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[innocentvillager]

I guess it does.

I guess I was hoping for you to look at the game from a “I know Ari is scum” perspective and kinda just spew thoughts.

Is that not what I have been doing for the most part, e.g 5483?

Some more thoughts off my head: Last night I was glazing over the Datisi/Aristeia interactions and felt in my gut that it wasn't really super theatrey/showy. I still feel somewhat similarly right now but I don't know if it's unfakeable anymore; they could just be really good at putting on the sort of subtle distancing to set up Datisi for tomorrow or they're actually just actively choosing to communicate OOG things in thread rather than in the PT because "that's what they'd do if they were unaligned". The question in my mind now is "is Aris trying to pocket Datisi or is she just interacting with him normally in thread for the sake of it" whereas yesterday it was more like "is Aris trying to pocket Datisi or is she trying to distance with him". And I don't even think that a town!Datisi world necessitates that she's overtly trying to pocket Datisi because he might be watching for that kind of behavior. At the very least it looks like ingratiating behavior but I just don't know to what extent their baseline interaction would be for me to know it's on the level of explicit pocketing.

Now I am starting to wish I had been more engaged from the beginning, sigh. Little too late maybe...

Nah actually idk if mafia is really for me anymore idk I'm kind of just not really into just feeling like crap and apologizing for throwing for town whenever I get on. (it's late and I'm just tiredposting)

Somewhat gross to say from a scum who lurker all the way to elo.

This is not a geniune thought - it's a fake emotional appeal.

Well it is a real thought as we both know, you wanna explain why town!me doesn't say this or did you just want to blanket shade me again? Part of the reason I had low wim for this was because I felt like I needed to apologize for my activity or whatever whenever I came on and maybe I kind of was just avoiding that negative energy. Like I said I don't want to keep playing like this in the future, regardless of my alignment.

And fmpov your AtE towards MathBlade was really gross knowing that you're scum now.

Datisi has been uncharacteristically passive towards me this game and his stance going from "town by mechclear from SS" to "yeah IV probscum" is kind of ?? but admittedly there might be more context there I'm missing so I'm willing to wait for him to explain.

i don't think i've been more "passive" at you than in other games - if i'm aware that it takes me a while to read someone right, i'm likely to not expel energy for that early. as for the stance change, what is there to explain? s_s is better at mechanics that i am, he said all of you/math/him have to be town, he was conftown by virtue of being a vig, i had to let it go. but *now*, when you being town would mean there must be some sort of blocking bullshit in play, and s_s isn't alive to help out, it's not so simple anymore.

because like, the only thing you had going for you was your claim and the fact s_s was defending you. but now, mech situation has changed, and also *you have not died*. there is a very simple answer for "why is the claimed power role continuously not dying?" that i'm sure all of koba, baltar, and andres know very well. and in my experience, if you are expecting one nightkill going into yelo, and a different nightkill happens, something is *very* wrong with your worldview, because scum very rarely actually goes for the wifom game. and i was expecting you to die.

Okay, this makes a lot of sense, thanks. Yeah I think we all expected us to die. I will say like I think most people think scum don't make the wifom kill these days, so Ari + 1 might be exploiting that meta to push me here from NKA. Ari is clearly a very capable scum player so I wouldn't be surprised if she was capable of a play like this.

@innocentvillager

And oh I see. Yeah that was in reference to that game. I probably thought you were a candidate for scum at that point in time as the PoE narrowed in that game but I only loosely followed along

what were you thinking about me in this game as compared to me in schadd's game?

i want an answer to this. i know you said you forgot or whatever but retrace your steps and think back to what you were thinking.

Did I say I forgot? I honestly just wasn't really trying to read you much this game. My thought on you was "Datisi is doing normal Datisi things" here. I thought there was a strong chance I got your alignment wrong in schadd game earlier in this game so I think reading you was going to be a headache so I didn't really try. Oh lmao as I'm typing this out I did think you were a lot more active in this game than schadd game at the time, but that really just made me think you were scum coasting in the schadd game rather than giving me any opinion about this game.

Hmm, I guess I can sort of see how the nightkill might point to me? But this also seems like easy wifom. I think you saw me as defeated and thought I would be an easy misexe to the end with this kill, which I guess you might be right about because I just don't have much time this week. And House is very unpredictable as we all know so who knows if he would've followed up on pushing me. Especially if I have to claim "no result" and they know that somehow, it just looks even worse for me

If I know you are town gunsmith, then I know house is bullshitting about being confirmed, hence I would leave him alive and shoot mathblade.

today then house is then not confirmed and a easy misyeet or I get him to keep pushing you and you are an easy misyeet.

In no scenario do I actually shoot house.

There is also a second element in this that has to do with this - everyone thinks House is my "partner" so even if House doesn't help me yeet you and somehow changes his mind - me flipping scum just dooms house!town on day 6 and we still win.

It is completely nonsensical for scum me to kill house because it messes with my win condition both today and tomorrow.

I mean I think on the surface the reasons for you wanting to kill House aren't obvious and that's why you get to just argue wifom angle and put serious doubt into everyone's mind about today. You just need 1 townie to vote me to win, and I don't think you were really expecting resistance from me at all.

To address your points more specifically: how do you know House is bullshitting about being confirmed given you know I'm town? Is the setup necessarily unbalanced if me, Math, and House are all PRs and town? I'm not sure why that would have to be the case at all.

Also House as an easy misyeet is a stretch, I thought he was fairly townie by play earlier in the game before he did the whole fakeclaim to save you. I mean even that is just so ballsy for him and would be out of line with his meta (I believe). I think it's fairly reasonable that you expected the misyeet on me to be easier than the misyeet on a super unpredictable like House, who *might* cause serious problems espefcially if there's any chance his new claim is legit.

The second element you're talking about is plausible and deeper I guess but given that you just brought it up maybe you just thought of that new wifom reason and didn't consider it heavily during the night. And it goes back to the assumption that House is easily yeetable, moreso that me, which again I just don't think is obvious at all.

I've seen all sorts of scum saying things like "I would NEVER kill X, how can you think it points to me" for what seem like plausible reasons, but all sorts of BS can happen. Maybe Andres or Datisi were really adamant about another kill, maybe there are other reasons I can't think of. In my experience it happens a LOT, and it's happening now.

[innocentvillager]

Skimming some recent Andres posts my gut reaction here is that Andres is trying to pocket me/distancing with Aristeia by defending me. I think an easy 1st order thing to do as 2 scums in ELO is to seem as unaligned as possible in stances - case in point Micro 1035 Chain of Command where I was scum with Dwlee. Skitter bought the idea that me/Dwlee just seemed way too out of sync/unaligned in thread and couldn't buy us as a team. And I think it's just a natural instinct for scum in general. There's also just very little cost to this play when at the end of the day, the only that matters for scum!Andres is if Datisi or Math just instavote me.

Andres has also had this like, middling level of activity that has even dropped off as the game has gotten deeper. I've loosely followed along with town!Andres in late a couple times (Newbie 2023, Mini 2169 that Datisi modded) and usually he's a dominant voice at this stage in the game. Maybe he's like me where he's decent about emulating his town tone when scum, but when it comes down to the wire he just can't fake the same amount of solving that town!him does; that's doubly true if he's very rusty as scum having basically never rolled it here (I think).

[Aristeia]

And fmpov your AtE towards MathBlade was really gross knowing that you're scum now.

its kind of cute you only remembered to feel outraged about my ate after i said your ate is gross for a scum who lurked his way to the end off bad mechspec.

[Aristeia]

To address your points more specifically: how do you know House is bullshitting about being confirmed given you know I'm town? Is the setup necessarily unbalanced if me, Math, and House are all PRs and town? I'm not sure why that would have to be the case at all.

yes

you and house can't both be tprs.

if im scum and i know you are a tpr - i know by extension that house is not a tpr.

that's why any scum team without you in it would not kill house - his claim would be obviously fake to anyone who thinks you are actually a gunsmith.

[catboi]

Prodding Andresvmb.

[Aristeia]

So you have never seen townies take a backseat to a game because of RL/desire to play less?

I have seen townies take a backseat

I have not seen

you

take a backseat at mylo - you are very opinionated and loud as town.

you have stated you are a very polarized player with a different scum/town meta - being fake cleared and watching mathblade death tunneling me made you completetly uninterested in the game and you decided to do nothing because you felt no need to rock the boat.

[Aristeia]

I TR'd House and just went along with his roleswap because I felt like it and wanted to see where it went, it felt weird to not go along with it idk. I didn't think it was that likely I would die given how little of a threat I was to any scumteam at that point.

A real investigative tpr doesnt decide to play nightkill roulette by pretending to be a mason.

House did it as a VT because he wanted to draw the NK; it is silly for you to do it as a gunsmith.

[MathBlade]

Is it bad I just want Andres (or Andres 2.0) to vote first?

Or that I am seriously considering IV + Ari?

Like I have to go look at a house today so gonna be afk but it’s more likely Ari+Datisi v IV + Andres but I kinda wanna see if I am right.

[Aristeia]

I also disliked when you quoted frogster's case during the previous day as evidence in your favor without any sort of desire to look at it. I think that aligns with an approach where you were trying to sway Math that I was scum yesterday instead of actually trying to figure out if I was scum (trying to win a debate rather than discuss an issue genuinely), and I don't feel like you were actually that "confident" in me being scum at that point to completely disregard how absolutely insane that case was.

you were already voting for me at mylo. theres nothing for me to figure out atp if you are town, then scum just quickhammer me and the game is over.

[Aristeia]

I've talked about this already and you are out here repeating the same thing. Idk if you actually addressed it or not but I think you "conveniently" did not. But I'll say it again: I didn't think my existence in the game mattered anymore, I was not interested in playing this game or trying mostly for that reason. I did not have you as confirmed scum yesterday and you trying to push that is weird because if I'm actually scum here faking everything I would be more aware that you are mechnically confscum to me (per your logic, which again I'll say was not true for me because of very possible hesistancy to quickhammer)

you aren't interested in optimal investigation because you are mafia;

This thing where you say "maybe datisi/andres didnt take the easy quickhammer on ari!town" is kind of nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry I should have said I’m VLA until tomorrow - I’m attending a concert today, and was out drinking last night.

To be totally honest, I think Datisi needs to be more obvious about what they want to do because they’ve been dragging their feet too much. Like I think everyone knows how I’m leaning and this is only dragging so you guys can figure out exactly what you want to do. So yeah, figure it out. I don’t know what else I need to say. Arguments around the NK are not convincing because they’re strategized - the Scum chooses what to do based on the information they have about what will get them closer to victory and they don’t have to make immediate sense to the Town. Constantly yapping about how you wouldn’t do an NK is just white noise to me. I’ve already made clear that I never shoot House because I knew their claim was bullshit but I’m still being thrown around as part of a solution by practically everyone so clearly that doesn’t matter to others, yet I’m supposed to take those arguments seriously. It’s irritating. And now IV thinks I’m more likely than not Scum here. So then my voice doesn’t matter and this game always ends with my execution. So why does anyone even care about my opinion? I’ve been in games where my opinion just gets constantly discarded even when I’m spot on so, I don’t intend to push my POV too hard. Sorry. If you have a specific question about my gameplay, by all means. But at this stage, I’m pretty sure I’m landing on Aristeia, and Datisi just needs to step up and actually vocalize what they’re going to do.

[MathBlade]

Sorry I should have said I’m VLA until tomorrow - I’m attending a concert today, and was out drinking last night.

To be totally honest, I think Datisi needs to be more obvious about what they want to do because they’ve been dragging their feet too much. Like I think everyone knows how I’m leaning and this is only dragging so you guys can figure out exactly what you want to do. So yeah, figure it out. I don’t know what else I need to say. Arguments around the NK are not convincing because they’re strategized - the Scum chooses what to do based on the information they have about what will get them closer to victory and they don’t have to make immediate sense to the Town. Constantly yapping about how you wouldn’t do an NK is just white noise to me. I’ve already made clear that I never shoot House because I knew their claim was bullshit but I’m still being thrown around as part of a solution by practically everyone so clearly that doesn’t matter to others, yet I’m supposed to take those arguments seriously. It’s irritating. And now IV thinks I’m more likely than not Scum here. So then my voice doesn’t matter and this game always ends with my execution. So why does anyone even care about my opinion? I’ve been in games where my opinion just gets constantly discarded even when I’m spot on so, I don’t intend to push my POV too hard. Sorry. If you have a specific question about my gameplay, by all means. But at this stage, I’m pretty sure I’m landing on Aristeia, and Datisi just needs to step up and actually vocalize what they’re going to do.

Why would your opinion get instantly discarded when I have spent the last few IRL days asking for it?

[MathBlade]

Like Datisi is pretty sure of IV scum
And Andres is pretty sure of Ari scum

Neither of you scumread me so then sounds like y’all should be cross voting.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve got so little patience for the style of play that almost makes people feel guilty if they vote for you. Like it’s so manipulative and bad, I can’t stand it.

[Andresvmb]

Dude I’ve given you my opinion. Stop making it sound like I’ve been totally absent and you have no idea where I stand or how I look at things. I don’t find it particularly appealing to repeat myself 100,000 times, arguing the same over and over.

[Andresvmb]

Now I am starting to wish I had been more engaged from the beginning, sigh. Little too late maybe...

Nah actually idk if mafia is really for me anymore idk I'm kind of just not really into just feeling like crap and apologizing for throwing for town whenever I get on. (it's late and I'm just tiredposting)

Somewhat gross to say from a scum who lurker all the way to elo.

This is not a geniune thought - it's a fake emotional appeal.

Like this sort of nonsense is so aggravating already. Enough. The absolute master of emotional appeal this game has got to be Aristeia, and yet they have the nerve of calling out others for “fake emotional appeal”. Dude.

[MathBlade]

Then put your vote behind it.

If you think Ari is scum vote her.

Then I post again and clear

Datisi votes IV and then boom it’s a 2v2

[Andresvmb]

Then put your vote behind it.

If you think Ari is scum vote her.

Then I post again and clear

Datisi votes IV and then boom it’s a 2v2

I want Datisi to act. I was ready yesterday dude. Datisi keeps dragging their feet. You need to applying this pressure there.

[Andresvmb]

^be applying*

[MathBlade]

Then put your vote behind it.

If you think Ari is scum vote her.

Then I post again and clear

Datisi votes IV and then boom it’s a 2v2

I want Datisi to act. I was ready yesterday dude. Datisi keeps dragging their feet. You need to applying this pressure there.

You need to vote before them.

You + Ari is also a possible world.

I want to see you act before Datisi if at all possible.

You are scum in more worlds than him.

[MathBlade]

The only world that is a loss if you act first is IV + Dat and you vote Ari
Or Ari + Dat and you vote IV

IV + Dat I don’t feel is probable
And I don’t see you suddenly voting IV.

So please vote

[Aristeia]

So then my voice doesn’t matter and this game always ends with my execution. So why does anyone even care about my opinion?

If you are town, you should vote for IV because I am also town

If you are worried that I will vote for you tommorrow over Datisi; let me make that mistake if it comes to that.

Make the right choice yourself.

[Aristeia]

I’ve got so little patience for the style of play that almost makes people feel guilty if they vote for you. Like it’s so manipulative and bad, I can’t stand it.

I am sorry if you feel that way about my play.

I won't hold it against you if you vote for me here; I have lost many games and I am perfectly fine with losing another one.

[Datisi]

I want Datisi to act.

is there a reason why you're suddenly so... i dunno, annoyed about me being slow in yelo? (and like, i get people usually are annoyed at me for it, hear me out.) if you're already settled on who you're going to vote, and hell you were settled yesterday, why do you want me to vote first? and like, i already said what my current plans are, and they are voting iv. so i don't get posts like 5510 where you want me to "be more obvious" because like i said where i am leaning? i've seen people be annoyed at me, but this feels like some weird nervousness, and i'm not sure i like it

[Aristeia]

Dats, isn't Andres kind of confscum to you unless you think either me/IV is s/s or mb is s?