Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[Greeting]

True, you "using logic" to "figure out the gamestate" (alongside the comments regaridng igors claim), and more importantly,

opening the door for others to do so

is a big part of it, but don't think for a second I'm going to allow you to reframe my case as being that exclusively.

I also disliked the reason given for the initial igor vote, which was...well, nothing. "I’m suspicious of igorsprite. They really don’t sound like a townie." and "ehhh. Check their posts and see for yourself." isn't a justification, and I have checked, and I don't see anything obvious that would have induced me to have voted there at that point.

I'm also trying to figure out what prompted 97, as well. It doesn't appear like anyone was actually concerned about a chaotic thought process, and it comes off as a little pre-emptive.

It's really flimsy though. Honestly.

Regarding igorsprite, I've already referred to this in 148, and I believe there's no need for any more explanation.

And there's nothing more to 97 than what was posted. Not sure how you're going to figure out whatever it is that you're figuring.

[Val89]

Why

did you post 97? What prompted you to say that?

[Greeting]

Why

did you post 97? What prompted you to say that?

An unusually quick change of mind I had. My idea for the game strategy at that time was to press your predecessor, but I quickly realised this wouldn't work because of their idleness, which I pointed out in 97. Thyhinth gave me some food for thought in 91. That encouraged me to look more deeply into igorsprite.

91 is also another townlean for Thyhinth in my eyes.

[Val89]

An unusually quick change of mind I had.

Fine. But that was already self-evident. Anyone looking at your previous posts could see you had changed your mind. Nobody asked you about it.

Why the need draw attention to your own 'chaotic thought processes'. Where you concerned if you didn't pass comment, it would come off as scummy?

[Greeting]

An unusually quick change of mind I had.

Fine. But that was already self-evident. Anyone looking at your previous posts could see you had changed your mind. Nobody asked you about it.

Why the need draw attention to your own 'chaotic thought processes'. Where you concerned if you didn't pass comment, it would come off as scummy?

Because my thought processes are chaotic. All my posts would have been chaotic, if I hadn't been pre-writing the longer ones in .docx or mass hitting preview before posting them.

[Val89]

While we are on the subject of Thynhith, I have a bit of additional context for that slot.

People have correctly deduced there was a bit of background tension between Thyn and the previous occupant of my slot. I was also in that game they played together, and won as scum.

Post 50 is interesting, because the justification that was given, that another slot had given a TMI read on the basis of exactly 3 posts, was precisely the same fake-justification, albeit more verbosely, I gave for scumreading his Mason partner. You may want to have a look at the exchange I had (link) on the issue, and in fact, Thyn's approach to that game more widely, because I am getting a very different vibe to his play this time around. That also applies to the "be careful not to hammer yet unless you mean to" concern at 82, another post Greeting describes as "very towny", which again, was an interaction scum!me had with Thyns slot in that game.

Thyn couldn't predict, of course, that I would end up replacing into this game, and it seems faily plausable to me that, having just lost a game to scum, he may well attempt to replicate that scum game he had seen work so well when he rolled scum himself. My read on greeting is stronger presently, but these are all reason I'm not townreading Thyn on the basis of those posts. In fact, given the vibe is markedly different to that last town!Thyn game, I am scumleaning that slot.

[implosion]

Game got quite interesting. Unordered collection of thoughts on the past couple pages:

-I think Val is actually quite town in this all. His concern about the setup spec stuff seems real and his willingness to immediately jump from me to Greeting after someone joined him on Greeting is a kind of high-risk-low-reward play as scum I think.

-I don't like MafMen immediately voting for Val. I think it's a relatively easy jump for scum to make there; it isn't necessarily from scum but I think if Val is town then he looks like a good jump there as scum.

-I feel no need to litigate what is and isn't setup speculation or anti-town in all those regards, as there's better stuff to talk about now anyway.

-Seven vanity votes is quite funny.

-This is a good sign for frogs being town (mostly the second half of the sentence but really all of it i guess)

-Greeting voting Val is perhaps the one thing so far that makes me suspicious of Greeting, not enough to outweigh everything else.

[implosion]

On the whole I think right now if any if igor, Val and Greeting are scum I'd be moderately surprised.

I think frogs calling Val/Greeting tvt is good because I'd been sort of irked from frogs for not giving any committal stances, but saying they're both "very town" is (1) something I agree with, (2) committal and (3) something I think scum is probably loath to do at that moment before the dust settles.

[implosion]

Val is super town because of how irked he clearly is over the setup speculation thing. He just won't let it go. I really think that indicates it's an actual thing that he actually feels about this game and not a front. This is evident in 165 (that post absolutely reeks town to me), and really every single one of his posts before it on the same page. He's also town like I mentioned because of the jump from me to Greeting; this would be a really odd jump for scum to make and the level of nuance in his opinion on my posting (143) is I think also townish.

[Greeting]

Something's quite not right here. Val89 suddenly went from outlandish theories, like in 132, 143 to suddenly being quite precise while boldly questioning me. Almost as if two different people are playing using that account. That, or this is some elaborate mafia scheme.

My instinct says vote out Val89 and I'm getting more confident in that vote.

[Greeting]

MafMen seems to be devoting their energy to fighting off Val's nonsense and they were the one who actually started the wagon. Whereas, in 165 it was made quite clear that MafMen is another player Val wants gone from the game. I did suspect MafMen before and now I'm with them on Val89's wagon too. Could MafMen and Val89 be paired and heavily distancing themselves from one another?

This

could

make sense, but I don't want to bias myself too hard into not seeing alternatives.

[implosion]

Greeting, I don't *agree* with Val's take on the setup discussion either but I don't think calling any of his posting "outlandish theories" is accurate. I think they're entirely plausible as a way someone could view a mafia game.

Consider that if one is playing as mafia in a mafia game, they have basically no incentive to post something that they think is actually outlandish. Scum want to appear reasonable. If Val is scum and posting these "outlandish theories" despite knowing that they're bologna, what is his motive? It seems like the only result is him getting attacked. Beyond that, igor agreed with him; do you think both he and igor are living in some alternate-dimension where logic works differently?

I think it's broadly true in mafia that if you find someone's line of reasoning entirely logically inconsistent, that's probably got little to do with alignment, it probably has more to do with you and that player having different ways of thinking logically.

[Val89]

Well, let's just shut this down right now, shall we.

It's not an outlandish theory at all. It has borne out in a previous game I played in (and lost!), and have no desire to repeat.

I am refering to Newbie 2073, which catboi also played in. There, someone fake-claimed Mason (in fact a TOWN made that fake claim, if you can beleive that), and just after I left the thread, 4 slots (including scum) managed to talk themselves out of the true PR pool by commenting on that claim and speculating on what it meant for the setup, even after I had warned them against it; and sure enough, one of our true PRs was quickly NKd from the remaining slots that night.

I have no desire to see that, or anything remotely like it, repeated.

[implosion]

I feel quite confident Val is town right now and though of course I could be wrong, I'd like you to take a step back and think about

why

Val would be playing this way if he's scum. What does he gain from doing it?

[Micc]

Errors made in Votecounts 1.04 and 1.05 have been fixed.

Votecount 1.06

Val89 (3) -

pseudoAristotle, MafMen, Greeting

Greeting (2) -

Val89, igorsprite

Thynhith (1) -

implosion

igorsprite (1) -

Thynhith

Mafmen (1) -

catboi

Not Voting (1) -

frogsfrogs

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate,

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2021-11-05 22:05:00).

[Val89]

@Micc: Greeting is also voting my slot, as of 169

[implosion]

I will be like,

quite

irked if we eliminate Val here. Moreso than if we eliminate Greeting. I am trying to figure out how to justify him being town to Val but I feel like it should be easier to convince Greeting that Val is town than the other way around/I think Val is the towniest slot right now after igor.

[Val89]

I am trying to figure out how to justify him being town to Val

Fair warning: Whilst he is sprouting stuff like "Val is either scum, or he is cheating", whilst accusing me of espousing 'outlandish theories' in the same breath, I think you'll have your work cut out on that one.

[Greeting]

Greeting, I don't *agree* with Val's take on the setup discussion either but I don't think calling any of his posting "outlandish theories" is accurate. I think they're entirely plausible as a way someone could view a mafia game.

Consider that if one is playing as mafia in a mafia game, they have basically no incentive to post something that they think is actually outlandish. Scum want to appear reasonable. If Val is scum and posting these "outlandish theories" despite knowing that they're bologna, what is his motive? It seems like the only result is him getting attacked. Beyond that, igor agreed with him; do you think both he and igor are living in some alternate-dimension where logic works differently?

I think it's broadly true in mafia that if you find someone's line of reasoning entirely logically inconsistent, that's probably got little to do with alignment, it probably has more to do with you and that player having different ways of thinking logically.

I feel quite confident Val is town right now and though of course I could be wrong, I'd like you to take a step back and think about

why

Val would be playing this way if he's scum. What does he gain from doing it?

My vote on Val in 169 may have looked as a spite vote, but actually I was thinking very long and hard about it and I came to the conclusion that this must be a ploy. As I had pointed out in 173, Val's theory of rejecting logic, which I strongly disagree with, has successfully hijacked this game and even managed to bring igorsprite on board. Quite frankly, I think that us refusing to consider possibilities and embracing secrecy is not just pointless, but leading to some kind of harmful frenzy.

[implosion]

I guess the one thing to say to Val is that if your initial reason to be suspicious of Greeting is the whole accidentally-giving-away-info thing... you yourself apparently witnessed like four townies do that in the other game you linked. Even admitting that it's anti-town, clearly you should agree that it's a trap town can easily fall into.

I think I actually want to stew more on how I feel about Greeting, looking at his posting more.

[implosion]

Val's theory of rejecting logic,

For someone who was accusing others of putting up straw men... this sure is one biased-as-heck way to phrase how he's been playing.

[Val89]

More so than the "He's either scum, or he is an unregistered hydra" false dichotomy?

[implosion]

He said that before I started directly appealing to him about you being town so I'm ignoring that one >.>

[Greeting]

Well, let's just shut this down right now, shall we.

It's not an outlandish theory at all. It has borne out in a previous game I played in (and lost!), and have no desire to repeat.

I am refering to Newbie 2073, which catboi also played in. There, someone fake-claimed Mason (in fact a TOWN made that fake claim, if you can beleive that), and just after I left the thread, 4 slots (including scum) managed to talk themselves out of the true PR pool by commenting on that claim and speculating on what it meant for the setup, even after I had warned them against it; and sure enough, one of our true PRs was quickly NKd from the remaining slots that night.

I have no desire to see that, or anything remotely like it, repeated.

Okay, so let's assume that igorsprite is lying. Regardless of their alignment or intentions.

We have 3 possible combinations in which we have an actual Tracker in the game and so, they will know about the lie.
There are no setups in which both Tracker and: Cop or Mason exist. There are 4 slots in total including any of these two roles. So, if there is a Cop or Mason in this game, they will know that a Tracker doesn't exist.

Which, in total, gives us 7 out of possible 9 combinations in which at least one town-aligned player is able to immediately tell that a Tracker claim is fake.

Only if we have a JK & FN or JK & VT combo, the JK or the FN will not be able to disprove the claim.

I think the odds are pretty good. Besides, if we do not have a Doctor, there's a big chance igorsprite is dying Night One.

[igorsprite]

why are you guys still talking about me ? .-.