Open 853 - PYP X/Y S_S [game over!]

[Harley Quinn]

mathblade tried pretty hard to derail the hem wagon he screamed, he was rude, he flung weird moonlogic everywhere - thats a sign of geniune belief imo and makes very little sense for scum!blade to do for town!hem

has hem done anything to derail the mathblade wagon?

HEM has been out of commission

Dude is recovering from painful surgery.

[Harley Quinn]

Same thing in 2272 looks like, I literally just don't ask as many questions as I used to

As many I would buy

You’re at 0 unless I missed one

Math, would you join me on Wallflower?

If you determined an anti-lim pool of five or six players without regard to time, popularity, or mechanics, who would it be?

Why is Wallflower scum? I feel like they’ve been pretty decent.

Also I think Dwlee is town here and Wallflower tr them.

Math still having me in his PoE is frankly gross after I unvoted him.

[Harley Quinn]

mathblade tried pretty hard to derail the hem wagon he screamed, he was rude, he flung weird moonlogic everywhere - thats a sign of geniune belief imo and makes very little sense for scum!blade to do for town!hem

has hem done anything to derail the mathblade wagon?

HEM has been out of commission

yes but read his iso

he doesnt really defend mathblade even when he is here

HEM said, pandering to town is something scum!Math would do right? So if HEM is town, that’s hardly an illogical take from him, considering Math voted him because you twisted his arm. Now you could still be right but the basis of HEM’s read on Math was him doing his own thing. So that could come from either scum or town!HEM.

[Aristeia]

Spoiler: Why I am convinced the answer is HEM, Math, Ari... but we save Ari until the end in case I'm wrong

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Remember this. We'll be coming back to it.


HEM is a pretty confident universal scumread for everyone. So I'm not going to waste my time there.
Then, we get to Math. His meta is unquestionably strange and hard to put the finger on. I was dealing with the fact Math wasn't pushing theories at all, but he didn't seem to have an agenda. Roden acknowledged this too. Harley Quinn thought it made Math scum, but I wanted to sort out the lack of an agenda.

We're at 1929, I began to get suspicious that Ari was defending a scum!Blade here. Why would Math be suddenly able to play the game after voting out his townread and in an environment where he feels like he cannot give townblocks?

I sat on this for a bit (not long LOL) and discussed HEM + Math together with Roden for a moment. We both observed the same behavior from Math, so that likely meant it was significant and worth exploring. If I could get Ari alone, I could get Ari to articulate a reason to townread Math beyond he'll be useful after HEM flips or he'll give a scumread. I wanted to corner Ari to see if she was actually townreading Math. I didn't predict it to be as illuminating as it was.

In 1945, I start to put feelers out on if Ari is ever willing to vote Math because it does no good to catch Math if the people who have the stomach/fortitude to flip Math are all dead. That's most likely me and HQ. Ari said that she persuaded Math of something which is a rare feat. So Ari would be in that class. So it was worth a line.

In 1952, I claim that scum are going to argue that Math is town because they're a counter to HEM.
Ari immediately does that in the next post.

Ari then starts going back to my old Implo/HEM theory.
I didn't even bother reading the rest of the post for detail once I saw Ari claiming Math's flip spewed him town. I was like nuuhuh biatch.

Ari's post sets out two premises
1) HEM is anti-spew (not 100% sure I agree but I see it and I scumread HEM so ok)
and
2) Math hasn't anti-spew because his flip clears so many.

So that makes me think, was the odd behavior from Math anti-spew?

In 1967, Ari says that when Math sees he's going down that he goes straight into anti-spew and gives a link.

In order to check my theory, I go to the game. I find out who Math is (he's under an alt). I then go to the back of his ISO because that's the most relevant part, establishing how Math sounds when he's anti-spewing. Math's refusal to form a townblock or a cohesive readslist sounds like anti-spew to me.

So I test this theory through a series of questions that I can use no matter the answer. The idea is to get Ari to compare an "unknown" speaker to scum and then compare it to Math's game to see if I can get Ari to defend Math's actual play here or whether Ari would think Math is scummy in a vacuum.

This lets me read Ari to see if Ari is genuinely believing her Math defense and if she is to give her an opportunity to defend the root of the issue, Math's "odd for him" play.

When I posted 1975 asking if the speaker was town or scum, that wasn't the point. No matter what answer Ari gave, I would have told her it was scum that posted. It was a softball designed to have a casual conversation and not inform her that I was actually hunting any particular read in particular since I go off on tangents all the time. That "no tangents" thing might have been ruined but non essential.

Twenty minutes later, Ari says the post is "scum anti-spew". Ari and I both know that Ari has to say it's scum anti-spew. Otherwise, her linking the very game the post comes from is pointless.

Now, unpredicatably, Math comes in and claims ownership of the post in 1994. Now, if I was Ari and a player claimed a known scum post as their own, I'd at least be a little concerned. Instead, Ari is replying to a post from earlier stating she'd be "confused" if Math was scum.

Ari then states that Math stops posting when faced with going down and that's how he "anti-spews". Now, how many of you think that Math can actually stop posting when he gets on a roll? He literally cannot. His anti-spew matches more the text of the post from his micro game that putting in effort isn't worthwhile.

you are talking about one post...

i am talking about the entire iso

math when hes antispewing just shuts up and stops posting

That made me think to compare Math's ISO. Math's tonal irregularities match the last post of that microgame. His ISO is full of it and excuses about why he's not the regular math with theories. No one would listen etc. This isn't a micro game where Math can prod dodge and if he did that would be a scumclaim.

So he just picks fights and never solves.

In 2008, Math says he vibes with himself...when he's scum. Like Math could not be waiving a bigger red flag. He then says if it's not this game it's not relevant which is LOL but adorbs.

In 2011, Ari says that she reads Math by volume and

intention

but how can she be reading Math's posts for intention when she "stopped reading" his posts "awhile ago" according to 1998?

After a bit, Math realizes that he should probably 180 on me. He tries to claim my reaching out to him was scummy in 2020 in an abrupt about face. The rationale is laughable.

Ari's response to this conflicting information and sibling fight is to turn back to the implosion read. 2022
Math just tries to copy this theory by adding me with HEM and Implo.

Now remember that question from before...

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Wallflower's wrong post in 2064 is more consistent with what I expect town to do. Wallflower's wrong, but she's defending the read with substance and not deflecting like the repeated attempts to turn to HEM without saying how Math is town. Wallflower says how Math is town. (No Town!Math never does a full reset here, but it's important that Wallflower defended the position and not the accuracy.) Wallflower still has a chance to be scum if I'm wrong about Ari but I fully expect not to be.

ok but i kind of doubt mathblade flips scum and if hem/mathblade both flip scum then im fine with being limmed cuz like lol we r going to win since enchant never endgames anyway

[Harley Quinn]

Wallflower I would need to see a case about tbh.

I really think Dwlee or HQ or Implosion are more likely to hit scum

But I don’t have a hard tr on Wallflower

This is why you don’t get listened to.

Sorry that was a bit bitchy but I’m at my rope with Math playing real or fake so oblivious here.

[Harley Quinn]

In all games, if Math is trying to take the town towards HIS direction - Math town
If Math is trying to let the town do what they want and pander to existing talking points - Math scum

Ill die by this read

It isn’t illogical for HEM to switch his read on Math after he voted him and put him in danger, so whatever HEM is, his switching his read on Math is consistent with this post.

[Harley Quinn]

Just ISO’d HEM, I’m not super confident on it but I’m not at all confident he flips scum here, in fact I’m currently leaning the opposite but it’s weak.

[Harley Quinn]

Dwlee, you’re both arguing that you are asking lots of questions here, and that this is not your towngame anymore. Why both of these?

I think I used to ask more questions than I do now

Math saying I asked no questions this game is just blatantly false though

Math should not give meta reads like ever.

[Harley Quinn]

Oh that.

That was me being a little blunt by using a metaphor. A housefly isn't going to brute force its way out of a Venus Fly Trap. It has to use finesse.

Math is trying to use brute force to persuade usually and it doesn't work here. He views coordination as his views being dominant because of how he perceives the world. He's not ready to have a conversation about how his mindset rubs people wrong on this site.

He prefers to think that it's the site viewing him negatively instead, which is his loss.

It’s hard not to be rubbed the wrong way when he persists in hardpushing ridiculously inaccurate and proven false meta reads as being accurate.

Math: X is scum because meta.

X (and/or others) gloriously debunks that read.

Math: X is scum because meta.

[Harley Quinn]

It's frustrating because there needs to a middle ground between ignore math and 10 pages of why you're wrong when you're just getting thoughts down or discussing with other people.

It's like trying to watch an interactive, collaborative movie and someone keeps trying to change the script, pause it to analyze over and over or rush the ending when we're needing to go somewhere else to understand the story.

[Harley Quinn]

mathblade tried pretty hard to derail the hem wagon he screamed, he was rude, he flung weird moonlogic everywhere - thats a sign of geniune belief imo and makes very little sense for scum!blade to do for town!hem

has hem done anything to derail the mathblade wagon?

HEM has been out of commission

yes but read his iso

he doesnt really defend mathblade even when he is here

This feels pretty important and I think it needs some emphasis on why this is AI

HEM's latest take is that wagons are getting pushed by scum to try to out PRs. However, he's pretty low on the draft list, so it doesn't make much sense to push him just to get info on where PRs are, and he continued to be a leading wagon even after he claimed VT anyway. The only other notable wagons were Ari, who never claimed since her wagon died early, Dwlee, who's even lower than HEM and also didn't claim, and Math, who didn't claim but is at the bottom of the draft and has no real chance to snag a PR. The narrative that scum are pushing wagons to PR hunt just doesn't make much sense.

Despite this, he tried to take his town read back on Math recently even though he had him as lock town earlier, and should be considered town if scum are hunting for PRs like he claimed. What I think is really going on is that he realized his logic was inherently flawed and that he needs to anti-spew his "read" on Math in case he gets elim'd first.

You could be right?

[Titus]

Well crap. I need sleep. Will read tmo unless insomnia brings me back.

[Harley Quinn]

Spoiler: Why I am convinced the answer is HEM, Math, Ari... but we save Ari until the end in case I'm wrong

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Remember this. We'll be coming back to it.


HEM is a pretty confident universal scumread for everyone. So I'm not going to waste my time there.
Then, we get to Math. His meta is unquestionably strange and hard to put the finger on. I was dealing with the fact Math wasn't pushing theories at all, but he didn't seem to have an agenda. Roden acknowledged this too. Harley Quinn thought it made Math scum, but I wanted to sort out the lack of an agenda.

We're at 1929, I began to get suspicious that Ari was defending a scum!Blade here. Why would Math be suddenly able to play the game after voting out his townread and in an environment where he feels like he cannot give townblocks?

I sat on this for a bit (not long LOL) and discussed HEM + Math together with Roden for a moment. We both observed the same behavior from Math, so that likely meant it was significant and worth exploring. If I could get Ari alone, I could get Ari to articulate a reason to townread Math beyond he'll be useful after HEM flips or he'll give a scumread. I wanted to corner Ari to see if she was actually townreading Math. I didn't predict it to be as illuminating as it was.

In 1945, I start to put feelers out on if Ari is ever willing to vote Math because it does no good to catch Math if the people who have the stomach/fortitude to flip Math are all dead. That's most likely me and HQ. Ari said that she persuaded Math of something which is a rare feat. So Ari would be in that class. So it was worth a line.

In 1952, I claim that scum are going to argue that Math is town because they're a counter to HEM.
Ari immediately does that in the next post.

Ari then starts going back to my old Implo/HEM theory.
I didn't even bother reading the rest of the post for detail once I saw Ari claiming Math's flip spewed him town. I was like nuuhuh biatch.

Ari's post sets out two premises
1) HEM is anti-spew (not 100% sure I agree but I see it and I scumread HEM so ok)
and
2) Math hasn't anti-spew because his flip clears so many.

So that makes me think, was the odd behavior from Math anti-spew?

In 1967, Ari says that when Math sees he's going down that he goes straight into anti-spew and gives a link.

In order to check my theory, I go to the game. I find out who Math is (he's under an alt). I then go to the back of his ISO because that's the most relevant part, establishing how Math sounds when he's anti-spewing. Math's refusal to form a townblock or a cohesive readslist sounds like anti-spew to me.

So I test this theory through a series of questions that I can use no matter the answer. The idea is to get Ari to compare an "unknown" speaker to scum and then compare it to Math's game to see if I can get Ari to defend Math's actual play here or whether Ari would think Math is scummy in a vacuum.

This lets me read Ari to see if Ari is genuinely believing her Math defense and if she is to give her an opportunity to defend the root of the issue, Math's "odd for him" play.

When I posted 1975 asking if the speaker was town or scum, that wasn't the point. No matter what answer Ari gave, I would have told her it was scum that posted. It was a softball designed to have a casual conversation and not inform her that I was actually hunting any particular read in particular since I go off on tangents all the time. That "no tangents" thing might have been ruined but non essential.

Twenty minutes later, Ari says the post is "scum anti-spew". Ari and I both know that Ari has to say it's scum anti-spew. Otherwise, her linking the very game the post comes from is pointless.

Now, unpredicatably, Math comes in and claims ownership of the post in 1994. Now, if I was Ari and a player claimed a known scum post as their own, I'd at least be a little concerned. Instead, Ari is replying to a post from earlier stating she'd be "confused" if Math was scum.

Ari then states that Math stops posting when faced with going down and that's how he "anti-spews". Now, how many of you think that Math can actually stop posting when he gets on a roll? He literally cannot. His anti-spew matches more the text of the post from his micro game that putting in effort isn't worthwhile.

you are talking about one post...

i am talking about the entire iso

math when hes antispewing just shuts up and stops posting

That made me think to compare Math's ISO. Math's tonal irregularities match the last post of that microgame. His ISO is full of it and excuses about why he's not the regular math with theories. No one would listen etc. This isn't a micro game where Math can prod dodge and if he did that would be a scumclaim.

So he just picks fights and never solves.

In 2008, Math says he vibes with himself...when he's scum. Like Math could not be waiving a bigger red flag. He then says if it's not this game it's not relevant which is LOL but adorbs.

In 2011, Ari says that she reads Math by volume and

intention

but how can she be reading Math's posts for intention when she "stopped reading" his posts "awhile ago" according to 1998?

After a bit, Math realizes that he should probably 180 on me. He tries to claim my reaching out to him was scummy in 2020 in an abrupt about face. The rationale is laughable.

Ari's response to this conflicting information and sibling fight is to turn back to the implosion read. 2022
Math just tries to copy this theory by adding me with HEM and Implo.

Now remember that question from before...

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Wallflower's wrong post in 2064 is more consistent with what I expect town to do. Wallflower's wrong, but she's defending the read with substance and not deflecting like the repeated attempts to turn to HEM without saying how Math is town. Wallflower says how Math is town. (No Town!Math never does a full reset here, but it's important that Wallflower defended the position and not the accuracy.) Wallflower still has a chance to be scum if I'm wrong about Ari but I fully expect not to be.

Whoa! Yeah, you, Gamma and Roden are definite townlocks for me now. I’m also liking Implosion better and better.

Something to note: Both Math and HEM have hardpushed Dwlee. Don’t know if I agree about Ari but if Math is scum, actually more likely than not if HEM is because if either flips scum, it looks > than rand SvS to me because of Math/HEM associatives.

[Harley Quinn]

VOTE: Mathblade

Math’s frustration at me does sound genuine but in the same way SS!scum did when he threatened to out me. Granted Math didn’t take that anywhere to those grotesque levels but I also don’t believe for one second his sr on me is real. Plus, pretty much everything I’ve said so far in this game about his not believing his reads. I unvoted him to test out his Dwlee theory and he didn’t reacess on me and when his meta reasons for pushing Dwlee got debunked, he never tried to re-evaluate.

Both Math and HEM are pushing them and it’s hard not to see that as a coincidence.

[Datisi]

vote count 1.19

with 14 votes in play, it takes 8 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-06-14 01:30:00).

yeet

humaneatingmonkey [5]:

Roden, Aristeia, MathBlade, Bellaphant, Gamma Emerald

MathBlade [4]:

Save The Dragons, Titus, Dwlee99, Harley Quinn

Dwlee99 [2]:

Ausuka, humaneatingmonkey

Aristeia [1]:

Enchant

Not Voting [2]:

Wallflower, implosion

mod notes

~ humaneatingmonkey v/la wednesday to friday.
~ Gamma Emerald v/la for a week.
~ dual mod iso.
~ this is mod note.

flavour

[Aristeia]

Spoiler: Good Morning Dats<3

[Enchant]

ok but i kind of doubt mathblade flips scum and if hem/mathblade both flip scum then im fine with being limmed cuz like lol we r going to win since enchant never endgames anyway

You talking about me, but you doing that without respect. You didn't even kiss my shoe.

[Titus]

Will shift at L minus 2

[Wallflower]

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

there you go

[Wallflower]

By L I assume you mean lasso

[Roden]

Spoiler: Why I am convinced the answer is HEM, Math, Ari... but we save Ari until the end in case I'm wrong

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Remember this. We'll be coming back to it.


HEM is a pretty confident universal scumread for everyone. So I'm not going to waste my time there.
Then, we get to Math. His meta is unquestionably strange and hard to put the finger on. I was dealing with the fact Math wasn't pushing theories at all, but he didn't seem to have an agenda. Roden acknowledged this too. Harley Quinn thought it made Math scum, but I wanted to sort out the lack of an agenda.

We're at 1929, I began to get suspicious that Ari was defending a scum!Blade here. Why would Math be suddenly able to play the game after voting out his townread and in an environment where he feels like he cannot give townblocks?

I sat on this for a bit (not long LOL) and discussed HEM + Math together with Roden for a moment. We both observed the same behavior from Math, so that likely meant it was significant and worth exploring. If I could get Ari alone, I could get Ari to articulate a reason to townread Math beyond he'll be useful after HEM flips or he'll give a scumread. I wanted to corner Ari to see if she was actually townreading Math. I didn't predict it to be as illuminating as it was.

In 1945, I start to put feelers out on if Ari is ever willing to vote Math because it does no good to catch Math if the people who have the stomach/fortitude to flip Math are all dead. That's most likely me and HQ. Ari said that she persuaded Math of something which is a rare feat. So Ari would be in that class. So it was worth a line.

In 1952, I claim that scum are going to argue that Math is town because they're a counter to HEM.
Ari immediately does that in the next post.

Ari then starts going back to my old Implo/HEM theory.
I didn't even bother reading the rest of the post for detail once I saw Ari claiming Math's flip spewed him town. I was like nuuhuh biatch.

Ari's post sets out two premises
1) HEM is anti-spew (not 100% sure I agree but I see it and I scumread HEM so ok)
and
2) Math hasn't anti-spew because his flip clears so many.

So that makes me think, was the odd behavior from Math anti-spew?

In 1967, Ari says that when Math sees he's going down that he goes straight into anti-spew and gives a link.

In order to check my theory, I go to the game. I find out who Math is (he's under an alt). I then go to the back of his ISO because that's the most relevant part, establishing how Math sounds when he's anti-spewing. Math's refusal to form a townblock or a cohesive readslist sounds like anti-spew to me.

So I test this theory through a series of questions that I can use no matter the answer. The idea is to get Ari to compare an "unknown" speaker to scum and then compare it to Math's game to see if I can get Ari to defend Math's actual play here or whether Ari would think Math is scummy in a vacuum.

This lets me read Ari to see if Ari is genuinely believing her Math defense and if she is to give her an opportunity to defend the root of the issue, Math's "odd for him" play.

When I posted 1975 asking if the speaker was town or scum, that wasn't the point. No matter what answer Ari gave, I would have told her it was scum that posted. It was a softball designed to have a casual conversation and not inform her that I was actually hunting any particular read in particular since I go off on tangents all the time. That "no tangents" thing might have been ruined but non essential.

Twenty minutes later, Ari says the post is "scum anti-spew". Ari and I both know that Ari has to say it's scum anti-spew. Otherwise, her linking the very game the post comes from is pointless.

Now, unpredicatably, Math comes in and claims ownership of the post in 1994. Now, if I was Ari and a player claimed a known scum post as their own, I'd at least be a little concerned. Instead, Ari is replying to a post from earlier stating she'd be "confused" if Math was scum.

Ari then states that Math stops posting when faced with going down and that's how he "anti-spews". Now, how many of you think that Math can actually stop posting when he gets on a roll? He literally cannot. His anti-spew matches more the text of the post from his micro game that putting in effort isn't worthwhile.

you are talking about one post...

i am talking about the entire iso

math when hes antispewing just shuts up and stops posting

That made me think to compare Math's ISO. Math's tonal irregularities match the last post of that microgame. His ISO is full of it and excuses about why he's not the regular math with theories. No one would listen etc. This isn't a micro game where Math can prod dodge and if he did that would be a scumclaim.

So he just picks fights and never solves.

In 2008, Math says he vibes with himself...when he's scum. Like Math could not be waiving a bigger red flag. He then says if it's not this game it's not relevant which is LOL but adorbs.

In 2011, Ari says that she reads Math by volume and

intention

but how can she be reading Math's posts for intention when she "stopped reading" his posts "awhile ago" according to 1998?

After a bit, Math realizes that he should probably 180 on me. He tries to claim my reaching out to him was scummy in 2020 in an abrupt about face. The rationale is laughable.

Ari's response to this conflicting information and sibling fight is to turn back to the implosion read. 2022
Math just tries to copy this theory by adding me with HEM and Implo.

Now remember that question from before...

Question: What options are available for someone who genuinely holds a belief and they are presented with conflicting information?

Answer: They double down on their opinion, they change their mind, or they acknowledge the cognitive dissonance.

Wallflower's wrong post in 2064 is more consistent with what I expect town to do. Wallflower's wrong, but she's defending the read with substance and not deflecting like the repeated attempts to turn to HEM without saying how Math is town. Wallflower says how Math is town. (No Town!Math never does a full reset here, but it's important that Wallflower defended the position and not the accuracy.) Wallflower still has a chance to be scum if I'm wrong about Ari but I fully expect not to be.

I had a feeling Ari was your third. I've generally town read her all of today, I don't really think she's scum here and the double bus seems a bit unnecessary if both HEM and Math flip red. I don't think she has much justification to not be NK'd before ELo, so I feel like that would just be a losing strategy for her. Also I'm still not completely sold on Math, but I think you've made a lot of solid points. I want to see how he reacts and what he'll do Day 2 before I decide there.

[Titus]

Fair. I just couldn't not post that in case I died.

VOTE: HEM

[Titus]

L minus 1 Enchant

[Harley Quinn]

L minus 1 Enchant

Are we ready to end the day?

[Enchant]

VOTE: HEM