Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Andante]

Cop should check me, I know my reads are right. so clear andante= I yell at yall to vote in my 3/4

Can we kill this?

Why?

[Enchant]

Cop should check me, I know my reads are right. so clear andante= I yell at yall to vote in my 3/4

Can we kill this?

Why?

1. You not supposed to know there's Cop.
2. Even if you are not mafia, you just praying for NK.

[Andante]

people were talking about a cop? there's no way maf gave us a 2 shot vig, and I think it's between cop/innocent child

I'm not saying I KNOW there's a cop, literally look at the posts immediately before tat. cop talk. Honestly, I don't care if I'm nk or not? I feel pretty good about my reads, and if I die, I hope they're listened to

[Bingle]

Someone tell me bullet points to be mindful of.

Game has been mostly stale with the same few scum/townreads being bounced around and little motion based on that.

PP/Dunn/Enchant/N_M/Ico may as well have not been playing for the majority of the game. Cakez disappeared for a long while but had a really solid start and is apparently back now. A50 stopped playing seriously after he convinced me to champion the Gamma wagon for him. Gamma has been alternating between odd boughts of hyper aggression over little things and complete limp noodle syndrome at the drop of a hat. SA has been around, but has been fairly low impact throughout. I'm scumreading the slot based on the low impact while still being around enough to try to impact things. He just really seems like he's content to let things happen rather than being involved.

Ico Slot

Early game Skitter thought ico was acting weird and pointed Dats at him, and then skitter and I kinda put a pin in that read waiting for dats to come to a conclusion. Ico proceeded to lurk out the thread before replacing. Dats did express a scumread there, but there wasn't a lot of time for pressure between that happening and the replace out. IIRC, basically the only thing Ico did was post a reads list where the bottom tier was {consensus scumreads+VP+Skitter/Pooky} and got called out for having a scumpool that was largely pushing itself (by SA, I think?). He claimed there were no associatives involved, and then Gamma jumped on that wagon immediately after for having a scumpool that was largely pushing itself. Dats later posted a "Why Ico is scum." blurb. I responded with the following, which I will link instead as it contains a bit of extra reasoning from Dats along with my takes.

bingle, have you gone over my ico case yet and what is your opinion on that slot at this point in time

I hadn't, but I'm doing so now.

Spoiler: Recent Dats posts about D'Argon slot, spoilered for size

things that have pinged me wrong about iconeum the dragon:

- the "i have zero scumpings so far" in 61. it's not unreasonable to not have scumpings, but something about purposefully calling it out made it seem a bit forced - like he thinks town!him *would* be having scumpings by that point so he wants to cover his ass there.

- i think i already talked about it, but the "why are you worried about not having a read on me yet" (93, 509). like, it reminded me of scum!ico who sometimes has the habit of pre-emptively building a push on me, but the issue is if he builds it too early.

- shading vp in 513 but then voting dunn in 519 is kinda ???. now, i don't think it's scummy in of itself, but further through his iso, i'm not sure i get the vibe of him actually trying to sort through dunn/vp.

- also, the way he seemed very certain on dunn being a solid yeet for today just feels... agh, icky. i'm not sure if i'm making things up here, but something about being read to *yeet* dunn already feels kind of off, at least based on the way he presented it.

- this is maybe more within tinfoil territory, but 909 and 928 feel kind of contradictory to one another. specifically the parts where he first says that he's been liking my posts, and then there's the 1v1 we'd been having, and then that i should know i haven't done enough for him to townread me. but, i thnk the "i've been liking your posts" implies that there is material for him to townread me, except that material is "tainted" by the 1v1. to then turn it into "you haven't done enough" feels ???, like he realized he has to defend the weird null read on me so he's turning it into that. and the "if you're honest with yourself, you should know" just feels manipulative. :/

61: The point seems a little tinfoily. Seems to me that if Ico thought he should have scumpings and wanted to head that off he'd, you know, make some up.

93/509: I can see this. Given the assumption of Ico is scared of towntisi, this actually seems like a pretty solid point to push on. Not a lockscum case, but a pretty sheepable one.

Where is Ico showing he's very certain on Dunn? I more got the impression he was disengaged and didn't have strong reads from his posting.

Overall, I think most of this case is adequately explained by Ico just not being around, but the angle of Ico coming after you too early out of fear is one I should look at.

i don't know why, but darby's 1188 and 1190 give me a scummy vibe, in a sorta cognitive load way? what i mean is, the answers to those questions seem relatively easy to figure out if you read the post that skitter is literally quoting there. and the fact that he's *still* asking for clarification there strikes me as if he didn't quite get it because way too many other things are on his mind (i.e. he be informed)

someone let me know if i am getting too biased here, but those two just pinged me as Wrong

I think you're over complicating things with that read. He's straight up asking why skits is shading a townread on him, I don't think you need to examine cognitive load to see why that might have a scum motivation.

ok ok ok baltar now that you are here i need your professional opinion on something

so i saw this post:

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on [datisi] now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

this post struck me as kinda townie. maybe i'm wrong on that beign townie bc trying to placate your pushers is a thing sometimes but this tone and timing just seemed *too* placate-y it circled around into town

however, this post:

But shouldn’t that be a d2+ thing? This logic seems weird.

seemed to be hedgy shady bullshit and i don't like it

discuss

I think Darby tr-ing you shows that you're not S/S more than that he individually is town. The latter post seems to be genuine confusion given the context of page 57

Overall, I'm not really impressed by the case. It seems like a lot of what you're concerned about would be a result of Ico just not being in the game as much as Ico being scum in the game.

Gamma

Gamma overall has been pretty lackluster this game. The first bit of importance came when she blew up at VP for trying to pressure her into voting Dunn. She spent ~20 pages voting VP as a, and these are her sentiments, middle finger to tell him to fuck off on trying to control her. A50 posted a "Gamma is scumclaiming" thing and later shared the reasoning at Gamma's insistence:

Btw, I'm dead serious about Gamma here. Not gonna say why in details, but he knows as well as I that this is a scumtell of his.

As fir your scumtell; you told me that -and I loosely paraphrase from memory- Scum!you tries to pick on minor and irrelevant subjects to debate about, thus appear like you're doing something. Your jump on Baltar'a phrasing sound EXACTLY like what you were talking about. Your overreaction to it; trying to make it look like a focal point of the game is so much exaggerated it does indeed look like you making something "big" out of nothing.

I won't debate about this anymore. You told me how to potentially catch Scum!You and I'm only following your advice.

Note: Gamma implicitly agreed that this is a scumtell for her, but disagreed that pushing VP was an overreaction and insisted that VP was being crazy scummy by telling her to vote Dunn if she didn't want him to eliminate her.

Later, she walked that back.

After that post, I expressed my confident townread in A50, although it was only upgraded to locktown just now, and A50 dipped the thread. He's been trolling and making me do all the work to push the wagon ever since.

Gamma had a wagon build here, dismantling the Dunn wagon in the process. PP switched, Skitterdra voted there, and Gamma made a post about how fighting the wagon was a waste of time, spewing herself as not a PR. SA sheeped because of said post. Skitter changed her mind. Dunn and I questioned SA on why gamma, which was originally explained as "She seems like she doesn't think she can contribute to the game" but has since evolved to she was null and he didn't like the Dunn wagon. I have spent the entire game since that point trying to rebuild said wagon and having no success until just recently. Skitter and Gamma had a back and forth which I think made Gamma look really bad but was apparently super controversial reads wise.

As far as I know, the case on Dunn is that he was actively not doing anything, even when pressured.

The most valuable ISOs are probably Skitters/Mine/Dats' in that order, but those are probably also the meatiest. Vp would be a good starting place if you want to get your feet wet without having to basically read the entire thread.

[Almost50]

people were talking about a cop? there's no way maf gave us a 2 shot vig, and I think it's between cop/innocent child

Re-read setup (although I'm not the best person to say this at this point). We get THREE TPRs out of 5. "No way Scum give us 2-shot Vig" coupled with "between Cop/IC" means they gave us JK, Tracker & one of Cop/IC?? I don't think so.

[Bingle]

@A50

Setup design notes: independent of plist: Functionally all of those are ICs in an open, so IC is pretty much a given. JK, similarly, is disproportionately more power than the others so is a VERY unlikely inclusion. Cop favors a short game and tracker favors a long game, while vig is just high swing. I think the existence of a vig is slightly clearing for lurker slots, but not strongly so. If there is a vig, a stronger than average scum team implies cop while a weaker than average scum team implies tracker. D2 begins with a cop hypoclaim regardless of whether there’s a cop in the setup unless the cop has already flipped. (Not claimed, flipped)

I'll be gone the rest of the day, btw. I'm doing TGiving a day early with the family and I need to start cooking. Have fun and don't start any fires without me.

[Gamma Emerald]

I just read the scum PT from mini 2246 and I’m pretty happy datisi ID’d I was his traitor pretty effectively

Does scum Gamma talk about reading a past scum pt?

Why wouldn’t I KEKW

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: D'Arby

Gamma sounds like he has accepted his fate as today's lim despite the fact we still have time and there is a counterwagon. I am still not fully convinced he is Town, but it could be that D'Arby is also Scum with a stronger role which explains why Gamma prefers his own lim over D'Arby's. Either that or Gamma is Town and believed his "issue" was worth pushing.

Anyway, this makes the wagons even @4 votes each, and I guess this gives us even more info once both slots have flipped.

You all have 48 hours to decide which of the two goes through.

P.S. I may change my mind later, as I believe I need to ISO both Iconeum and D'Arby at this point, but I'm not in the right mindset to concentrate enough at interactions and motivations behind every post, so will do it later today (I hope)

Read the setup again bestie

[Gamma Emerald]

Yall, I don't think A50 should be the center of your SRs at the moment, I truly believe darby/gamma/VP/dun is a 3/4

Can you pls attempt more complex thought than you currently are
I think on base value you’re at best 2/4 there
I know I’m town and think VP is town

[Gamma Emerald]

Cop should check me, I know my reads are right. so clear andante= I yell at yall to vote in my 3/4

Can we kill this?

Maybe
I’m seriously questioning my TR on PP because this just doesn’t feel like a realistic way to come into a game

[Gamma Emerald]

Andante I want you to do a serious deep dive of why you’re seeing the associations you are

[Fun and Games]

Heya all new peeps

- i like andante so far
- toog's meh, wanna hear more abt why he dislikes us
- slight townpings on dwlee but not a strong read yet
- i feel really, really, really good about bingle town now (and thus a50 town)
- i'm not really sure what to do with gamma's self-vote or if its ai, we might go back to gamma

Now sure how around i'll be rhis weekend

~ skitter

[Datisi]

why is dats sus for you rn

~ skitter

was this ever answered? i'm not sure it was ever answered

[Gamma Emerald]

- i like andante so far

I don’t
Also why is Toog “meh”? Do you just not want to townread him, because you know he’s frequently LHF early?

[Datisi]

Gamma and you would be my main indicator. I'd imagine Gamma would push back, and F&G would push back to that. They will either bring up the relevant pieces of the meta to this game and agree on some form of facts (to which I could make a conclusion then) and/or you as an informed third party would correct any wrong statements. It's not fool proof but I don't like doing extra work when it can be avoided.

i am almost tempted to townread this because the "lol my vote is dumb, idk if the statement was wrong someone would've said something, i ain't reading shit" is often how my brain works as town. now i know this is not necessarily ai and is more playstyle-indicative but i semi-often get shit for it so part of my brain is going "yes mindmeld" even though i know it's a mindmeld on a nai thing

maaaybe one could argue that scum doesn't do the "lol idk i'll just switch voted with no explanation" but i just got burned by making "scum doesn't post something this bad" arguments so i won't do that

[Datisi]

Gamma and you would be my main indicator. I'd imagine Gamma would push back, and F&G would push back to that. They will either bring up the relevant pieces of the meta to this game and agree on some form of facts (to which I could make a conclusion then) and/or you as an informed third party would correct any wrong statements. It's not fool proof but I don't like doing extra work when it can be avoided.

i am almost tempted to townread this because the "lol my vote is dumb, idk if the statement was wrong someone would've said something, i ain't reading shit" is often how my brain works as town. now i know this is not necessarily ai and is more playstyle-indicative but i semi-often get shit for it so part of my brain is going "yes mindmeld" even though i know it's a mindmeld on a nai thing

maaaybe one could argue that scum doesn't do the "lol idk i'll just switch voted with no explanation" but i just got burned by making "scum doesn't post something this bad" arguments so i won't do that

[Datisi]

I have an exam tonight

how did this go i hope it went well

[Datisi]

Spoiler:

For examples, I like the tone in these posts for town

cuz reading his catchup it reminded me of that time ico/me were scum together in kids with lungs and the dude would basically lurk and then "catchup" in "bursts" where he would post like 20 times in a row and not actually interact with the thread in any way.

yeah please metadive and tell us what you find

i'm not gonna explain my personal life ITT

i have a tinfoil theory that involves Fun and Games, Datisi and myself… i'm probably getting heat for this but i don't really care lol

Fun and Games' scumread on me feels really weak. They are pushing Datisi as associative with me because they know i'm yeetbait and the *one* thing standing in their way for easy achievement of that is Datisi townreading me

So this could literally be scum!Fun and Games (damn that name, i tried abreviating that) pushing town!tisi into some sort of corner with regards to my slot, trying to 1) make sure there's no town!tisi defending me and 2) stopping potential town cohesion from forming

Datisi's case on VP, I think Dats is genuinely believing what he's seeing here...
town!tisi? oh man if my gut on Fun and Games is right i'm gonna be so happy i don't think i've ever caught scum!skit, let alone scum!pooky

ok, now that i have more than 3 brain cells working at the same time

this is like. uh. why the hell are you townreading any of those posts lol

i'm again getting reminded that ico magically wanted to yeet dunn (like straight up said he wants to fucken yeet dunn) while obviously not solving much, *and* also having a decent amount of interaction with skitt and calling the slot shady but... he want yeet dunn? who barely here? wwwhat??

also 882 is reminding me of a time where scum!ico was like "shit i got into a slapfight with datisi early and he didn't like it... wow what a good case is datisi town?" but this is maybe my own bias at this point

[Datisi]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gamma

how come this vote switch happens now?

I'm full of whimsy

this is a very funny response but how am i supposed to copy your reads now

[Dwlee99]

I have an exam tonight

how did this go i hope it went well

I think well! That or I consistently did one thing incorrect. We'll see lol

I'll try to get actually activated tonight once I'm just vibing

[Datisi]

i once heard a friend of mine say "if someone's posts are making my eyes glaze over and i can't read them, that person is probably scum"

and that is the exact vibe i get from 1827

it's like, what is the point of this? it's titled as "deduction", but most of it feels like just... recounting events that happened in the thread? i see there's *some* original thoughts there, but this whole post just screams "look at me i am doing things".

oh wait, i skipped over 1822. that makes it a *bit* better because at least it wasn't uncalled for. it still has the lamist vibe. anyone got meta on darby to know if he's usually like that?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gamma

how come this vote switch happens now?

I'm full of whimsy

this is a very funny response but how am i supposed to copy your reads now

I was sort of wanting to see what people's reactions would be if I changed it up with no explanation. Gamma's giving up/not really giving up makes me feel like it was a good choice.

Bingle is also my strongest townread at this point + we do get probably the most info about player interactions from a Gamma flip. Lots of plusses to just following through with this path at this point.

[Datisi]

aghhh I don't tr darby though, so that means someone in darby/gamma/VP/dunn is town, but honestly, I'm leaning heavily towards this being a 3/4, I know I literally just got here, but it doesn't take long to skim ISOs of top wagons and go from there

the fuck am i reading

[Datisi]

like, i've seen confident reads before

but my god, a confident 4-person poe less than half an hour after repping in?

[Datisi]

literally every single post from andante makes me feel like i'm reading a mafia playing bot that got its "chaotic" setting cranked up to 11