Mini Normal 2268 Game Over

[Roden]

I'm 100% confident Roden doesn't "swoop in" to defend me like that as scum, there wouldn't be a need to

actually why tho

because I'm town and at E-1, what on earth does scum Roden gain from pushing so hard against the wagon that he attracts attention/votes instead? I'm useful to keep around scum should want me gone

I get that it will look different to someone who doesn't know my alignment but I give exactly 0% chance Roden had any scum agenda to what he posted. The better question is why do you think it's a scum-indicative action?

I think it's scum indicative

how

he went about defending you. It felt like he had too much skin in the game there. The only feasible explanation I could see for town!Roden to have felt that way would be if he had a tangible townread on you before the E-1.

This is more of what I'm talking about. You've either learned nothing from Open 835, or you're just scum. And I really hope it isn't the former, because at this point you scum read me for catching scum and if I'm ever correct then I'm bussing, you scum read me for having accurate town reads and if I'mever correct then I'm informed, you don't think it's possible for me to accurately town read amd defend a townie at E-1...

Like, just fucking say you think my town game is garbage already. If you think I can only ever have correct reads as scum then there's no point in ever trying to engage with you.

[NorwegianboyEE]

[2] GuiltyLion: Not Known 15, humaneatingmonkey
[2] Meuh: marcistar, GuiltyLion
[2] Roden: DkKoba, Gamma Emerald
[2] ChaosOmega: tictac, Meuh
[2] Gamma Emerald: ChaosOmega, Roden

[2] Not voting: Dwlee99, ShadowGirl

With 12 players alive, 7 votes are needed for an elimination.

D1: deadline: (expired on 2022-03-29 21:32:48)

[Roden]

Also I'm not really feeling the votes on Meuh right now. Is it possible they're scum defending townies for town cred? Sure. But I don't think that should be the first assumption, and even more I really don't think they should be today's priority.

Also also, NK15 is giving me "yelling into the void" vibes, I feel like no one's paying much attention to them despite their bold claims. Game state makes me think they're town for it though.

[DkKoba]

Also I'm not really feeling the votes on Meuh right now. Is it possible they're scum defending townies for town cred? Sure. But I don't think that should be the first assumption, and even more I really don't think they should be today's priority.

Also also, NK15 is giving me "yelling into the void" vibes, I feel like no one's paying much attention to them despite their bold claims. Game state makes me think they're town for it though.

So why do you townread GL?

[Gamma Emerald]

Koba, Gamma: Why did you move off GL and hopped on a Roden wagon? Yes, I know that you SR both.

I’m actually less convinced GL is scum than Roden is. Both of them have given me vibes of past scumgames tho, and I think that’s a weirdly solid sign for me specifically

[DkKoba]

i echo what gamma said

[DkKoba]

specifically i feel roden may have TMI'd GL as town and didnt actually reach their GL read genuinely, as in it was worked backwards and they are trying to pocket the loudest voice in the room. I also potentially think Roden might PR read GL and that they are thinking a step ahead in terms of pocketing there too - as I had built a similar world myself.

[Gamma Emerald]

Koba stop falling for Roden’s tricks
This is the same lame defensive maneuver we had to keep Nancy Drew from overdoing in Townstumps

Literally what tricks?? Koba is going after

me

. I town read them, they're just way off course with everything they're saying.

You’re making things about past games rather than the present game
Your read on Koba has literally zero to do with it but nice attempt at a misdirect

that's a gamma-trick not a roden-trick
i got a flashback of u saying i have 'antics'

The antics thing was FFXIV right
also, wdym that’s a me-trick, are you still talking about focusing on past games? If yes, I’ll admit you have a point but I do it as BOTH alignments.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm 100% confident Roden doesn't "swoop in" to defend me like that as scum, there wouldn't be a need to

actually why tho

because I'm town and at E-1, what on earth does scum Roden gain from pushing so hard against the wagon that he attracts attention/votes instead? I'm useful to keep around scum should want me gone

I get that it will look different to someone who doesn't know my alignment but I give exactly 0% chance Roden had any scum agenda to what he posted. The better question is why do you think it's a scum-indicative action?

I think it's scum indicative

how

he went about defending you. It felt like he had too much skin in the game there. The only feasible explanation I could see for town!Roden to have felt that way would be if he had a tangible townread on you before the E-1.

This is more of what I'm talking about. You've either learned nothing from Open 835, or you're just scum. And I really hope it isn't the former, because at this point you scum read me for catching scum and if I'm ever correct then I'm bussing, you scum read me for having accurate town reads and if I'mever correct then I'm informed, you don't think it's possible for me to accurately town read amd defend a townie at E-1...

Like, just fucking say you think my town game is garbage already. If you think I can only ever have correct reads as scum then there's no point in ever trying to engage with you.

I don’t feel like this is like open 835, is the thing! That game it felt like I could actually talk to you. This game, and in past games where you’ve been scum, you’ve had a hostile aura.

[ShadowGirl]

My thoughts below after a full reread (up to page 25 - I know there have been posts since I was writing still up which are not addressed here, as this post is already overly long.), which will be grouped by player. All of the things I wrote were done chronologically rather than sorted all at the end, so if my thoughts do change over time of players or things, that is the reason why. But I wanted to give my full thoughts as I reread page by page.

tictac

Spoiler:

@monkee: dunno why u think scumlion wants to avoid a fight w u. u both easier yeet and more valuable miseet from his pow then dwee. lion refusing to 1v1 u is town indic.

Wouldn’t scum be less likely to want to get into argument, as they more likely to draw votes rather than with a de-escalation?

VOTE: chaos
@dk feel free to use like arguments if u got something against this

Why the vote on Chaos rather Gamma who made it E-1?

marcistar

Spoiler:

VOTE: Meuh

Why Meuh vote with no explanation at all in this post? Sub note: 3 votes on DwLee at this time.

I've played with Meuh quite a bit since we're friends, I often send her game links and ask her to sign up with me!! In all of those games, she's been town and I think she usually just ... has alot more to say than she already has at this point. I feel like shes usually out there very townily towning it up and being sort of like a townblock creator. So I think its weird she hasn't done much yet, i'm not sure if shes scum but I wanna see whats up yknow? !!

Perhaps a personal preference, but don't love this vote based solely on past play. Sub note: Votes were 3-3 on GL and DwLee at this time.

it feels like ur a bit too hard against this tbh

Just noting wanting to keep the possibility in discussion of a scum in either of the neighbourhoods. Wondering why you're not voting DwLee or defending them since part of the reasoning against them is shadiness re: the neigbhourhood talk?

ChaosOmega

Spoiler:

VOTE: GuiltyLion E-2

I also scumread NK15, the tone in their posting feels fabricated almost to the point like I'm reading a robot. The hyperfocus on the 1 scum/1 traitor thing is silly. It feels really unlikely that GL and NK15 are partnered given NK15's shift onto the wagon, so I think I'm wrong on at least one of my top reads here.

E-2 vote on GL while scumreading NK15 who hasn’t posted in many pages. Would it not make sense to withhold vote and get more info from people (particularly inactive) before an elimination? Also, if NK15 is your scumread, then you should field some question his way as well? Also gives an easy out if GL flips town and to move onto NK15 D2 that what you're sure of is that you have at least one read wrong.

Meuh

Spoiler:

VOTE: chaos
Better spot for my vote than still randomly on tictac

Why the vote on Chaos, again, because Gamma was E-1?

GuiltyLion

Spoiler:

I do think it's very likely there's a scum in at least one of the hoods so I'm down with either Dwlee or NK15 wagons atm though I would like NK15 to actually engage with me so I can better suss out the degree to which he believes what he's pushing

I don't love making it an assumption that there's scum in the neighbourhood as that can create an easy vote, which if said person flips town, is an easy out because it's a vote based on mechanics. Not saying this is not a possibility, but I don't think it should be the top reason for a vote.

I'm not voting you cause a) Dwlee is a bigger wagon and b) I kinda want to see what they make of everything when they get back before deciding if I want to defuse any pressure there.

Given the other wagon is 3 votes against GL, makes sense to stick to bigger wagon to avoid getting voted around than to make it 2-2-2, which would still be sufficient pressure on DwLee.

why would scum!me even claim to scumread you and call out that your reasons for townreading me were kinda fake-sounding and bad, if these were my goals? Like, the pocket-y and de-escalating thing I could have done would have been to simply townread you and amplify your voice against my other detractors. But instead I pick a fight with one of the only people asking people to explain why they suspect me? and you think that's a

de-escalation

tactic?

Do agree easy town thing would be to not question scum-read. The reverse psychology play of pocketing seems less likely, particular given many pages of arguing back and forth. Definitely seems like a way to create someone who will forever tunnel you. But still ? at why not voting him vs DwLee.

I've also been thinking about this and I'm willing to sheep it and this wagon
VOTE: Meuh

Could be seen as pivoting to Meuh off of marci’s vote (which is due to past game gut play) as DwLee wagon fizzling. Which the past read vote play sheeping just seems like very lukewarm reasoning, again, compared to voting HEM.

The reason I'm not voting HEM is a) because I hate that he tried to manipulate/goad me into voting him and I refuse to allow him to bully my vote that way on principle, and b) because even though I find HEM vaguely scummy, I also don't believe I'm super likely to be correct there. I absolutely do start with easier to pressure/sort players on D1, I believe people who tunnel themselves on the hard-to-read high-activity slots are often wildly wrong in doing so and it's best to use D1 lim on lurky slots that don't have any real remote reason to townread them. I explained this in more detail in my last game I played and I stand by it here as well, it's far easier to imagine me just personality clashing/not liking HEM and being wrong than it is to find good quality reasons to townread a low activity slot that isn't yet even playing. Especially in Meuh's case as the town game marci linked did seem wildly different to her first posts in this game.

This seems like contradictory thinking? That you wish to push people who are prone to tunnelling for seemingly no reason, rather than mounting pressure on those who are inactive and prodding them with questions? And as scum seems like easy pickings to target tunnel-vision prone people as they'll basically dig their own grave?

DkKoba:

Spoiler:

atm i'm leaning dwlee/NK15 both being scum.

If these were your top scumreads, why have your vote on HEM rather than either of them? Particularly since you find DwLee particularly suspicious due to neighbourhood interactions. Not wanting to push DwLee to 4 votes (if scumbuddy)?

ill humor this VOTE: GL

Note on timing: Voted GL over DwLee while votes at 3-3.

VOTE: GL
Aight

Why revote on GL which still puts it at E-1 rather than gather more info from inactive players? Still don’t love the baiting for a quick hammer which if a trigger happy townie does it, makes an easy D2 vote out.

In the world where the scum in question has to endgame and ur facing someone who can read scum you with scary accuracy and the last scum is either traitor or a weak scum player

Overwhelmingly the majority of traitor references are from you - just wondering what makes you adamant on that there is a traitor?

Dwlee99

I just would love some more content from you since aside from the defensiveness which as I have no personal experience with you, so I don't know how to read that, so I'd love an overview of your current reads on players.

Gamma Emerald

Spoiler:

as in my reads?
you, marci, koba, and nk15 are TRs for me rn
dwlee and GL are suspects

Curious as to the scumreads as these are two people who were voting against each other – would love an elaboration.

VOTE: guiltylion E-1
This game is dead af, let’s at least make something happen soon

Do not like this at all for this shallow reasoning.

Maybe
Something about the way Roden came in against the GL wagon feels rather sus
Actually, I think I have a good idea of what alarm bells are being rung here

If you think Roden is scumbuddy to GL, why switch votes from GL to Roden? Wouldn't either of them being voted be fine if they're both scum? Unless I am misunderstanding the term S/S?

Not Known 15

Spoiler:

VOTE: Guilty Lion

Vote but zero explanation? Just curious at that time what made you vote this way.

Yes. Partnered with Roden and Testarossa(alternatively Marci). Koba and Gamma switched to Roden and dwlee unvoted after there was strong resistance to a GL lim.

Trying to understand what are your reads are for the people who switched/unvoted off the person that you think is scum? I am trying to interpret if you thought this was suspicious or (?).

Roden

Spoiler:

Anyway that was gonna be my reason for voting HEM because I caught up already and that looked like scum trying to appease someone who was scum reading them.

VOTE: HEM

What do you think about HEM's reaction to DkKoba vs GL scumreading them (appeasement vs argument)?

Wtf is this garbage wagon? Is there any particular reason you guys want to vote out the only person keeping the game alive? Like do none of you see that the further this wagon builds the more quiet this game gets? Game state alone shows that this is a wagon on town and that scum are just waiting for town to hammer for an easy Day 1.

Considering it a townie read for opposing GL wagon and not voting for easy elimination, or else super long game scum tactic to not be on this wagon if GL flip town.

humaneatingmonkey

Spoiler:

UNVOTE:

can you tell us about dwlee in your hood?

Unvoting Dkkoba when GammaEmerald gives townread on them – before they have answered what happened in hood topic ?

Gamma what are you doing? you're doing nothing.

But you just agreed and unvoted based on what they said on page 8 of read of Dkkoba and unvoted possibly due to that(?) – also DwLee had not posted in awhile, so why not call them out too?

yes. i even think Dwlee is town.

Why not calling out DwLee on inactivity - and townreading them, which is based only on read of past game - even though you did so to Gamma who had posted before you had said they were doing?

[Roden]

Also I'm not really feeling the votes on Meuh right now. Is it possible they're scum defending townies for town cred? Sure. But I don't think that should be the first assumption, and even more I really don't think they should be today's priority.

Also also, NK15 is giving me "yelling into the void" vibes, I feel like no one's paying much attention to them despite their bold claims. Game state makes me think they're town for it though.

So why do you townread GL?

Wtf is this garbage wagon? Is there any particular reason you guys want to vote out the only person keeping the game alive? Like do none of you see that the further this wagon builds the more quiet this game gets? Game state alone shows that this is a wagon on town and that scum are just waiting for town to hammer for an easy Day 1.

@HEM:

Why did you get so aggressive and angry with GL when they essentially made the same read on you as I did? You ignored my read and vote and instead mauled GL for it even though they explained the read in much more detail than I had.

why are you suddenly hard defending them?

Because GL is obvtown and the game state wouldn't be this dead if town caught scum

Because I made the exact same read as GL and wasn't even questioned about it

Because I've been lurky this game and no one, not even the people getting run up, are pointing it out

[tictac]

The antics thing was FFXIV right
also, wdym that’s a me-trick, are you still talking about focusing on past games? If yes, I’ll admit you have a point but I do it as BOTH alignments.

yea, and yea.
and okay. u didn't used to do it so much, so i remember it from recent ones.
still a weird angle 4 u to be pushing someone else from.

[Roden]

specifically i feel roden may have TMI'd GL as town and didnt actually reach their GL read genuinely, as in it was worked backwards and they are trying to pocket the loudest voice in the room. I also potentially think Roden might PR read GL and that they are thinking a step ahead in terms of pocketing there too - as I had built a similar world myself.

...What? Didn't you say I was scum hard defending my scum buddy? Now I'm scum hard pocketing a town PR? So no matter what, I'm just scum and can't just have accurate town reads.

This new theory doesn't even make sense. If I'm scum, why do I save someone I suspect to be a PR instead of just...killing them? Hello??

[tictac]

Can't say I adore this intro, feels a bit opportunistic
placing a non-random vote on someone being openly scumread by others for a brand new reason without initially engaging with the argument that brought the spotlight on them in the first place?

kinda like the 2 absent slots coming liive and both honing on the one slot that's under pressure and having their own reasons.
granted, chaos fits this bill more blatantly than u do. thought about waiting to see if u became more clear on the issue, but that's gonna last forever.
not sure if it's opportunistic really. i'd more call it coincidental, as in "i don't think this is what naturally happens when new people read through a game and form opinions about it"

@ shadowgirl

[Gamma Emerald]

Just bcuz I do something as both alignments doesn’t make it so everyone else does.
Also, my style of referencing other games is different to what I said Roden was doing. My method is more of a “this thing happened in xyz game and makes me think yadayada”, it’s not a direct response to pressure, and instead is a pattern-recognition situation #justNDthings
@tictac

[Roden]

I'm 100% confident Roden doesn't "swoop in" to defend me like that as scum, there wouldn't be a need to

actually why tho

because I'm town and at E-1, what on earth does scum Roden gain from pushing so hard against the wagon that he attracts attention/votes instead? I'm useful to keep around scum should want me gone

I get that it will look different to someone who doesn't know my alignment but I give exactly 0% chance Roden had any scum agenda to what he posted. The better question is why do you think it's a scum-indicative action?

I think it's scum indicative

how

he went about defending you. It felt like he had too much skin in the game there. The only feasible explanation I could see for town!Roden to have felt that way would be if he had a tangible townread on you before the E-1.

This is more of what I'm talking about. You've either learned nothing from Open 835, or you're just scum. And I really hope it isn't the former, because at this point you scum read me for catching scum and if I'm ever correct then I'm bussing, you scum read me for having accurate town reads and if I'mever correct then I'm informed, you don't think it's possible for me to accurately town read amd defend a townie at E-1...

Like, just fucking say you think my town game is garbage already. If you think I can only ever have correct reads as scum then there's no point in ever trying to engage with you.

I don’t feel like this is like open 835, is the thing! That game it felt like I could actually talk to you. This game, and in past games where you’ve been scum, you’ve had a hostile aura.

This is blatantly untrue, what the fuck.

I rlly feel like this is not an argument where both parties are acting in good faith
I am not pre-judging that i's roden acting in bad faith tho

Can you explain?

Also do you plan to respond to my earlier posts? Are you just going to park your vote on me or are you going to play?

idk if I can put a pin on it rn but something definitely doesn't feel right about y'alls interactions
and idc to respond unless I get something to change the feeling that you're just gonna take what I say and spin it to make me look bad, because I sensed that as your motive in ln 235 and I feel like that's your motive here

yeah nah I'm fine to sit where I'm at and refuse to elaborate further

I'll give content if someone I care to engage with asks for it

Like you're actively refusing to talk to me here.

Also your "hostile aura/anger" meta was even disproven in this game??

How did you even come to this conclusion that "anger = scum" when it's always been the complete opposite?

Because I feel like there’s a pattern in games where you’re scum of “I push Roden on something > he freaks out about it > he flips scum” so it might just be your base reaction and I’m having a positive feedback loop

So are you town that learned nothing and actively choosing to make the same mistakes, or are you scum trying to massage Koba's ego so you can get what you want?

[ShadowGirl]

@tictac, can you give me your thoughts on Gamma, please, and his vote and then subsequent reasoning for making it E-1? I believe that you are saying that you think Chaos is more scummy because Gamma was more active up until then?

[Dwlee99]

I haven't read a /lot/ outside of what Koba has kind of pointed out in the hood but there is some stuff I got

I had a thought that HEM's read on me going from null -> town without me posting was really weird and koba kinda just blew me off

They're saying other kinda ridiculous stuff but not beneficial to out probably? Gamma's E-1 vote wasn't good. Mala in bears with guns did the E-1 on someone to goad math to hammer and it's pretty similar. I guess there isn't a similar person that was goaded to hammer, but GL's point that you only really leave someone at E-1 like that hoping that someone hammers are right.

About Koba possibly pocketing me in the hood - Not really? If Koba wanted to pocket me they'd probably approach me differently in the hood. I've butted heads with them every game recently and this isn't an exception so :shrug:

I'm gonna go find the HEM posts cause Koba ignored me based on townlocking HEM

[ShadowGirl]

kinda like the 2 absent slots coming liive and both honing on the one slot that's under pressure and having their own reasons.
granted, chaos fits this bill more blatantly than u do. thought about waiting to see if u became more clear on the issue, but that's gonna last forever.
not sure if it's opportunistic really. i'd more call it coincidental, as in "i don't think this is what naturally happens when new people read through a game and form opinions about it"

What do you think about that you have a scumread on Meuh as your 2nd top scum read(?) but that you are both voting for Chaos? Do you then think Meuh is bussing them? Or what is your opinion on Meuh currently?

[Dwlee99]

dwlee isnt town yet

I think scum!Koba would keep prodding there, while town!Koba would see that continuing to prod could potentially be anti town and back off.

Somebody mentioned earlier that Dwlee is good about self-image stuff as town and I agree there. Dwlee's town and scum play isn't quite night and day, but I feel that they could've easily handled it better if they were scum.

it was me who said it. i agree with this. i think Dwlee and Koba can both be in my townblock.

[Dwlee99]

I made no posts between these two. Koba just made a joke about not listening to other people at all when I asked them to consider they could be wrong :^)

[tictac]

@shadowgirl
no. i'm saying that the phenomenon of "new people read through the game and end up believing what the loud voices already believe, but for different reasons" strikes me as unlikely to actually occur naturally, and thus chaos is scummy.
i'm delaying judgement on gamma. he's a good player, so i'm somewhat reluctant to do a day1 yeet on him.

[Roden]

Roden

Spoiler:

Anyway that was gonna be my reason for voting HEM because I caught up already and that looked like scum trying to appease someone who was scum reading them.

VOTE: HEM

What do you think about HEM's reaction to DkKoba vs GL scumreading them (appeasement vs argument)?

I think HEM is playing around Koba the same way I would if I were scum. Facing them head on doesn't work, but they're really easy to manipulate and play around. It's why I think Gamma is also scum because they're doing to the exact same thing.

HEM's reaction to GL felt heavily manufactured. I've already made this point two other times, but GL and I made similar arguments against HEM, yet GL was the one who took all the heat. Even now, I'm getting accused of not scum hunting, but no matter how many times I bring it up my scum hunting just seems to get ignored.

[Dwlee99]

Roden

Spoiler:

Anyway that was gonna be my reason for voting HEM because I caught up already and that looked like scum trying to appease someone who was scum reading them.

VOTE: HEM

What do you think about HEM's reaction to DkKoba vs GL scumreading them (appeasement vs argument)?

I think HEM is playing around Koba the same way I would if I were scum. Facing them head on doesn't work, but they're really easy to manipulate and play around. It's why I think Gamma is also scum because they're doing to the exact same thing.

HEM's reaction to GL felt heavily manufactured. I've already made this point two other times, but GL and I made similar arguments against HEM, yet GL was the one who took all the heat. Even now, I'm getting accused of not scum hunting, but no matter how many times I bring it up my scum hunting just seems to get ignored.

VOTE: HEM

[ShadowGirl]

I made no posts between these two. Koba just made a joke about not listening to other people at all when I asked them to consider they could be wrong :^)

Do you mind giving me your current reads of the players (town/scum/null)?

@tictac: Do you mind giving me your thoughts on my other post to you, re: Meuh?