Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[Irrelephant11]

Official Vote Count 4.01

this orange slice is on its way to become orange juice, and doesn’t waste time playing mafia on the internet.

elimination

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(0): Nobody

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(3): Coral, Datisi, scamper

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-08-18 20:10:15).

Mod notes:

<3

[scamper]

the point is it is mostly you just say you wouldn't do this or that as scum and i don't think such arguments are really any good

why do you think that argument from me isn't good, but you keep making such arguments yourself?

(this isn't meant to be a shitty gotcha, i'm genuinely curious)

i dunno. i recognize that but i still kind of place myself in that mindset because i'm arguing off the top of my head and it's almost, like, reflexive to me to think that way and say "i wouldn't have done that as scum" even if it is unlikely to be persuasive. i'm writing what comes to mind rather than thinking it through all the way. i'm not sure that's actually AI except to say that in last scum game i was basically ducking real time interaction except when i had to and letting town screw up. that was a different gamestate though since i was universally townread because the traitor raged out at me and i was in the background, so i dont think it would really be applicable here

[scamper]

i feel like i should be asking datisi something but i'm not sure what i wanna ask actually

[Datisi]

i mean
how likely do you think it is i'm town here? if less than 100%, then what is making you doubt it?

[Datisi]

this orange slice is on its way to become orange juice,

and doesn’t waste time playing mafia on the internet

.

the mod is shading all of us

[scamper]

i mean
how likely do you think it is i'm town here? if less than 100%, then what is making you doubt it?

i'm 50/50 right now, or close enough to that i am not willing to state a lean

[scamper]

yesrerday i was "grr it's coral lim coral". today i am trying to come into the game with an open mind. there are narrative points i can see toward either of you being scum here

[Datisi]

interesting, that's not what i was expecting you to say

is the reason behind that "switch" (ik it's not exactly a switch but you kno what i mean) in reads explained in the last few pages that i haven't read yet? if not, can you explain how you got there? (if yes, then wait for me to finish dinner)

pedit: no, that's fair
i'm just surprised those narrative points are of same weight to you, if that makes sense?

[scamper]

interesting, that's not what i was expecting you to say

is the reason behind that "switch" (ik it's not exactly a switch but you kno what i mean) in reads explained in the last few pages that i haven't read yet? if not, can you explain how you got there? (if yes, then wait for me to finish dinner)

pedit: no, that's fair
i'm just surprised those narrative points are of same weight to you, if that makes sense?

okay well i am trying to be open minded here

let me try to run it down:

points for town!coral:
- the claim is a very unusual/out of the box one to set up as scum and i'm not sure why scum would play it that way
- i'm not sure scum responds to my pressure the way she has

points for scum!coral:
- bad read on her from phoenix
- awkward progression on phoe/galron
- has come acros very artificial at times
- setup sort of feels like it makes sense if there's a scum neighborizer and a town backup (this is a pure guess on my part it just feels like something that 'fits')

points for town!datisi:
- pushed on phoenix early
- you had a similar read to me on ari/ausuka

points for scum!datisi:
- your progression on galron wasn't as strong as i remembered it being
- a lot of your takes on day 1 i just didn't agree with or didn't see where the reasoning was coming from
- it felt like you were nitpicking me to start today and i think that's +scum for you
- ~secret tell~ i dont want to explain if its right

[Coral]

okay. i think thats because in general i have a really hard time getting my thoughts across to people and when i offer explanations they usually say they dont care so i get frustrated and give up. i think i have an ?easier? time explaining things as scum because again i know the answers and can just tell people something that makes sense to them. i am not reticent to expand and i dont have a problem with being able to make things up as scum, i just have really simple explanations for why i think most things

hmm

I did lightly townread you for essentially this in the early game, that you didn't feel any need to make things up further. But... I'm not exactly sure how best to put this, but I do think that you could easily get frustrated as scum at feeling like your effort is being dismissed. I guess I can accept though that as scum you would be more likely to want to put in work to look town through your explanations, especially without any completed town games on this account.

peronally, thinking i let meg go over there as scum by weakly defending them is not giving credit to my play as scum. i think in that instance i fight tooth and nail to keep meg alive as scum because at that moment, meg is my victory condition. i would want meg in elo knowing 1. meg is unlikely to vote for me 2. if meg does vote me i can probably win that 1v1 given that everyone else was scumreading meg more than me. this is similar to how i played the mini normal as scum: i was sort of pushing marci, but i realized that keeping her alive meant that she was very likely to be the one voted out in ELO (my partner actually mentioned this) so i pivoted to defending her that day. i would have done that here as scum given that you/me/dats is obviously a lot moe unfavorable to me than me/dats/meg would be (or me/you/meg in some world where i pivoted to pushing datisi)

This is a bit more convincing to me. I thought that you would want me in ELO since you can just continue your push on me that you've had all game, but after the hood reveal I expect that you would probably be worried that Datisi isn't going to vote me, and might then fight harder to keep Meg alive.

[Coral]

- ~secret tell~ i dont want to explain if its right

I hate that my immediate reaction to this is to believe it

why must my brain do this to me

[Coral]

I expect that you would probably be worried that Datisi isn't going to vote me, and might then fight harder to keep Meg alive.

Actually I guess if you have that reaction then Datisi isn't going to vote you yesterday either and so you don't have 3 votes, so maybe throw that chain of logic out the window

[scamper]

I did lightly townread you for essentially this in the early game, that you didn't feel any need to make things up further. But... I'm not exactly sure how best to put this, but I do think that you could easily get frustrated as scum at feeling like your effort is being dismissed. I guess I can accept though that as scum you would be more likely to want to put in work to look town through your explanations, especially without any completed town games on this account.

i really don't get frustrated as scum that way i know this is unverifiable self-meta but i basically walk into every game with a red role pm confident i can win it and say what i need to to sway people. i think the best argument would again be that i was doing it strategically

This is a bit more convincing to me. I thought that you would want me in ELO since you can just continue your push on me that you've had all game, but after the hood reveal I expect that you would probably be worried that Datisi isn't going to vote me, and might then fight harder to keep Meg alive.

i think thatsa fair and believable mindset if you are town because i can see, from your end, getting exasperated with the person tunneling you and believing you are so obviously town that only scum would be unable to see it. and i think to some extent that was what you meant with the idea that i would not re-evaluate you? idk if i got that right, let me know.

to me a lot of your responses have been very

reasonable

to me in that you have basically said "fair enough but i disagree with so and so" but have not really gone about proving to me why i am wrong in my read. and thats fine. maybe its your playstyle, maybe you just thought it was a waste of time. but at the time i thought it was potentially scum!indicative and certainly didn't give me cause to reconsider.

but the thing about that is, at any rate, you have to take your ego out of it and not be upset at me misreading you if you're town. because i think if you follow my logic it makes sense for me even if you know its wrong, and also i just dont think its good play as scum to be hard tunneling you when seemingly the entire game wont bite on the push. and i am, right now, considering all possibilities and contemplating a town!you world and giving you every opportunity to show me why you are town


i will readily admit at the moment of the hood reveal i *was* worried that one of you/datisi would vote me, but from a town pov, in that the town in you would be too pocketed to evaluate me fairly. i dont think thats an unreasonable concern but its probably what i would be playing into as scum here.

[scamper]

- ~secret tell~ i dont want to explain if its right

I hate that my immediate reaction to this is to believe it

why must my brain do this to me

lol

i mean the thing is singular posts like that are the easiest to fake and you should absolutely not be betting the game on something like that. but i am town and i feel like i should be able to get you there if you are town

[Coral]

I know, that's why I hate that I had that reaction. I won't put too much stock in it, don't worry !

[scamper]

i mean i wouldnt mind if you did because it would at least make life easier for me but its not good process

[Datisi]

- it felt like you were nitpicking me to start today and i think that's +scum for you

i mean, when i first entered the day, i was thinking how i almost always end up voting you, but i have since changed my mind and realized this is harder than i first thought, so i feel like my nitpicking had a purpose there

like, do you think my questions were pointless?

[scamper]

pointless no but as scum you are going to want to feel like you are justifying pushing me. if you are town of course you are trying to get a read on me etc etc.

but i thought you going back specifically to say "here are all the posts scamper made about meg, scamper didn't explain his read on meg enough!!" was a nitpicky type of analysis that i can see coming from scum!you

[Coral]

i think thatsa fair and believable mindset if you are town because i can see, from your end, getting exasperated with the person tunneling you and believing you are so obviously town that only scum would be unable to see it. and i think to some extent that was what you meant with the idea that i would not re-evaluate you? idk if i got that right, let me know.

to me a lot of your responses have been very reasonable to me in that you have basically said "fair enough but i disagree with so and so" but have not really gone about proving to me why i am wrong in my read. and thats fine. maybe its your playstyle, maybe you just thought it was a waste of time. but at the time i thought it was potentially scum!indicative and certainly didn't give me cause to reconsider.

but the thing about that is, at any rate, you have to take your ego out of it and not be upset at me misreading you if you're town. because i think if you follow my logic it makes sense for me even if you know its wrong, and also i just dont think its good play as scum to be hard tunneling you when seemingly the entire game wont bite on the push. and i am, right now, considering all possibilities and contemplating a town!you world and giving you every opportunity to show me why you are town

mmmm no not really, to the first paragraph? I don't think I'm super obviously town here on play. I think that the thing that is most alien to me to imagine doing as scum is the whole claim situation, but I also understand that to those who don't know me, that won't be convincing enough. I don't think that your push on me is that relevant to my evaluation of your alignment because I could see it coming from either direction.

As for the second paragraph, yes, I think that is just how I respond to such things as either alignment. In most cases I think I'm pretty good at looking at things objectively, and understanding what things about my play are likely to attract attention. On one hand, that can be helpful for avoiding getting tunneled on town who are pushing me for fair reasons. But on the other hand, I'm not very good at acting all bristle-y and getting people to stay away from pushing me, and sometimes scum can walk over me. I'm probably too understanding, on the whole

For the third, I'm not upset about your read on me at all. I agree that your logic is fine. I care more about your motivations. I don't think that your approach to this game could really be categorized as bad scumplay at all considering I think if you're scum you have a pretty good chance of winning here, from a situation that looked pretty dire after day 1 and a setup that seems to me like it's pretty townsided.

[Datisi]

i think it's easier to find arguments for why people are town when you are coming from a place of perfect knowledge and know that your reasons are accurate and you can aways position yourself as being correct. i think i did this a lot in my scumgame

it also really doesnt matter cuz of course you have to go back on it the next day but no one will really care at all, ive never seen anyone get voted for pushing someone they were formerly townreadign at aelo. its easy to frame as re-evaluation

i feel like the same argument can be made a different way - it is easier to stay consistent with your scumreads than to have to fake re-evaluation

and i don't think i see how you can argue that the fact you went back to look for reasons to townread me, then realized there are some reasons to scumread me is a *towntell* for you here, considering it was possible i was one of the people you were gonna have to push in yeetlo (idr if this was before or after ausuka was revealed conftown, but it doesn't really matter i think as you were basically locktown on them anyway)

i think i might just ignore the self-meta entirely because all of it is completely unverifiable and also it makes my head hurt

[scamper]

I don't think that your push on me is that relevant to my evaluation of your alignment because I could see it coming from either direction.

At the start of the day I was feeling pretty convinced you were scum, actually. I expected that if you're town then you would give things a fair evaluation and wouldn't hard tunnel, although I would still guess that you'd likely in the end still come back to voting me.

?

(not trying to pull a gotcha, just trying to understand how these two statements connect)

[Coral]

but i thought you going back specifically to say "here are all the posts scamper made about meg, scamper didn't explain his read on meg enough!!" was a nitpicky type of analysis that i can see coming from scum!you

I actually sort of felt this as well, for what it's worth, since it was a point that I felt I had already made, and laying out the quotes of all the posts didn't really add any additional analysis to the situation.

[Datisi]

pointless no but as scum you are going to want to feel like you are justifying pushing me. if you are town of course you are trying to get a read on me etc etc.

but i thought you going back specifically to say "here are all the posts scamper made about meg, scamper didn't explain his read on meg enough!!" was a nitpicky type of analysis that i can see coming from scum!you

the reason why i went through your iso looking for those posts was to see if i had missed you explaining a read somewhere because i was about to feel really stupid if i had

and i included the quotes to prevent the possibility of scum-scamper telling me they'd explained it already and to just go read myself

[scamper]

and i don't think i see how you can argue that the fact you went back to look for reasons to townread me, then realized there are some reasons to scumread me is a *towntell* for you here, considering it was possible i was one of the people you were gonna have to push in yeetlo (idr if this was before or after ausuka was revealed conftown, but it doesn't really matter i think as you were basically locktown on them anyway)

i dont think the action itself is inherently a towntell but i think the way i went about it is evidence that i am *really thinking* about the game and actually trying to scumhunt rather than having the answers laid out before me

[Datisi]

there are quite a few comments that i want to make about my own play and my idea of scumplay, at the comments about my towncases, but that's self meta that i don't think is going to be helpful

idk, i have a bad habit of getting tunneled

but my actual mindset at the start of the day was: i was right, i'm annoyed cuz no one listened to me, i expect both of you to turn against me cuz

whoever was scum was very much setting up for that pivot yesterday

, i just want someone to vote me b/c i hate being the one to decide in this situation


but i will say regardless of whatever my words might seem like they're implying i'm rereading and re-evaluating with an open mind

how is the bolded something you came to the conclusion of? specifically in the context of my play.