definitely opportunities for the game to turn in a different direction. For example on Day 5 when it was Raya vs Isis. If the town had chosen correctly there, they would've discovered the third scum group and been in a much better position going into that night. I still don't understand why anyone thought Isis was more scummy than Raya.

3) It's difficult for town to win without any cross-kills, but have you considered what the probability of not a single cross-kill happening in a game with 3 scum factions and 9 scum is? It's pretty damn low imo.

Now obviously there will be more cross-kills if the town keeps missing because just by definition if there's more scum alive the odds of cross-killing goes up - however it's still in the interests of town players to

actually hunt

for scum.

4) Focussing on the odds of winning is silly. Arguably the town has a much higher winning percentage than any one scum team. If the odds were 40% town win, 20% rat win, 20% dog win, 20% cat win, each scum player would have roughly half the odds of winning as any town player. Does that mean the scum should just give up and not try? Should the town as a whole not try because they only have 40% ev?

Mafia is played for fun. Not for EV% imo so it just doesn't make sense to look at it from a purely I want to win perspective.

[Kazyan]

2) There were definitely opportunities for the game to turn in a different direction. For example on Day 5 when it was Raya vs Isis. If the town had chosen correctly there, they would've discovered the third scum group and been in a much better position going into that night. I still don't understand why anyone thought Isis was more scummy than Raya.

See, I wonder why Raya was even in the table, honestly. I figured that BHL would get voted off, because of the counterclaim.

[Chara]

honestly, i've been kicking myself for letting go of that Raya scumread early on. this game could have been very different.

[SirCakez]

Here for five seconds thanks for running this game I had fun Shea!

[Thestatusquo]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12879897

Wanted to bring attention to Titus' thread about gaslighting as a word in games of mafia here for anyone who has opinions on it. I encourage everyone to post and discuss.