Cosmos Mafia (Dawn 1)

[Toogeloo]

It isn't a scumclaim.
It isn't impossible for PPF to Town Ascetic or if we got blocked.
The Loyal modifier doesn't make PPF scum unless it can be proven that the above was false.
-Rubella

Shouldn't the most obvious solution be pursued first?

[Past Present Future]

He's likely blocked then. I can't see MMR lying here, but it is what it is.

~Titus

[Past Present Future]

We are not ascetic.

~Titus

[MathBlade]

Can you give reads Titus?

I’d like to see you drive.

If you are scum, then it lends credence to my reads before Mastina pushed me being accurate
And if you’re town MMR likely is scum which lends credence to my reads after reset.

I’d really like to see you talk.

[Toogeloo]

Loyals are typically blocked when they target opposite alignment though. This seems like the most obvious answer, doesn't it?

VOTE: PPF

Occam's Razor

[Past Present Future]

Can you give reads Titus?

I’d like to see you drive.

If you are scum, then it lends credence to my reads before Mastina pushed me being accurate
And if you’re town MMR likely is scum which lends credence to my reads after reset.

I’d really like to see you talk.

Nancy and I can put together a reads list tonight. I get you'd like to see me talk but it's hard to put together even a haphazard VCA over the lunch hour.

~Titus

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: MMR

Hypothetically possible you were blocked, but in that case why claim at all?

[Radical Rat]

If you're not sure your check went through, and you townread the target enough to discard the maybe-guilty on those grounds, why wouldn't you just try again later before claiming?

[unwnd]

RR why are you voting with mastina despite believing she was scum D1

[T-Bone]

If you're not sure your check went through, and you townread the target enough to discard the maybe-guilty on those grounds, why wouldn't you just try again later before claiming?

What is this nonsense?

[MathBlade]

If you're not sure your check went through, and you townread the target enough to discard the maybe-guilty on those grounds, why wouldn't you just try again later before claiming?

What is this nonsense?

I am kinda getting scared that D1 I had majority of the scum team
It explains Professor dying
It explains Ascetic on PPF
It explains Mastina and RR voting the cop instead of the guilty. (I know claimed Neo it’s more a phrase)

Is my paranoia valid?

[Past Present Future]

If you're not sure your check went through, and you townread the target enough to discard the maybe-guilty on those grounds, why wouldn't you just try again later before claiming?

What is this nonsense?

I am kinda getting scared that D1 I had majority of the scum team
It explains Professor dying
It explains Ascetic on PPF
It explains Mastina and RR voting the cop instead of the guilty. (I know claimed Neo it’s more a phrase)

Is my paranoia valid?

I mean it could be MMR lying or blocked and RR and/or mastina know it. Our play has largely been town and accurate.

~Titus

[MathBlade]

MMR lying = scum NK or I dayvig

I doubt the lying option.

I don’t see why scum block scumread MMR.

Like all roads lead to you scum as the most probable.

[T-Bone]

I don't believe in leaving night action claims hanging around, they have to be resolved with an elimination.

[Past Present Future]

MMR lying = scum NK or I dayvig

I doubt the lying option.

I don’t see why scum block scumread MMR.

Like all roads lead to you scum as the most probable.

True, which means townreads on us don't make much sense unless they know we're town. So consider it please.

If you reject it after our readwall, it is what it is.

~Titus

[MathBlade]

I don't believe in leaving night action claims hanging around, they have to be resolved with an elimination.

Me neither.

Hence why I want PPF to talk some because then if they’re town we get good idea where reads are
If they’re scum we get spew. Granted it’s planned spew but it’s something either way

Hence me not voting PPF but I am in spirit.

[mastina]

Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???

...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR

Can you explain here please?

I don’t see how you get here.

Well, it's both mechanics and play.

Play can be chalked up to mistake from ONE player, but from THREE players, ESPECIALLY mechanics-oriented players, it is so borderline unacceptable that it is genuinely an instant elimination.

Let's start with the Neapolitan half. A Neapolitan is at its strongest by targeting VTs, to generate hard-innocents. And since we have VTs in the game per the D1 flip, that means that MMR would know that they should try to get innocent results.

The D1 elimination proved that there are VTs, but you know what also happened just before the elimination?

...Not one, but TWO different players effectively hard-townslipped a claim which essentially hinted at being VTs.
Scarfmanship spelled this out the night I claimed, that T-Bone and Enchant believing that their role PMs gave no hint to alignment basically hard-spewed them as VTs.

A Neapolitan, with not one but TWO players that essentially accidentally hardclaimed VT, chose to investigate NEITHER if them???

I can get some random player making that mistake.
But Ircher is, infamously, a mechanics-oriented player. Do you think Ircher with a Neapolitan sees two players who basically hardclaimed VT and decides to investigate neither of them?

RH9 from my understanding is ALSO mechanics-oriented. I've never actually played with him to verify, but seeing how he's literally THE most prolific user in mafia discussion, discussing the mechanics of roles, I'm pretty damn certain that he is a mechanics-oriented player, and I don’t buy him making the Mistake, either.

Roden is the only one who could, but even TODEN is no slouch mechanically.

And you want to tell me that not one, not two, but THREE different holders of the role which is mechanics oriented made a night action choice that is woefully suboptimal?

It's beyond improbable.

It's not like Neapolitan is a gimmicky role. It's one of the most common Normal Game roles in existence. So all three of them should know the basic theory of the value of a hard-innocent.


Beyond that? PPF was town enough to be a nightkill option--you don’t try to target players who could be the nightkill, you specifically try to target those who will not be. This doesn’t contradict the above, either since neither T-Bone nor Enchant were likely nightkills ESPECIALLY given being vanilla. Even if they thought ONE VT would be nightkilled, they would know at least one would live--and let's be real, mo scum kills Enchant ever. So they could safely target Enchant.

PPF was more town than scum yesterday.
So being so, which alignment has more reason to effectively rolecop them? (Neapolitan is a hybrid between Cop and Rolecop.)
It ain't town.

Scum had more reasons to rolecop PPF than town did.

AND INE MORE THING--MathBlade was a PR claim, but why not target Dingle Dangle Scarecrow? MY being unable to target either makes sense (it'd potentially hard-clear them), but MMR's role has no such justification--why not check DDS???

This all is play. You can attempt to write it off as a display of absolute sheer incompetence if you'd like, a collective brain shutdown from all three players who should know better. (Roden literally got mislimmed in part thanks to targeting a PPF like player N1. So to make the same sort of mistake twice is even less likely.)

But then we get into the actual role part.

Namely, how the two halves are highly redundant.
ANY result that is successful is an automatic innocent, thanks to Loyal.
Neapolitan is a role which generates innocents in of itself, by targeting VTs.
By stacking the two, it becomes effectively a more powerful cop, NOT ONLY learning if someone is town, BUT ALSO if they're a VT or a PR.
If it were just Neapolitan I'd believe it.
If it were just Loyal with a confirming result of literally any sort, I would believe it. (Checker, Motion Detector, etc. Literally any role which gets feedback at the end of a night, which is not already innately one of the strongest investigative roles in the game the way Neapolitan is.)

Beyond all that?

I don’t believe that the town has a Loyal Neapolitan ON TOP OF the revealing mechanic shown at the end of D1 ON TOP OF my role, which theirs is basically a stronger version of.

My role just checks for attunement, which is a possible indicator of alignment and potentially reveals role or VTs;
Theirs gets outright confirmation of alignment AND role. They're literally claiming a stronger version of my role, which was even able to act a night sooner than me! (BTW free piece of NRG advice: the NRG tends to balance odd/even night roles by putting the weaker one FIRST, not second. Not always, but as a way to keep the power down.)

And then there are two other reasons for why I think that's a mechical scumclaim, but I'll finish with a final non-mechanics one:
I don’t buy MMR being blocked by scum;
I don’t buy PPF being an unclaimed ascetic;
MMR were in the PoE already for scum;
PPF are town enough to be basically conftown.
If they're trying to force a noncommittal guilty where after PPF flip town they go "Oh I guess we were roleblocked", well, I call bullshit. So, because PPF is never scum here, if there WAS a 1v1, by default, MMR would be the scum within.

And to reiterate, I have two extra mechanics reasons for doubting the claim beyond what I've shared.
Maybe a play reason or two, too.

[mastina]

RR why are you voting with mastina despite believing she was scum D1

I admit I'm not fond of RR's presence on MMR, but given the choice between a wagon on the towniest slot in the game,
Versus a wagon on a slot that made a claim of a mechanics-oriented role that if they were honest they MASSIVELY fucked up on in spite of being mechanics-oriented players whose role I believe is mechanically not real in multiple ways and who was already in the PoE for scum.

I ain't voting for the towniest slot in the game, that's for sure.

And if absolutely need be, I can out the mechanics reasons I'm holding back on, but I believe that MB in particular can figure it out without my help if my Suspicion is correct.

[Past Present Future]

I think both reactions suck.
MMR’s lack of vote is suspicious
3121 from PPR is suspicious because rolestoppers don’t get results. Titus and Nancy who both know mechanics

I have to work and expect it to be a long day so lurker me ahead.

Remember to get those heal tags in (but don’t derail conversation) about who you’d like vigged.

@Math, it’s seriously mind blowing how you do not know anything about my meta.

[MathBlade]

RR why are you voting with mastina despite believing she was scum D1

I admit I'm not fond of RR's presence on MMR, but given the choice between a wagon on the towniest slot in the game,
Versus a wagon on a slot that made a claim of a mechanics-oriented role that if they were honest they MASSIVELY fucked up on in spite of being mechanics-oriented players whose role I believe is mechanically not real in multiple ways and who was already in the PoE for scum.

I ain't voting for the towniest slot in the game, that's for sure.

And if absolutely need be, I can out the mechanics reasons I'm holding back on, but I believe that MB in particular can figure it out without my help if my Suspicion is correct.

I am working right now and honestly that’s too much to digest at work.

Although I am kinda not seeing a mech reason to hold back here.

I will read that late tonight and see if anything changes my mind but I doubt it.

[Yume]

VOTE: MMR

I read mastina's reasoning and I agree with it.

[Yume]

And now I will watch people go 'Yume is scum with PPF and mastina'. *pops a bottle of champagne*

[Past Present Future]

MMR’s claimed target doesn’t make sense either.

Can you explain why PPF?

Mumps and Measles wanted to investigate PPF after it was confirmed that your role was related to the scum.
Don't ask me about why they decided to do that.
-Rubella

I would seriously like to know this because neither an rs or an invest on us from your slot makes a ton of sense? Why would you either rs an unclaimed slot or invest/reaction test a tr of yours?

[Past Present Future]

Oh so the scumclaim of a role was an actual scumclaim not a Troll, reaction test, or joke???

...WELL THEN.
VOTE: MMR

I totally don’t understand what’s going on with that slot and I’m really hoping to get some answers.

[Radical Rat]

RR why are you voting with mastina despite believing she was scum D1

Because it's multiball and scum will sometimes vote scum.