Micro 1052: Lake Melancholy [END]

[Prism]

Can lead a horse to water...

[skitter30]

Ok yeah ari's gonna shout at me but i dont think this is a scum tilt
Or more accurately: i dont think the present discussion around the tilt folds out this way if prism is scum

[Aristeia]

prism: i tilt strategically as scum to pocket specific people who will townread my tilt.
skitter: i think prism's tilt is not scum tilt


i can't even

[Aristeia]

Can lead a horse to water...

its like are you trolling her atp to get me to townread her?

what is this game

[Prism]

Yes, it's all for skitter, the player who was already townreading me and thought nothing of the mech to begin with.

[skitter30]

Ok but:
- i would argue her play this game is *not* congruenf with trying to pocket me
- if she is scum tilting, why is she being so open about that strategy and how she utilizes it exactly ...

[Prism]

Do you have anyone who you actually want to vote today or are you just going to sit and rile me up all game?

P-Edit: I am very open with my scum meta/hypotheticals, and am very fine burning plans for little payout because I just think of alternatives.

[Dwlee99]

Can lead a horse to water...

I could come up with a way it could help you as scum if I wanted. That goes for anytime anyone tilts. Doesn't mean it's what's happening or that your suggestion is actually a good way to get your alignment out of your tilt

[Dwlee99]

Even a hypothetical tilt that doesn't have any plausible reasons to be a scum motivated tilt could be "this tilt doesn't have a scum motivation, so people will read it as townie" so yea I'm never going to townread you off of your tilt

[Prism]

Deep.

[Dwlee99]

Deep.

[VP Baltar]

I am again fine getting flipped. We can give me an attempt when I feel up to it but I am not actively having fun, am not widely townread, and will always have the mechanical specter over me.

I don't think you're under any serious threat of getting limmed? I don't even know if any one outside datisi and ari seem willing to vote you? Why so fatalistic?

[VP Baltar]

Also, I won't exactly be VLA tomorrow, but I have a lot of shit I need to get done, so probably won't be able to EFFORT toward this game like I have today. Hopefully Sunday is a little more forgiving

[Prism]

Several players in this game have not explicitly weighed in and I am more vulnerable than you think IMO. A lot of it is an "I want out" fantasy yielding reverse justification.

I am harsh on bad townreads on me, but nothing tilts me like horrible reasoning for pushes. At the end of the day if I wanted Aristeia to townread me as scum she would, mechanics or no mechanics.

[skitter30]

Is my townread on u bad?

[Prism]

Nope. You've gotten feedback and questions when it has been

[Prism]

Reread a bit of skitter. My feelings were essentially the same. I strongly disagree that she would explicitly egg-on a TvT. Many players stay out of them even without her skill, but Aristeia and I are both stubborn people that do not tend to stop when we get started. I will feel bad if she has me as town for the right reasons and gets voted out anyway. I don't think it's a dangerous townread of her to give, though, and I think helping shove my vote through would be the more dangerous choice.

I don't see a reason to move right now.

This time around the "not as sure of town-Ari" evolution kind of caught my eye. Ari's timing with taking shots at me has been questionable but at some point last night I realized she was almost certainly town. I don't think she makes those posts to Baltar last night knowing how legitimately miserable I was. Maybe I'm wrong, but I am willing to call it. I think she makes those only if she strongly feels she's right and this is a replay of the fake-tilt in the Mini Normal. The only doubtful point to me is that she's not forcing me through and sits in this middling Twilight Zone, vaguely hoping I vote scum but too fearful at any tangible chances that come through, and probably hoping that a partner would make a mistake. I don't think she expects me to.

[Prism]

Datisi, I'd like you to elaborate more on what questions/protrayals of mine are in bad faith and seem to be presuming a scum alignment for you.

I've always known you don't like pushes on you. My concern is that seeing strong stances when there were none, and a vague veneer of malice where there is none, is perhaps reflective of fear more than run of the mill defensiveness.

[Prism]

Projects tomorrow are the 4 players I've mostly ignored, but primarily fireisredsir and Cephir. Dwlee/Enchant I am less confident in my ability to read regardless of how much I stare at their posts. Right now I have my single post dart throws.

[Aristeia]

I recognize that if I push you too hard and you are town it is unlikely you will be able to catch any scum and the game state will move in a direction that is harder for us to read/win so I'm mostly just letting the day play out and seeing if you can actually produce something that will make me go "yea that's town prism!"

It's just hard to get there right now.

I do recognize that I am sometimes wrong when I feel absolutely convinced of something being right because being absolutely right and absolutely wrong often feel like the same thing to me.

I am sorry if I am making you miserable.

[fireisredsir]

hi im kinda here and after reading some im kinda feeling disinclined towards the prospect of another game where loud strongposting town eat each other alive and scum just sit and watch

[fireisredsir]

to be more clear, i am concerned that the gamestate feels kinda similar to how i think it would feel if that were indeed the case

[fireisredsir]

ok well im just gonna talk to myself for a bit if no one is around

what i wanted to say earlier in my post that my phone ate, was that in the previous large, where datisi and skitter were both scum, i mostly townread them off play, but there were certain things that did hit as scummy for me. moreso for skitter, but datisi had a couple. and all of them came down to when the things that they chose to push, the things they chose to back off of, the way they positioned themselves, just felt a little... off. there were plenty of posts where they were logical, rational, hitting genuine emotional beats, productive, solving, etc etc, all the things a good town should do. and those mostly did a good job of masking the moments that seemed off and made them feel insignificant. but those moments were still there.

i know thats a sample size of 1, but i also did feel similar things from skitter in panic room d1, so im rolling with it as a model of what i should be looking for when scumhunting Good Players (tm), cause i don't have any better ideas when there aren't any flips.

so i reread the game and here's a mostly unordered and maybe incomplete list

1. skitter backing off dwlee in 182. i was not satisfied at all with dwlee's answer here and i don't think skitter should have been either

2. skitter being the "reasonable party" in the prism vs ari debate is something ive seen scum skitter do. but i have a feeling its just something that skitter does. still noting it bc it is something i thought about

3. prism's switch on ari in 155. i know she's said recently that she thinks that would have been bad scumplay for her to do that, but idk the latching on thing here just kiiinda feels like the way in which scum could look for a weak spot to attack and tunnel. town can do that too obviously, and i think prisms reasoning later in the argument are fair and reasonable and well-stated, but there's something about the initial trigger that i don't quite buy. my heart isn't in this one tbh but i have told myself that im not supposed to listen to my heart here

4. vp's early aggressive push on skitter is just... hm. kinda reminds me of monkey in the recent panic room game, where he's plausibly hiding behind an exaggerated push "for the sake of pressure" because then you don't have to look genuine while doing it. hm hm. like it feels like it's too... out of the playbook? if that makes any sense? and something that someone would likely want to pull out if they're having trouble fitting in and vibing

5. my hearts not in this one either. shuichi in 222 and voting dwlee soon after. idk if i can really count this one bc i agree with it so it doesn't really feel off but... i can very easily see a world where scum would sheep me on a somewhat under the radar read. and people try to pocket me like an average of 10 times per game so i should probably be wary of that possibility

6. vp 255 just doesn't feel like vp picking on things that i think town vp should genuinely care about picking on

7. 275 mostly noting this for later if we get some flips. but it does feel like dwlee is realigning their reads to be looking for scum in the generally popular scumreads. this isn't an inherently scummy thing to do but it is a potentially significant positioning move

8. datisi giving a teamread of skitter/vp but not wanting to givr any sort of a read on vp individually felt a little off to me

9. actually kinda not loving datisi's push on skitter in general here on a reread, although it didn't bother me the first time. the things he's choosing as reasons don't quite feel like they match the tone of the push? god the more I type here the less i feel like these reads are useful or explained in any coherent way but im already committed

10. dwlee's switch on vp in 410 kinda stands out to me bc vp had just recently started making some more effort-y posts, but I don't think the posts were very good? maybe dwlee disagrees, but if they have tmi that vp is town, i think his posts would look townier than they are

11. prism with enchant as top townread in 422 is just strange imo. i don't think anyone is really obvtown here, so... maybe. mostly i just agree with all the points made by shuichi in 438



ok i got sleepy and this post is definitely already way longer than it should be. maybe ill continue this approach another time if i end up deciding it was useful

[fireisredsir]

no conclusions, only thoughts

maybe conclusions later

ill be back for more musing while lying in bed in like 24 hours maybe

sorry for the wall/spam etc etc

[Datisi]

Datisi, I'd like you to elaborate more on what questions/protrayals of mine are in bad faith and seem to be presuming a scum alignment for you.

I've always known you don't like pushes on you. My concern is that seeing strong stances when there were none, and a vague veneer of malice where there is none, is perhaps reflective of fear more than run of the mill defensiveness.

there's the weird mixture in your posts about me that's both "this is a scummy thing to do" and "it's not a big deal"

while i know it's possible to hold both of those opinions at the same time, the way you are presenting them feels like you're trying to play up both of those parts, playing up the first one to get the idea of scum!datisi in other people's heads while also playing up the second one to make sure people don't consiously think that that idea came from you

i don't know how else to interpret sequences like calling my push arbitrary (and therefore scummy) in 548, to turning my argument into something else in 650, to then making sure to point out it's not THAT big of a deal in 690. and what i mean by "turning it into something else" is that you are saying something around me criticizing skitter for "not doing the ideal play" when plainly now that's not what that was about. and that was in turn of me pointing out that "why didn't you ask why skitter was scumreading dwlee" is not a question to ask because that's never what i cared about.

like, it feels like you're on a mission to present my arguments as bad and present it like town!datisi would have absolutely done something else there. and if i say "hey, that's not what my push was about" (649) you turn it into "well, yes, that wasn't actually your push, but you were doing this other thing" (650) that also paints me in a bad light and is also untrue.

it doesn't feel like you're actually listening to what i'm saying or evaluating my words. it feels like you're jumping from one bad faith interpretation to another bad faith interpretation, then shielding yourself with a "it's actually not a big deal tho!!!!" when i call you out on it