Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[springlullaby]

Why are you requesting replacement?

To be at liberty to say FUCK YOU and your disgusting little comments.

I've been gracious enough to attempt to put the whole thing behind, going as far as dismissing everything on my being in a foul mood, but you had to bring it up again.

Man who are you to judge what should or shouldn't pisses me off, you're the one to act all put upon just because I said FUCK YOU.

[Incognito]

ban plz ^^^

[Elmo]

Guardian replaces springlullaby. Thanks, Guardian!

[Guardian]

Hi guys . I see that peace and happiness precedes my coming.

I just got my role from Patrick (pro-town obv. obv.) and will read the game soon, and have comments .

[Jahudo]

I think more people need to say if they think Incog was playing the agitator on SL. I don't think so. The two posts she just referenced I don't think are so bad, or as bad as I've seen so maybe it's all perception. The second one I didn't even understand: Ether theory? huh? Anyway, I'd like to hear at least some kind of response from the newly replaced.

[Incognito]

Jahudo, why do you think springlullaby was frustrated? What do you think she could have been frustrated about?

The second one I didn't even understand: Ether theory? huh?

That second was actually more in reference to iLord. Ether (the player on MS) made up this joking theory that a person who can't tell whether someone is a female or male based on the gender icon in the profile is probably scum. Since iLord kept calling springlullaby a "he", I jokingly said I should apply Ether's theory to iLord and label him as scum.

In other news, I think springlullaby's reaction still comes from scum. I think she was agitated that I found this meta against her, and she stormed off because of that. I did nothing to provoke her, so her reaction seems over the top. Also, I still think my case against her is valid.

Plus, Guardian is always scum in games I'm in. QED.

Unvote
Vote: Guardian

Major FoS: iLord

[Raging Rabbit]

I do think you sorta nodged her the wrong way, though her reaction is no doubt exaggarated. My read on her is pretty protown, though.

[eldarad]

I need to post more than once every 2 pages...

Eldarad, think about it - how can poor points decrease the value of the good points!

Poor points can sometimes be used to show a scum-driven case, but most of the time, townies bring up poor points more (Doesn't mean that it's a town tell, though).

Precisely because the poor points can give insight into the motivation behind making the case - is it to scumhunt, or to get an easy mislynch?
The consequence of your suggestion is that if a player who has claimed to be scum made some "good points" we should take them seriously as the bad points (ie, they are confirmed scum) do not cancel out the good points...

You really don't think it's genuine? I get no such sentiment.

Only townies get annoyed if the person their pushing is destroying their case. Scum would react quite differently, namely continuing to push the crap points or to drop it all together. Only a townie would resort to insults.

I really don't think it is genuine.
I also really don't think you are in a position to make such definite, sweeping statements about all townies and all scum.

I am not convinced by iLord's idea that RR's "backing off" was due to iLords pressure AND is indicative of scum.

Eldarad, what do you think of me exactly? You been saying stuff like you think my being pissed off was fake, only I don't see you voting for me, so yes, what do you think exactly?

I've already said - I can't decide whether the fake-aggression is due to alignment or because you are playing the game differently to how the real-life springlullaby (as opposed to the mafiascum persona) would play it.

Contradiction in this game is a subjective term. I have strong doubts about your alignment, so taking everything you say at face value would be a severe mistake. Saying that everyone should the accept the "it's not a contradiction because I say so" statement is completely false.

OK, so I guess a better question is this:
Regardless of whether you agree with iLord's opinion, due you believe he sincerely holds that opinion (even if he is wrong)?

Hi Guardian.

I think more people need to say if they think Incog was playing the agitator on SL. I don't think so. The two posts she just referenced I don't think are so bad, or as bad as I've seen so maybe it's all perception.

No, I don't think Incog has provoked sl at all.
For the record, I'm not convinced that the anger in #275 is real. However, I don't think it is worth a vote in preference to iLord.

[sthar8]

I guess some people need to be reminded of what the word "commitment" means...

Welcome, mana_ku.

Hi guardian, welcome to the game.

Jahudo: My opinion is already on the record, but I think the final outburst was almost entirely unprovoked. The whole thing makes me nervous about Incog because I've manipulated people's emotions before as scum, but I've also seen scum react this way to perceived slights (Muerrto reacting to Elmo in the last game Incog modded), and this kind of over-invested firestorm confuses reads on everyone involved, while I've got three better suspects.

Now, let's talk about iLord:

1. He continually pushed RR to back off from his attack on me (Do I need defending? How are you so sure of my alignment?), but once RR admitted that his read has changed, iLord started pushing him for changing his mind. While it would be reasonable to continue pushing based on your original points, attacking someone for

cooperating

seems really odd.

2. I really didn't like how he attempted to discredit Electra's opinions with an ad hominem attack aimed at her experience. I especially didn't like how vague he was in describing these tells, combined with his remarks to RR, Electra and Incog about how tells cannot be blindly and uniformly applied.

3. His setup theory is obviously based on a significantly different starting premise than mine. One solid explanation for this is that his alignment is different from mine.

4. He's been very soft on Crazy, especially considering his strong pushes elsewhere. I would not be surprised if Crazy and iLord are partners.

As you can see, none of these points are particularly strong, and two of them hinge on testable hypotheses. I'm not willing to lynch iLord at this time, especially since the case on Crazy is so much stronger, but I'm definitely keeping an eye on him.

We need more from Electra, TDC, and FL.

[Guardian]

Hi. I read the game.

Initial thoughts:

iLord and sth are linked. I find both town-like, but if either showed up scum I would drastically reevaluate the other.

eldarad and incognito are linked.

I find Incognito the most suspicious player. Him voting my role which he in part justifies because I replaced in (an event which has no bearing on alignment) peaked my interest, and when I read the game I found him the most suspicious player.

One of my least favorite posts of Incognito's was 56 - attack/probe two people, vote someone else for doing something that many people forgetfully do.

I think he started the agression between himself and springlullaby. I think some of SL's points against him have a strong appearance of validity and his continued dismissal of her in entirety is suspicious.

I think passive-agressiveness is scummy because it is designed to frustrate others and dismiss arguments instead of addressing them. Agressiveness on the other hand is townlike- townies try and find scum. Scum try and look like they are scum hunting and try and change the subject when they come under scrutiny.

Incognito's whole attack on SL looks like a long drawn out OMGUS and much more like the latter (pretend scum hunting) rather than the former (real scum hunting).

I will keep SL's vote on Incognito. I encourage others to vote him.

I am unsure what to make of Electra. Honestly I do think her post would be easy for scum to do, and if there are no vanilla roles like Electra claimed to have -- that is not a problem. It is in fact better -- no one is going to counter "vanilla who gets investigation benefits if boosted" if no such role exists. I am in fact a bit skeptical that any role has in it "you get X if boosted." My role does not, I can only speculate on what boosting does. I find it surprising that a role would explicitly state "if you get boosted X happens."

I'm going to theorize that there's three types of people in this town.

2)

People without roles - if they are boosted

, they acquire a night choice, or NK immunity, or gain some piece of information or something

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish.

I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town

(reworded, of course).

Note how she is claiming to speculate about how roles might work, whereas also claims that she has a role that explicitly says how it works. Note how she does not make a category for her type of role.

Her post seems like it very well could be a scum gambit. Her play otherwise has not been exceptional. I don't see her as my number one scum target, but I definitely do not support boosting her.

I would prefer boosting (myself obv.), and sth and ilord at this point.

unboost

if boosting;

boost: sth, boost: ilord

If anything is unclear please ask.

[Raging Rabbit]

OK, so I guess a better question is this:
Regardless of whether you agree with iLord's opinion, due you believe he sincerely holds that opinion (even if he is wrong)?

If he's town yes, if he's scum most probably no. I believe his points contradicting each other combined with his contrived explanation for it makes him more likely to be dishonest (and therefore scum) than anyone else at this point.

Welcome, Guardian.

iLord and sth are linked. I find both town-like, but if either showed up scum I would drastically reevaluate the other.

I can see how a link implies one is likely guilty if the other one is, but not why you perceive it to imply one is pro town if the other one is unless you're thinking of some sort of mason conncetion, which I find unlikely. It looks to me and apparantly to sthar as well more like iLord is buddying up to him, if anything. I'd like you to explain your thinking here more thoroughly.

[Electra]

I'm going to theorize that there's three types of people in this town.

2)

People without roles - if they are boosted

, they acquire a night choice, or NK immunity, or gain some piece of information or something

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish.

I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town

(reworded, of course).

Note how she is claiming to speculate about how roles might work, whereas also claims that she has a role that explicitly says how it works. Note how she does not make a category for her type of role.

What are you talking about? Obviously category two is the category for my role. My speculation is based on my guesses about the game as well as the role that I have. It doesn't explicitly say what information I get only that I get information.

I would prefer boosting (myself obv.), and sth and ilord at this point.

unboost

if boosting;

boost: sth, boost: ilord

If anything is unclear please ask.

FOS

for the very quick boosts.

I know that I at least am being very careful about boosting people, and that before final boosts, I plan to reread the thread and decide which people are the least likely to be scum. The only thing Guardian says about iLord and sthar is that they are linked and he finds both to be town. Why on earth would there be any members of the town who are linked? He seems very careless with his boosts compared to the rest of the town.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

I think genuine frustration can certainly be a town-tell depending on the circumstances. To me, springlullaby didn't seem frustrated though. I mean, I can't even think of a reason why she'd be frustrated when she had no real pressure placed on her, and I don't think anyone was really provoking her to such a degree where she'd become frustrated. Instead, she began resorting to personal insults and flaming, which I actually think is more likely to come from scum than town.

Also, aside from that, I'd really like for you to read this comment from another game made by Battle Mage who was referencing his meta-experience with springlullaby: BM in Nice Shot! Mafia and here is the game he was referencing: Mini 561 - R-1000 Mafia. In Nice Shot! Mafia, BM specifically mentions that she came off as extremely aggressive towards him in Mini 561 where she was the Mafia GF pushing for his lynch (you can read through the game on your own if you'd like. BM was correct). BM ended up switching his vote to springlullaby in Nice Shot! and was 100% correct about her being scum in that game. So no, I think springlullaby's overly aggressive, pissed off behavior can certainly come from a scum her, and I still think she's scum in this game.

Really?

I'll look at that link later, but if SL is known to fake anger, then that would drastically make me reevaluate my read of her.

A few of iLord's questions and comments on RR look to me like he is drawing conclusions without looking carefully enough at the information. For now, just a
FoS: iLord

Um, that's not a scumtell.

If you really thought I was trying to back away from your original point, you'd be pushing that more and the stuff I brought up to "distract from it" less. However, your original point isn't convincing at all and your case is dependant on moving discussion to other matters, which proves your above quote contrived as well.

My original point was that your push was scummy because the action wasn't scummy.

You said you were pushing for the guilt.

I said that guilt wasn't scummy.

That was how the main argument evolved - it's gotten dropped somewhere along the line.

I was attacking you for backing off the above point - I'm pushing mutliple other lines of attack because apparently my case against you isn't convincing anyone, mostly because I'm losing this argument fairly badly.

@The Rest of the Town: Do you think Guilt is indictive of scum?

This question is still loaded, as well as irrelevant. There's more than one possible reaction for "a townie", the best one being to say so and unvote.

And what would scum do once they realized that they were pushing a weak point?

Contradiction in this game is a subjective term. I have strong doubts about your alignment, so taking everything you say at face value would be a severe mistake. Saying that everyone should the accept the "it's not a contradiction because I say so" statement is completely false.

Normally, of course, you can't just take my word for it. However, the crux of your contradiction point is based on my definition of each of the backing-offs. Therefore, you have to judge not whether or not you agree with my definitons, but whether or not I genuinely feel that way, which is not what you have been.

Precisely because the poor points can give insight into the motivation behind making the case - is it to scumhunt, or to get an easy mislynch?
The consequence of your suggestion is that if a player who has claimed to be scum made some "good points" we should take them seriously as the bad points (ie, they are confirmed scum) do not cancel out the good points...

EXACTLY! First of all, motivation does not decrease the value of the points. Second of all, if a confirmed scum gave us good suggestions, and we found those suggestions valid, then why wouldn't we follow them?

I was actually about to use this example.

I really don't think it is genuine.
I also really don't think you are in a position to make such definite, sweeping statements about all townies and all scum.

I am not convinced by iLord's idea that RR's "backing off" was due to iLords pressure AND is indicative of scum.

Anyone is in a position to say anything and not have the magnitude of the point affected in the slightest.

Weird switch to third-person there.

OK, so I guess a better question is this:
Regardless of whether you agree with iLord's opinion, due you believe he sincerely holds that opinion (even if he is wrong)?

Not to sound condescending, but good job! You said basically what I was trying to say.

Unfortunately, you said it before I did, which you shouldn't have.

1. He continually pushed RR to back off from his attack on me (Do I need defending? How are you so sure of my alignment?), but once RR admitted that his read has changed, iLord started pushing him for changing his mind. While it would be reasonable to continue pushing based on your original points, attacking someone for cooperating seems really odd.

Cooperating is something any alignment can do.

2. I really didn't like how he attempted to discredit Electra's opinions with an ad hominem attack aimed at her experience. I especially didn't like how vague he was in describing these tells, combined with his remarks to RR, Electra and Incog about how tells cannot be blindly and uniformly applied.

They were vague, and I can't really explain it, but a lot of Electra's overview posts give me huge newb reads.

If he's town yes, if he's scum most probably no. I believe his points contradicting each other combined with his contrived explanation for it makes him more likely to be dishonest (and therefore scum) than anyone else at this point.

Ah, so you don't believe me.

Then what more could I say? I've shown how it is not based on my definiton. You don't really believe I hold those definitions. It's for the rest of the town to judge.

[Guardian]

Welcome, Guardian.

iLord and sth are linked. I find both town-like, but if either showed up scum I would drastically reevaluate the other.

I can see how a link implies one is likely guilty if the other one is, but not why you perceive it to imply one is pro town if the other one is unless you're thinking of some sort of mason conncetion, which I find unlikely. It looks to me and apparantly to sthar as well more like iLord is buddying up to him, if anything. I'd like you to explain your thinking here more thoroughly.

I find them townlike independently, and if they are town, as my current read is, then their apparent link is actually coincidental. However, if either of them are scum, I would be more interested in the other, since they do appear linked.

Electra:
You say you are theorizing about people who have roles. Why would you think there are other people who are vanilla but whose roles don't say anything about boosting? If there are such people, would they be in the same category as your role? Why do you think your role fits into the category of "does not have a role"?

About boosting -- I don't really see why everyone has been so cautious to boost. To me it makes sense to boost those who you find most likely to be town, the only important thing is to not get to a boosting majority too early. It is just like voting -- there is no reason to be cautious with voting unless someone is near a majority, I see no reason to be cautious with boosting unless someone is near a majority. Is there a reason you disagree with that?

[Guardian]

I don't think sth's feeling bad that he did something that annoys him when others do it is indicative of him being scum.

ilord, why do half or more than half of your posts start with "asdfasdf"?

[iLord]

About boosting -- I don't really see why everyone has been so cautious to boost. To me it makes sense to boost those who you find most likely to be town, the only important thing is to not get to a boosting majority too early. It is just like voting -- there is no reason to be cautious with voting unless someone is near a majority, I see no reason to be cautious with boosting unless someone is near a majority. Is there a reason you disagree with that?

Contracting my previous belief about boosting, the comparison between Voting and Boosting majority is good - in normal games, we aren't afraid of voting.

I'm going to look over the game for a sec and find who I want to boost.

ilord, why do half or more than half of your posts start with "asdfasdf"?

To get to the preview screen, where I type most of my posts.

[iLord]

I would boost Electra and sthar8, but since Electra's refraining at B-1, I'll boost my next choice.

Boost: sthar8

Boost: springlullaby

[iLord]

I mean:

Boost: Guardian

[sthar8]

Cooperating is something any alignment can do.

Exactly. So why attack him for it?

They were vague, and I can't really explain it, but a lot of Electra's overview posts give me huge newb reads.

But why bring that up, if not to discredit her opinions? It's not like how new she is to the game will affect how likely we are to lynch her.

Guardian:

eldarad and incognito are linked.

I'm interested. Can you elaborate?

I don't really see why everyone has been so cautious to boost.

My caution, at least, has been from a desire to see that no one achieves a boost majority too quickly. I felt that it was best to be more cautious earlier, since some players might not attach the same significance to boosting as to voting, and might not be as careful as they would if the action was likely to result in a death. For the record, I'd be comfortable picking our boosts and lynching Crazy at this point, though we should probably give his replacement a chance to defend himself first.

Elmo: can we get a boost/vote count please?

[iLord]

Exactly. So why attack him for it?

You misunderstand what my point was – my point was that cooperation does not make a player more town. I was reading him as more scum because of his sudden cooperation in response to my vote – I’m still pushing for him to elaborate on his reasoning there. Which reminds me:

@RR: Could you please explain how the massclaim stuff made Sthar8 look more town? You state that you mentioned it, but I can’t seem to find it.

But why bring that up, if not to discredit her opinions? It's not like how new she is to the game will affect how likely we are to lynch her.

I don’t believe I’ve discredited her opinions. I just haven’t found them noteworthy.

[Electra]

Electra:
You say you are theorizing about people who have roles. Why would you think there are other people who are vanilla but whose roles don't say anything about boosting? If there are such people, would they be in the same category as your role? Why do you think your role fits into the category of "does not have a role"?

Post 2 says there's at least one vanilla townie PM.

Since I don't have any role unless boosted, I am essentially a vanilla. It's your discretion whether you want to separate categories of knowing somewhat what happens and not knowing at all.

About boosting -- I don't really see why everyone has been so cautious to boost. To me it makes sense to boost those who you find most likely to be town, the only important thing is to not get to a boosting majority too early. It is just like voting -- there is no reason to be cautious with voting unless someone is near a majority, I see no reason to be cautious with boosting unless someone is near a majority. Is there a reason you disagree with that?

There's a difference in that throwing around boosts doesn't really do anything. If you put a vote on a person, then it's like putting pressure on them. What exactly does boosting someone do? If votes were kept secret, indicating that the person voted was not affected in any way, I certainly would wait til the end to vote.

@ iLord - Why do you think Guardian is #2 or #3 most likely to be town?

[Raging Rabbit]

I was attacking you for backing off the above point - I'm pushing mutliple other lines of attack because apparently my case against you isn't convincing anyone, mostly because I'm losing this argument fairly badly.

Well, attacking me for backing off a point while backing off said point yourself to sound more convincing doesn't sit well with me.

What do you mean by "losing the argument"? Did your read on me change in any way or are you just "losing" because of lack of popular support?

And what would scum do once they realized that they were pushing a weak point?

I wish things were this simple. There isn't one scum course of action, it depends on a multidute of factors that are very hard to define and evaluate. The main difference is that from a scum viewpoint, it doesn't matter whether you believe your point is strong or not , but rather if that point succeeds in making you good and townies look bad.

Normally, of course, you can't just take my word for it. However, the crux of your contradiction point is based on my definition of each of the backing-offs. Therefore, you have to judge not whether or not you agree with my definitons, but whether or not I genuinely feel that way, which is not what you have been.

Ah, so you don't believe me.

Then what more could I say? I've shown how it is not based on my definiton. You don't really believe I hold those definitions. It's for the rest of the town to judge.

Turning this into a matter of not believing you is a nice twist, but every contradiction in this game can be explained by "from my point of view, the two don't contradict" which creates the same "trust" dillema. The only way I have to determine whether I believe you is according to how convincing your explanation for why your points don't contradict each other is, and since that explanation (two - now possibly three - very similar backing offs being "inherently different" and giving you completely opposite reads in a way that just happens to correlate with your case for me being scum) is imo completely unconvincing, your case appears contrived to me and I "don't believe you". Therefore this totally

is

a matter of how convincing your definitions are, since that is the only way I have really to determine if I believe you hold them.

@RR: Could you please explain how the massclaim stuff made Sthar8 look more town? You state that you mentioned it, but I can’t seem to find it.

I can’t seem to recall or find where you explained your reasoning behind the MC speculation. Could you repeat it?

The massclaim speculation isn't a good move for scum because it draws attention to them and their roles, and makes any convincing fakeclaims they may have ready not as good since the town sees how insistent they were on claiming it. Also the way he chose to phrase his offer it feels very pro town in hindsight.

Guardian - why do you find iLord independantly pro town?

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #9 - Lynching

Crazy (3) <- Mana_Ku, sthar8, Electra
iLord (2) <- Raging Rabbit, eldarad
Mana_Ku (2) <- TDC, Crazy
Raging Rabbit <- iLord
Incognito <- Guardian
Guardian <- Incognito

Not voting: fuzzylightning, Jahudo.

Boost Count

Electra (5) <- eldarad, Raging Rabbit, TDC, Jahudo, fuzzylightning
Guardian <- Jahudo, iLord
Incognito <- Mana_Ku
eldarad <- TDC
Jahudo <- eldarad
sthar8 <- Guardian, iLord
iLord <- Guardian

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch/boost.

[TDC]

Incognito: I have sifted through the two games of sl you mentioned (and a few more of her). I can see the parallel with R-1000, but I don't really see it with Nice Shot. The other games (town and scum) where fairly clean (and lurky) from her. I would have a better feeling about this meta read if there was more data (or if I understood where you think Nice Shot is comparable with this game, could you elaborate?)

---

Guardian: I know you aren't sl, but would you address this anyway? Seems odd she would replace out just when Incognito brought that up.

I am unsure what to make of Electra. Honestly I do think her post would be easy for scum to do, and if there are no vanilla roles like Electra claimed to have -- that is not a problem. It is in fact better -- no one is going to counter "vanilla who gets investigation benefits if boosted" if no such role exists. I am in fact a bit skeptical that any role has in it "you get X if boosted." My role does not, I can only speculate on what boosting does. I find it surprising that a role would explicitly state "if you get boosted X happens."

I get sick of repeating this all the time, but Electra never claimed to have "investigation benefits". I understand her claim as passive "the mod will give me some information" thing.
I also disagree that if Electra turns out to be the only claimed vanilla that knows what boosting her does, she would be in a better position.
In fact, if you look at the first page of this game, there's at least one post that suggests that she is not the only one.
I also think it's quite obvious that when Electra says "people with roles" she means people that can do something

without being boosted.

---

I think more people need to say if they think Incog was playing the agitator on SL.

No.

---

Do you think Guilt is indictive of scum?

No. I don't think RR probing sthar on it is that indicative either, though. (And as far as I can tell, that's all your case on him ever was, I don't get where you're getting at with the backing off thing.)

[Incognito]

I'm being waaaaaaaaaaay too wordy for a Day 1.

Eldarad's seems more solid

[compared to Incog's]

, but mostly I'm just happy to see you gathering votes.

Note: I've added supplementary text in orange.

This wasn't directed to me, but I still feel like I owe a response to this just so it's crystal clear as to why I voted for iLord.

1)

I still feel like iLord's reads in his 21st post look really contrived. Reasoning:

• a)
  I can't see how he can list me as his second scummiest read but then use a point I brought up with respect to fuzzylightning to determine he's third towniest. He's tried to explain this a number of times, but I really don't buy the explanation.
  
  b)
  Despite what me mentioned about his towniest to scummiest list not being as etched in stone as it looks, he still created one, and I still have a hard time determining how he was able to place people like fuzzylightning, Crazy, TDC, and Jahudo who had not really contributed much at the time in such a rigid order.
  
  c)
  His points are inconsistent. He didn't like Raging Rabbit because he mentioned that RR kept pushing the same weak point over and over again (Raging Rabbit responded to this well mentioning that he was repeatedly
  asked
  to clarify this point and that's why he kept mentioning it), but he listed springlullaby as one of his towniest despite the fact that iLord
  conceded
  that SL's points against me were mostly weak. There's a discrepancy there.

2)

I didn't like iLord's coaching of springlullaby, and his goading of our argument from the sidelines. I can think of no pro-town reason for a player who supposedly doesn't know another player's alignment to coach another player on how to attack someone. I look at coaching as a major scum tell because I think the only way you can coach someone in a game of Mafia is if you have inside knowledge about the coached player's alignment (whether it be town or scum).

3)

His initial opinion about Electra's claim (in which he even went so far as to vote eldarad for siding with Electra) dramatically changed from his current opinion (in which he mentions that he basically agreed with the points the person he

previously voted for

for accepting her claim so readily brought up).

The last point is probably a more minor one because I do realize that pro-town players can certainly change their opinions as a game progresses, but I think points 1 and 2 are pretty bad on their own, and I didn't like his defenses to them.

Really?

I'll look at that link later, but if SL is known to fake anger, then that would drastically make me reevaluate my read of her.

I would boost Electra and sthar8, but since Electra's refraining at B-1, I'll boost my next choice.

Boost: sthar8

Boost: springlullaby

Damn, that must have been a quick read. What did you think of those links?

---

Now, onto Guardian.

Incognito's whole attack on SL looks like a long drawn out OMGUS and much more like the latter (pretend scum hunting) rather than the former (real scum hunting).

This OMGUS argument isn't gonna cut it. I mentioned in my 117 that one of the main reasons I was voting for springlullaby was because something about her attack felt off. At the time, I couldn't quite articulate as well as I could have what it was that felt off about it but after looking through MD, I found the phrase that I was looking for. I really think springlullaby's attack against me was

preemptive OMGUS

, which I think is a very little known but highly potent scum tell. What do I mean by this? Let's look at how things happened in temporal order early in the game:

springlullaby began with this:

Boost electra

I think her post comes from a townie.

What skillet said seems superficial but on second thought I think it makes a good point, it's good to keep in mind that mafia may have abilities that are independent from boost to avoid reasonings based on wrong basis - ie: "X can't be responsible of action XXXX because X hasn't been boosted".

I don't like TDC's vote on him.

VOTE:TDC

I didn't like this post because her reasoning for boosting Electra seemed very vague and just seemed to be following the popular opinion about her, and her reasoning for voting TDC seemed equally as vague as well. So I questioned her on what it was I didn't like about this post:

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Why do you think Electra's post comes from a townie? Also, can you explain in a bit more detail why you don't like TDC's vote on Skillit?

...to which she responded with her 81 in which she both answered my questions and then chose to unleash her attack against me for the remainder of her time in the game. So you see, I don't think your argument that my vote on her was "a long drawn out OMGUS" holds any weight because if you look at things in temporal order, you'd notice that my suspicion of her came

before

her suspicion of me ever came about. I feel like when a pro-scum player realizes or sees a pro-town player putting together some points about him or her, he or she uses preemptive OMGUS to make it seem like his or her attack came first and then the pro-town player's vote came next. Looking at things in the correct order shows how invalid your accusation of me actually is. Further, even if you were correct about my attack on her being OMGUS, I'm surprised that

you

of all people (the king of OMGUS regardless of your alignment) would actually use that as a point against me. Humorous really.

eldarad and incognito are linked.

sthar8 has already requested for this, but I too would like for you to elaborate on this please.

Also, I really don't understand how you could mention the following about sthar8/iLord:

iLord and sth are linked. I find both town-like, but if either showed up scum I would drastically reevaluate the other.

but then choose to boost the both of them at the same time. I mean, yes, you did mention that you found both to be town-like, but you also snuck in the possibility that if one comes up scum, you'd closely scrutinize the other, which indicates that you're at least partially worried about them being scum with one another. Why would you boost two people who you think could have a scum linkage with one another?

If you really want linkage, I think springlullaby (now Guardian) and iLord have a close linkage due to their reciprocal double standardization throughout the thread. I mentioned this previously here:

Huh, I'm very tempted to respond flippantly but I'll be reasonable and simply note that what you are doing here is trying to reduce the entire case I have posted against you to one little puny point.

That's not what I'm trying to do at all.

A major point of contention between us was your whole "Incog is

appealing

to eldarad's Electra-read to form his own read of her", and I'm pointing out here that iLord did it twice, but you made no mention of it at all and have adamantly stated that you think iLord is town. In fact, I'd think you'd consider his to be even worse since he specifically "appealed" to someone who he had as his second scummiest read along his list (me) while I "appealed" to someone who I thought was town. Also, eldarad pointed out that Crazy was an even bigger offender of doing this than I was here:

Massive QFT to everything that eldarad has said so far.

...but again you made no mention of this. I'm just trying to figure out why you're being so inconsistent.

and I feel like iLord's point that he used against Raging Rabbit to determine he's scum (about pushing the same weak point over and over again) that he didn't equally apply to springlullaby to determine she's town (pushing multiple weak points over and over again) is also a double standard that I find to be very suspect. And since I'm equally suspicious of both of you, your linkage and boosting of sthar8 and iLord almost looks like you know sthar8 is town and you're trying to sneak a boost in for your scum buddy by coupling it with the boost of a town player.

Just so it's clear as crystal, I'd be very cool with an iLord or Guardian lynch for today.

---

Incognito: I have sifted through the two games of sl you mentioned (and a few more of her). I can see the parallel with R-1000, but I don't really see it with Nice Shot. The other games (town and scum) where fairly clean (and lurky) from her. I would have a better feeling about this meta read if there was more data (or if I understood where you think Nice Shot is comparable with this game, could you elaborate?)

Good catch.

I didn't bring up the Nice Shot! to draw a comparison between her play here and her play there because I agree with what you say about her play seeming different there from her play here. If I wasn't clear, I referenced Nice Shot! purely for Battle Mage's comment about her since he claimed to have meta-experience with her. I think R-1000 like you mentioned draws a nicer parallel with her play in this game, yes, and that's why I linked that game.

As for her posting rate, I think her posting rate here better matched her posting rate in her scum games. She was posting here at a rate of about 1 post every 3 days, which, if you look at her past scum games seems about right for her. In her town games, she seems to post at least once per day excluding weekends where her posting does seem to decline regardless of her alignment.

Boost: TDC

His posts are sometimes far in between, but they're to the point and seem pro-town to me especially this most recent post where he's taken the time to meta-game, which I think is more likely to be done by town rather than scum.