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[MathBlade]

Datisi is still scum btw

[Datisi]

datisi: *writes a case on why frogster and andresvmb are town in order to stop them from shittunneling each other*

math: eFfOrT iS nAi

one, nobody asked. two, the case wasn't written to get me townread, it was written to stop town tunnelling town. three, everyone except you townreads me, i don't need your approval.

[Datisi]

when you have three exams in the next three days but someone on the internet is wrong:

on the subject of town!frogsterking:

first, things that independently make me think that frogster is town.

410 struck me as townie re-evaluation of baltar, the person they were sure is scum. look at how he talks about baltar in the posts prior (300, 329, 333, 338, 342, 362,

especially

399 which is their last post before 410). scum is generally very unlikely to be doing these sort of "jumps" in reasoning and trajectory because they'll be trying for consistency. town doesn't care about consistency, town cares about getting their shit out and solving the game.

and we see it again, in 418. not only is frogs jumping from one read to another, which is something that scum generally doesn't do or finds difficult to fake, he's also outing takes that... i don't think scum outs. the ideas present in this post, that baltar is toxic or that house is scum setting up a baltar/house/frogster yelo... scum doesn't come up with shit like that. see the explanation in 557. reads like these require creativity, that is generally not present in scum. we also see similar jumps shortly after frogs posts the survey and starts townreading rtp because of their response to it.

then we have the effort posts. stuff like 592, 1012, 1063. i think you will very rarely find scum that puts this much

effort

into cases, especially on day 1 and especially when it's not immediately needed. then posts like 785 and 719, they show that frogs is looking into meta of people, but it's not in-your-face "look at me i'm solving" meta case that it often looks like when scum does it, it's more quiet and mentioned in passing. then, we have 1729, which is a callback to day one's survey results - it shows that frogs is actually using the results and it wasn't just for show.

then, lap>frogs interactions.

admittedly there isn't much, because the dude has only like 16 posts, but. (1) i still believe that 182 is good reasoning to townread frogs, because laplacian is

scared

of frogster scumreading him, that's why he added the "if he posts the survey" nonsense. then, notice who laplacian townreads. house (174), rtp (175), frogster & datisi (458). flipped town, cleared town, andres's hard townread, and frogster. notice a pattern?

(also, sidenote, i just noticed the one and only scumread laplacian had was innocentvillager in 203, haha. anyway.)

finally, frogs>lap interactions.

now, you could argue that 592 is a bus. and frankly, i *could* see it as a bus. however, i think some events happened that simply do not happen if frogster and laplacian are both scum. first, laplacian actually bites back on frogster. the "oh this case is garbage ahaha" bullshit in 777. if those two are partners, the idea is to make frogs look good upon the flip. so frogs would probably help lapla make a countercase. it didn't get posted because scum didn't want to *further* spew frogster town upon lapla's scumflip. (this could maybe go n the above section, but fuck it whatever you get the point.)

furthermore, i don't think any scum ever in frogster's position posts 901, or 924, or 945, or the insanity of the scumcase on iv that was 1012. at the time, lapla's wagon has a lot of supporters. some of those are loud supporters, like me and rtp. lapla is nowhere to be seen and i don't think it takes a scum mastermind to realize he's probably going down. and, if frogs is scum, the moment 592 was posted, it was sealed that lapla is going to end up bussed. now, here's the thing. imagine you're frogsterking. you're bussing your poor teammate into the fucking ground. there's a huge wagon on him. do you:

a) keep screaming that he's scum, he flips red, you're looking town as fuck, and you push misyeets the rest of the game, OR
b) make a huge fucking scumcase on a townie that has next to NO VOTES on them

because if you do b). best case scenario is that that misyeet goes through on d1, poor lapla falls on d2, and you're left looking like shit. while, if you do a), and then push that same misyeet on d2, you're still looking decently well after the fact.

here's another thing, scum isn't stupid. scum knows how things like these look. they wouldn't fucking dare to post something like 1012 in that gamestate, because they're very much aware it can come back to bite them in the ass later. and they never count on having someone like me in town who's gonna be writing this case, they can't. so frogster is either one of the ballsiest motherfuckers i've seen, or he's town.

on the subject of town!andresvmb:

this one is a bit more... shakier, but still. the first thing is that andres tonally vibes to me like he always does as town. now, there is a note here that i've never seen andres as scum so i cannot exactly say how tonally similar the two are, but it's a point in his favour.

then, posts like 593 and 601. i don't think scum!andres posts this. at that point, rtp is already voting laplacian. why does he put himself in this position where he is forced to vote his ow partner? not only that, he is PRAISING rtp's d1 reads. why??? but, for the sake of argument, let's say that he has to do that, because if he doesn't, rtp will realize andres isn't being his usual self and will kill him. okay. the reason why andres doesn't strike me as a busser here is because andres never said *anything* about laplacian. his whole reason for voting lap was because rtp is voting there and so that he can sort rtp with that. i think scum in his position would be very likely to, if they're forced to bus, to make up bullshit on why they actually definitely think lap is scum. because this way, they are helpng the wagon along, but once people look back at his play, they're gonna think how andres didn't actually *push* the wagon, which automatically makes his vote weigh much much less.

the other option for scum!andres would be to vote the wagon, not help it along, and look for an opening away from that wagon and to vote someone else. he didn't do this. i really think scum that's bussing is going to be doing either of those things - either maximising the clout they get from the flip, or looking for another opening to attack elsewhere. frogster did both, and at the times it made no sense, andres did neither. i just. i just don't think there's scum in these two. because like, if andres has lowkey given up on the game, why even help the wagon on his buddy along in the first place? if he's helping it along, why not give it more reasoning than "idk lol i wanna sort rtp"? it makes no sense

---

this is probably gonna be the most of my effort for the next 2 and a half days, because, uh. will be a bit busy. i'll definitely still be around and paying attention, but yeah.

reposting for next page

[Datisi]

also note how math doesn't say what about the case is wrong or scummy, math doesn't consider the motivations behind writing it, math just instantly screams how i am Still Scum because he knows he has to kill me

[MathBlade]

I did say what was wrong succinctly.

You’re saying that frogster is town because “ then we have the effort posts. stuff like 592, 1012, 1063. i think you will very rarely find scum that puts this much effort into cases, especially on day 1”

I said effort is NAI

I just didn’t take 1000 characters.

You did a lot of hot air that means nothing.

[MathBlade]

I find that cases like this are when people are desperate.

Town should not be desperate

[Datisi]

You’re saying that frogster is town because “ then we have the effort posts. stuff like 592, 1012, 1063. i think you will very rarely find scum that puts this much effort into cases, especially on day 1”

i said a lot of other reasons why frogster is town, but sure, pick out the one line which you can "debunk" (except not really, because frogster is not you and people are on average more efforty as town than as scum)

[Datisi]

I find that cases like this are when people are desperate.

Town should not be desperate

god forbid i want to stop two people that i townread from tunnelling each other

[MathBlade]

You’re saying that frogster is town because “ then we have the effort posts. stuff like 592, 1012, 1063. i think you will very rarely find scum that puts this much effort into cases, especially on day 1”

i said a lot of other reasons why frogster is town, but sure, pick out the one line which you can "debunk" (except not really, because frogster is not you and people are on average more efforty as town than as scum)

Correct. You said a lot of things. It’s a performance. LAMIST.

And yes, you should but it should have been done more like House did with me and Ari if you’re town.

You’re wanting to collect town points vs being town

[Datisi]

collect town points

FROM WHO

everyone townreads me except for you

and frankly i do not care about your read on me because you're scum

[MathBlade]

collect town points

FROM WHO

everyone townreads me except for you

and frankly i do not care about your read on me because you're scum

That is incorrect.
VP scumread you
I scumread you

I if scum never kill you.

Saying you’re not scumread is a joke or this game is more fucked than ever

[Frogsterking]

Thank you for the effort posting Datisi, I will weigh the pros and cons of the andres!town case against the stuff I posted.

I was taught a long time ago in livechat mafia that weak votes are another sign of bussing in addition to the signs you mentioned, so I'm a little skeptical of that aspect. I'm open to rethinking that though and I definitely don't claim to be an expert on this topic, especially on forum mafia.

At the moment I'm interpreting Math v Dats to be TvT but I think Dats has an edge case based on what S_S said about setup review.

Math you and Ari both said you're a strong scum player, can you link to any games and/or explain how the way you've gone about playing the game here is any different than you would go about it as scum? Assuming you are scum and there was a miscommunication between you and VP, or you guessed what he was referring to and you got fake cleared on D2?

[Frogsterking]

collect town points

FROM WHO

everyone townreads me except for you

and frankly i do not care about your read on me because you're scum

That is incorrect.
VP scumread you
I scumread you

I if scum never kill you.

Saying you’re not scumread is a joke or this game is more fucked than ever

I don't think VP scumread Dats I think VP was pushing Dats to see if Dats might slip because VP respected Dats scum game.

[Datisi]

"here's frogs jumping with his reads in a way i don't think scum does, here's frogs noticing things that i don't think scum does, here's frogs making effort-cases in a way i don't think scum does, here's frogs diverting from the scum!wagon at the time and in the way i don't think scum does, here's flipped scum interacting with frogs in a non-partnery way"

"wow lamist because you didn't try to make them up in a way i want you to!!"

[Datisi]

VP scumread you
I scumread you

vp is dead and i don't give a shit about his town points right now
you're scum and i don't care about your read on me

people who are town townread me (except s_s who i think has a perpetual null on me but he's voting iv so it's ok)

[Something_Smart]

Town should not be desperate

uh, why not? I feel pretty desperate.

[Something_Smart]

VP scumread you

then he wouldn't try to die without leaving a clear crumb?

[Datisi]

I was taught a long time ago in livechat mafia that weak votes are another sign of bussing in addition to the signs you mentioned, so I'm a little skeptical of that aspect. I'm open to rethinking that though and I definitely don't claim to be an expert on this topic, especially on forum mafia.

At the moment I'm interpreting Math v Dats to be TvT but I think Dats has an edge case based on what S_S said about setup review.

chat mafia yes, forum mafia no - andres would've had enoguh time to either decide to not post the asskissing posts towards rtp that locked him into voting lap, or he would've made up good reasons why he himself definitely wants to vote lap, OR he would've tried to open a push elsewhere

math isn't town, i know it's going to be a hard sell because everyone's gonna be like "but the clear!!" but the thing is, math has absolutely nothing going for him other than the clear, a50's play was atrocious, math's logic on me is circular and horrible, and he's trying to get townies to fight (attacking on the skitter and lap wagons, iv was on neither)

[Frogsterking]

@Math

Math you and Ari both said you're a strong scum player, can you link to any games and/or explain how the way you've gone about playing the game here is any different than you would go about it as scum? Assuming you are scum and there was a miscommunication between you and VP, or you guessed what he was referring to and you got fake cleared on D2?

I'm asking because of the edge case based on what S_S revealed about the setup review and because of skitter's dying request.

[Something_Smart]

unless you were trying to refute 2209, which of course makes no sense because Datisi can't collect town points from VP.

[MathBlade]

Thank you for the effort posting Datisi, I will weigh the pros and cons of the andres!town case against the stuff I posted.

I was taught a long time ago in livechat mafia that weak votes are another sign of bussing in addition to the signs you mentioned, so I'm a little skeptical of that aspect. I'm open to rethinking that though and I definitely don't claim to be an expert on this topic, especially on forum mafia.

At the moment I'm interpreting Math v Dats to be TvT but I think Dats has an edge case based on what S_S said about setup review.

Math you and Ari both said you're a strong scum player, can you link to any games and/or explain how the way you've gone about playing the game here is any different than you would go about it as scum? Assuming you are scum and there was a miscommunication between you and VP, or you guessed what he was referring to and you got fake cleared on D2?

To answer some of your question goes against site rules. I was thinking he’s referring to something that you strictly cannot talk about. So hence the not and say we did.

And no I cannot. As scum I work off who my buddies are and what’s most advantageous. If I was scum with a lurker I already I believe linked the game where I become everyone’s friend.
If I am scum with a bad scum I teach them scum
If I am scum with a good scum we vibe.

That’s the best I can do keeping in site rules sorry.

[MathBlade]

VP scumread you

then he wouldn't try to die without leaving a clear crumb?

He did
I linked it
And even if you disagree there was the quick hammer

[Something_Smart]

math isn't town, i know it's going to be a hard sell because everyone's gonna be like "but the clear!!" but the thing is, math has absolutely nothing going for him other than the clear

so how did A50 know there was a vig

[MathBlade]

Town should not be desperate

uh, why not? I feel pretty desperate.

Then look at what is making you

[Something_Smart]

He did

I meant

clear

, like his first crumb. Not "mentioned the person's name".

If the day end caught him off guard, he would want to target a townread, so that he probably wouldn't die without a clear crumb.