Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Jahudo]

Back from vacation. I've got time now and will catchup.

[iLord]

A look at some of Jahudo's posts:

-----------------------------------------------------

I am against claiming and Electra basically stated the reasons against it. Scum will know what the boosted people can do and how best to approach them at night. I think we should go about things normally.

If someone thinks they should or should not be boosted they can say that before the lynch, but no specifics. It should be a combination of the candidate thinking they have a useful power and the group thinking they're pro-town.

Jahudo’s first game-related post. Doesn’t comment on Electra, which is scummy.

At first I thought your response to Electra's setup possibilities was in joking because you talked about Mohinder and her wanting to be special. But you have a very thorough follow up so are you leaning to any serious conclusions on Electra yet? That is, do you think her claim and strategy look genuine or not? Are your feelings dependent on her only having 3 possibilities or is there something else there? Or was this part/mostly in joking?

Also it looks like everyone but fuzzylightning has posted. My random vote gains some weight, or does it?

Comments on other people’s views of Electra, but still doesn’t disclose his opinion.

You skipped me
Actually I didn't directly say you were town or scum for your claim, but you could be right about scum not being able to make a convincing lie that early. You're still a ways a way from a boost majority so I don't really see the hesitancy in some people to use their boost.

Boost Electra

Actually notes that he didn’t comment. Don’t like the way he said “you’re still a ways a way from a boost majority so I don’t really see the hesitancy in some people to use their boost.” Also don’t like the “could” and then the follow-up boost. Seems like a weak way to jump on the boostwagon.

I'm not sure what spring is trying to say with "8 out of 10 persons reserving judgment are scum...". If she said something like "I think people who reserve judgment are anti-town" it wouldn't sound like a baseless accusation.
I do like how she called you out for being passive aggressive, even if it isn't an accurate term to use. The reaction posts I saw of you did not look passive aggressive, so I think she succeeded in prodding you to gain a better read for us. At this early point in the game, I'm getting some town vibes from Incognito and I would from spring too if not for that 8 out of 10 thing which I think needs a further explanation.

He likes SL calling Incognito for being passive-aggressive even though he doesn’t believe Incognito’s passive aggressive because it prods Incognito and gives us a better read? Regardless of what the point did, I don’t get how anyone can like a point that they believe is incorrect.

This sound like a very serious list of tells. When Crazy votes for skillit, he mentions skillit's loaded question to Electra then skillit's claim that he didn't accuse her. Skillit's specific words were "imply any slant either way". Is a page 1 loaded question going to look serious and imply slant if you don't have a read on them? Does the initial accusation fail if it looks sarcastic joking to anyone?

In Post 135, Jahudo says that sthar8’s attack on Crazy looks like a very serious list of tells. I’m not really understanding what he’s saying here – it looks like a very conflicted post – he starts off with “serious list of tells” but then the rest of the paragraph seems to be for Crazy. Jahudo, could you explain here?

I don't find anything odd about the timing of the vote since Crazy was supposedly away and got prodded. I also don't think he just jumped on the largest wagon because I don't see him trying to push it without anything new to show for it. Maybe that's indicative of something else, though.

I really don’t like the “maybe that’s indicative of something else” clause – it allows a escape clause for him to resume his attack on Crazy if the wagon builds up. This seems to be generally for Crazy again.

I think it's okay to suspect people like he did for TDC and RR, by not saying anything just yet. To me, it seems he's not as serious because it's not outlined. But using it as a preemption back by other people is another thing.

He says that Crazy’s suspicions aren’t serious? Jahudo, could you explain what you meant by the preemption point?

I must've missed the part I bolded because now I understand the rationale for this reserving judgment accusation. And yes, "I think" makes it sound more opinionated than scientifically proven hypothesis, but it was the second paragraph that explains the 8 out of 10 argument for me.

I'm getting more of a town read from spring in post 129, but have a few comments/questions on what she said that I'll reserve until after incog comes back and releases his next response novel. Please let it be in paperback.

Notes that he has some comments on SL’s 129 - Comments that he never gives.

In the cases of the neutral reads, I've seen a mostly defensive skillet that hasn't been scum hunting enough, a TDC that isn't being very open with his opinions or train of thought, and a sthar that might have exaggerated suspicion on him so he's gone defensive too.

Note his opinion that sthar8’s suspicion is exaggerated.

That is interesting. I can think of several reasons why he could do this, both town and scum, but by calling attention to skillit at L-2 I think he's trying to pause any momentum while people step back and re-look at things.

He did ask alot of questions to Skillit and give him alot of attention early on, maybe the most out of any of us. Some of it was about the show Heroes and some was to get Skillit to explain his thinking, but nothing like an accusation. I can't find Incog's opinion from these posts though.

A tendency that has been shown and is exhibited here is Jahudo’s opinionless posts. Sure, he talks, but there’s too little scumhunting and opinions and a lot of talking. Unlike Electra’s posts, Jahudo’s seems cautious, as opposed to rambling.

I also need to reevaluate my position on iLord and RR because the more I see from RR, the more I think his case against him was inflated. I don't think this necessarily makes iLord or anyone look scummy for questioning RR's motive on voting sthar, but I guess RR was asked things enough to make his case larger when he was only pushing it a little bit.

These are the sort of nonconfrontational posts that build my suspicion. He is starting to see RR town, but this doesn’t “necessarily makes iLord or anyone look scummy for questioning.” He’s avoiding putting suspicion on anyone.

A few of iLord's questions and comments on RR look to me like he is drawing conclusions without looking carefully enough at the information. For now, just a
FoS: iLord

Even his attack isn’t even calling my scum – only calling my conclusions invalid.

Boost: Raging Rabbit
I like his recent posting. He's scumhunting but not focusing too heavily on one person or one point, but it looks like he's paying attention to alot of the dynamics going on.

As noted by many, this boost is weak – his reasoning doesn’t apply at all.

I think he’s leaning town now. In my earlier read, I thought he was repeating the same point on sthar to continue the case, but now I don’t see his intention from that as trying to keep the case alive but to explain it to certain people. There are a few others I might boost because I think they’re town, like eldarad or Guardian, but I don’t think they’ve posted enough.

This was explaining the above Boost. He completely ignores RR’s recent focus and doesn’t explain how RR is paying attention to a lot of the dynamics.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Overall, there's less here than I would like. Mostly my reasoning behind a Jahudo lynch is that his posts are filled with a lot of talking and not a lot of scumhunting. In addition to this, it is evident that he is making an effort to avoid confrontation - only voting for Incognito, and then backing-up quickly when his point was proven incorrect. His recent boost for RR reads as very "contrived"() and lacks reasoning to back it.

[eldarad]

Checking in.

Grr. I'm halfway through writing a post and iLord goes and adds more stuff to the thread...

[sthar8]

are you still happy with your vote on Huntress (Crazy)? What's your opinion on the Guardian/Incog cases now that you can read them in one handy post?

Oh, yeah. Nothing Huntress has done has contradicted my read on Crazy, and her lack of contribution is making my theory look really good.

As for Incog/Guardian, I think that the case reads as too sincere on both sides for them both to be scum. They are each trying too hard to see the other dead in the absence of any real danger to either of them for this to be a good example of bussing or distancing.

I could definitely see one of them being scum, but the major points that each side is convinced are proof of scum strike me as plausible and likely reactions to the situation. Incog does have a good and (possibly) valid point about guardian's "dirty" reads, but guardian has a good and (possibly) valid point about Incog's provocative behavior. I'm really not comfortable lynching either of them today.

I could also see either one as iLord's buddy.

Top suspects are now Huntress, iLord. Yes, I've removed the third spot. RR's recent actions are giving me a perspective that makes his previous ones appear less scummy. I'm trying to decide who is the next most suspicious.

[Jahudo]

I remarked that I saw him as hedging... I think it was from when he asked people's opinions about me-Incog before he expressed his own opinion.

Is hedging “asking people’s opinions before expression own opinion”? I was not doing that when you first entered the game: post 337
In post 317 you felt people were not expressing their own opinion on you-Incog so what have you seen from others that differs?

He likes SL calling Incognito for being passive-aggressive even though he doesn’t believe Incognito’s passive aggressive because it prods Incognito and gives us a better read? Regardless of what the point did, I don’t get how anyone can like a point that they believe is incorrect.

What I liked about it was that she was bringing thing up and it was an opportunity to get a better read. I thought she was pro-town for making the attempt but I had yet to see how her argument was accurate or not.

In Post 135, Jahudo says that sthar8’s attack on Crazy looks like a very serious list of tells. I’m not really understanding what he’s saying here – it looks like a very conflicted post – he starts off with “serious list of tells” but then the rest of the paragraph seems to be for Crazy. Jahudo, could you explain here?

The tells being accused were (in so many words): Crazy wasn’t interested in the game, he suspected people without providing reason, tries to force a scum pair, and buddies up to someone else. That is how I interpreted sthar8’s post 119 because he actually said them differently and I continued my post by looking into them for other conclusions.

I really don’t like the “maybe that’s indicative of something else” clause – it allows a escape clause for him to resume his attack on Crazy if the wagon builds up. This seems to be generally for Crazy again.

You misinterpreted that. I said that Crazy’s vote did not look untimely or forcing the wagon because he was using a new point: that Skillit was backtracking. I was thinking that it was indicative that Skillit looked scummy despite Crazy’s way of suspecting people.

He says that Crazy’s suspicions aren’t serious? Jahudo, could you explain what you meant by the preemption point?

He wasn’t saying why those people were suspicious so they shouldn’t start looking more scummy just because he’s saying it. But if those people actually did something suspicious later on, Crazy could join the wagon much easier.

Unlike Electra’s posts, Jahudo’s seems cautious, as opposed to rambling.

I don’t tend to clutter with opinions that I don’t have much confidence in and this game has been difficult to understand so I have a lot of unconfident opinions. I have shared who I think is town and scum through votes and some posts, such as finding RR to be town which despite what people are trying to tell me, I still believe is logical.

doesn’t explain how RR is paying attention to a lot of the dynamics.

Here’s why I am boost voting him:

• Activity: Not just filling up space with summary or over-extending into theory or even referring to other games that deter from the game at hand, but making an effort of acknowledging and responding to various threads of discussion.

• Focus: I do not think it is a scum tell that one person focuses extensively on one person. That is just how some people play but I think that he is bringing up points that show he is paying attention to what has already happened, not just recent material or the first few pages of the game.

Now, those points are not exclusive to RR so I also think that iLord, TDC and sthar8 have made good use of their posts. I feel that iLord looks very pro-town for engaging people into matters (case in point) and only have found 1 or so problems with the conclusions he has made. TDC I think has still made far too much of his discussion about the setup, like Electra has, and I do not know if his focus on other players has been cautious or not. Sthar8 looks like contributing town to me.

Guardian has certainly posted a lot but when he started to list off things he was going to accomplish it felt like an attempt to direct conversation by bringing up large pieces of what has already been said. I think this helps the several people who have replaced in and have not caught up or are looking for a summarized version of things, but this is an opportunity for Guardian to be biased and have an influence.

I do not think that RandomGem or Mana_Ku have given us enough positive contribution but understand how difficult this read can be if you’re starting late. I actually think Huntress has been reasonably active and want to hear her suspicion reasoning.

[TDC]

I don't know when the new deadline will be, but we really should get the second boost done.

Current boost count (I added alternative boosts in italics):
TDC (2+

2

) <- Incognito, sthar8,

Raging Rabbit, Huntress

sthar8 (2+

2

) <- Guardian, iLord,

TDC, Incognito

Raging Rabbit (2+

2

) <- Jahudo, Mana_Ku,

TDC, Incognito

eldarad (1+

2

) <- TDC,

Incognito, Raging Rabbit

Guardian <- Raging Rabbit
Jahudo <- eldarad

Should be complete. More people need to say who they'd be willing to boost.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

What I liked about it was that she was bringing thing up and it was an opportunity to get a better read. I thought she was pro-town for making the attempt but I had yet to see how her argument was accurate or not.

So you think that pushing points against inactive players (basically allowing you to get a better read) is pro-town, regardless of the accuracy of the point?

The tells being accused were (in so many words): Crazy wasn’t interested in the game, he suspected people without providing reason, tries to force a scum pair, and buddies up to someone else. That is how I interpreted sthar8’s post 119 because he actually said them differently and I continued my post by looking into them for other conclusions.

What I'm unclear of here is your opinion of Crazy - I couldn't discern from this paragraph whether or not your were for or against him.

You misinterpreted that. I said that Crazy’s vote did not look untimely or forcing the wagon because he was using a new point: that Skillit was backtracking. I was thinking that it was indicative that Skillit looked scummy despite Crazy’s way of suspecting people.

Okay, got it.

He wasn’t saying why those people were suspicious so they shouldn’t start looking more scummy just because he’s saying it. But if those people actually did something suspicious later on, Crazy could join the wagon much easier.

Okay, I understand that point, but could you explain the part where you said:

To me, it seems he's not as serious because it's not outlined

Why is he not as serious becuase the suspicions aren't "outlined?"

I don’t tend to clutter with opinions that I don’t have much confidence in and this game has been difficult to understand so I have a lot of unconfident opinions. I have shared who I think is town and scum through votes and some posts, such as finding RR to be town which despite what people are trying to tell me, I still believe is logical.

I actually meant the obvious. Your posts have a lot of clutter, but it's not random rambling clutter that Electra, was cautious, reserved clutter. You're posting often, but your making an effort to reserve your opinions.

• Activity: Not just filling up space with summary or over-extending into theory or even referring to other games that deter from the game at hand, but making an effort of acknowledging and responding to various threads of discussion.

How is that indicative of town?

• Focus: I do not think it is a scum tell that one person focuses extensively on one person. That is just how some people play but I think that he is bringing up points that show he is paying attention to what has already happened, not just recent material or the first few pages of the game.

Do you think RR is focusing extensively on one person?

------------------------------------------------------

I would boost sthar8 or Guardian if a majority is needed.

[eldarad]

The bit that, if anything, bothers me the most is how iLord unboosts someone he thinks is town in order to have the top two in his list as the ones he boosts.

What?

If you think that Guardian is a townie then it doesn't make sense to unboost him in favour of another person who you also think is a townie, unless you are deliberately trying to (over)emphasise how you are carefully boosting only the two people right at the top of your townie list.
I don't understand why you would unboost someone that you believe to be town.

Accumulated towniness? Can you point out where he has read town at all? I'm getting no such sentiments.

Well, it's certainly true that Jahudo appears at the "scum" end of your list, but very little of your summary of him suggests that you find him scummy.
Post 501 doesn't look convincing, even less so once I read #504. And post 501 is, presumably, the basis of your vote. Although, from what you said at the start of #501, it was done after your vote in an attempt to justify it.
I do accept TDC's point and I am changing my boost vote to someone who has a fighting chance of getting a majority before the deadline (whenever it is set).

...only voting for Incognito, and then backing-up quickly when his point was proven incorrect.

How is backing off once you are proven wrong an indicator of scum?
I also find the non-confrontational angle of attack ironic given your approach to springlullaby-Incognito.

I don't recall you mentioning any great level of suspicion of me at any point during this game until now -- you've gone to some lengths to characterize my playstyle as "similar to yours" and mentioned that my play so far "seems town but not safe enough to boost" (I'm guessing because of some supposed buddying that you thought could have been present)".

Yeah. All this is a fairly accurate representation of what I said and what I meant. My read changed when the rate of posting between you and Guardian contrasted sharply with the absence of (new) content and I questioned why that might be so.

But now in your 474, you bring forward a hypothesis that suggests that not only could Guardian and I potentially be scum buddies but iLord could also be a possible third?

My main point was that I think Guardian and Incog are both scum - although I accept that I may be wrong with respect to one or both of them.
I could totally see iLord paired up with one of {Incog, Guardian}
Given that I've already said that I don't think the quantity of back-and-forth between Incog and Guardian is justified given the lack of progress they have made on any of their points suggests that they are posting to create an aura of antagonism between each other that isn't linked to the quality or size of their cases.

How do you factor in the fact that I've mentioned that I'd be perfectly fine with an iLord or Guardian lynch for quite some time now?

Distancing?
Saying you are "fine" with an iLord or Guardian lynch is somewhat different from following through and pushing for a lynch. And, despite the quantity of posts you have made in your discussion with Guardian there is a lack of progress that I think is an indicator that you are both scum. Having said that, I would be delighted to see you change your vote to iLord.

unboost (Jahudo)
boost sthar8

[Electra]

I think sthar is best for a second boost. I just read through all his posts again, and I didn't think anything he said was particularly suspicious, furthermore, his formatting of posts has been very clear and protown. His massclaim suggestion seems unlikely for scum to do, since when I am scum, I hate massclaims. In addition, he would have had to give a reason for why he felt a massclaim would be good if people had agreed to it. I also like his suspicions of Crazy, although it seems like Crazy will not be the lynch today, and we won't see what alignment he actually is.

So

boost: sthar

[Guardian]

yay @ boosting sthar .

he is 2nd best boost choice to me, well done people keep it up.

[Guardian]

Guardian has certainly posted a lot but when he started to list off things he was going to accomplish it felt like an attempt to direct conversation by bringing up large pieces of what has already been said. I think this helps the several people who have replaced in and have not caught up or are looking for a summarized version of things, but this is an opportunity for Guardian to be biased and have an influence.

Jahudo, why do you think your explanation is more likely than the explanation that I wanted to keep a list of stuff to do public so I remembered and moreover y'all would hold me to it?

Why is "directing conversation" or "being biased" or "having an influence" scummy?

What does "being biased" mean in mafia, other than that I am biased against those not of my alignment??

===

I have had no chance to read, but let's try a little process of elimination.

1) Electra
2) Mana_Ku (replacing Skillit)
3) Raging Rabbit
4) iLord
5) TDC
6) Huntress (replacing Crazy)
7) Incognito
8) eldarad
9) sthar8
10) Guardian (replacing springlullaby)
11) Jahudo
12) RandomGem (replacing fuzzylightning)

We aren't gonna lynch those who we boost. Let's assume we do the second best thing and boost sthar. I also assume that we aren't gonna lynch me (cuz i'm town, obv).

1, 9, 10 eliminated.

Hm, this doesn't really work, I can't think of anyone I really am totally against lynching. Except maybe RR, he seems pretty cool. I need to read player by player. 2 more essays to write. Saturday morning I'm yours .

[Guardian]

The reason this is not a good scum gambit is this: I've been boosted, so what? It just means that people find me to be unlikely to be mafia today, it means nothing for the future.

Mafia get some kind of bonus if boosted, right? So I assume that that is really bad for the town and good for the scum. So you being as boosted as scum is v(ery).nice for scum :(.

[Electra]

The reason this is not a good scum gambit is this: I've been boosted, so what? It just means that people find me to be unlikely to be mafia today, it means nothing for the future.

Mafia get some kind of bonus if boosted, right? So I assume that that is really bad for the town and good for the scum. So you being as boosted as scum is v(ery).nice for scum .

Sure, but the best possible boost for a Mafia would be an extra night kill. If I'm Mafia, and die as a result of this gambit, a town for a mafia would still be a bad deal for me.

[Guardian]

The reason this is not a good scum gambit is this: I've been boosted, so what? It just means that people find me to be unlikely to be mafia today, it means nothing for the future.

Mafia get some kind of bonus if boosted, right? So I assume that that is really bad for the town and good for the scum. So you being as boosted as scum is v(ery).nice for scum :(.

Sure, but the best possible boost for a Mafia would be an extra night kill. If I'm Mafia, and die as a result of this gambit, a town for a mafia would still be a bad deal for me.

But you aren't dying because of the gambit, you are getting boosted. Obviously the gambit is bad if it doesn't work, that's why it is called a gambit, there is risk involved..... Obviously the risk wasn't that big since pretty much I am the only one who still has substantive doubt of your role -- it paid off in that not only did you get boosted, everyone thinks you are town.

Furthermore, why assume only a NK? What about a role cop, or roleblock powerup, or immunity to NK or investigation? It definitely does not need to be as detectable as an "extra kill" for it to suck for the mafia to have it.

[Electra]

I think the best (worst) thing for the Mafia to get would be an extra night kill. A one shot role cop would be not that useful, I think, and same for a roleblock (they're just not guaranteed to actually have an effect). Immunity to investigation is better than immunity to NK (we don't know how many killing groups there are yet, of course), but even still, it would require the cop to investigate the mafia for the boost to be useful for mafia. So another night kill is definitely the best thing for mafia to get and what we should be most afraid of. (And if you think about it, roleblock/rolecop are significantly worse than NK+ because they could just kill whoever they were planning to investigate/block.)

Well, you don't know how big the risk actually was. Obviously it looks like a good play for me in hindsight, but I still think it's a much better play as town than scum.

[iLord]

asdfasdf

If you think that Guardian is a townie then it doesn't make sense to unboost him in favour of another person who you also think is a townie, unless you are deliberately trying to (over)emphasise how you are carefully boosting only the two people right at the top of your townie list.
I don't understand why you would unboost someone that you believe to be town.

That's horrible logic - I'm not sure of anyone's alignment - of course I am going to boost the two people who I feel have the highest probablity of being town.

Well, it's certainly true that Jahudo appears at the "scum" end of your list, but very little of your summary of him suggests that you find him scummy.
Post 501 doesn't look convincing, even less so once I read #504. And post 501 is, presumably, the basis of your vote. Although, from what you said at the start of #501, it was done after your vote in an attempt to justify it.
I do accept TDC's point and I am changing my boost vote to someone who has a fighting chance of getting a majority before the deadline (whenever it is set).

You're completing ignoring my statements that my summary is just a summary to help me organize my thoughts. Why did you say that there was little in my summary that suggests I find him scummy?

I am - I found Jahudo scummy, and I was trying to find why, hence my case.

How is backing off once you are proven wrong an indicator of scum?
I also find the non-confrontational angle of attack ironic given your approach to springlullaby-Incognito.

I never said it was - I'm pointing out how little he was attacking.

As I have stated multiple times, each case is different - you can't lump "scumtells" together.

----------------------------------------------

This post was really scummy. Even considering changing my vote to Eldarad.

[Guardian]

If you think that Guardian is a townie then it doesn't make sense to unboost him in favour of another person who you also think is a townie, unless you are deliberately trying to (over)emphasise how you are carefully boosting only the two people right at the top of your townie list.
I don't understand why you would unboost someone that you believe to be town.

That's horrible logic - I'm not sure of anyone's alignment - of course I am going to boost the two people who I feel have the highest probablity of being town.

QFT

unvote vote: eldarad

[eldarad's]post was really scummy. Even considering changing my vote to Eldarad.

Oh no, me and iLord are suspicious of the same person for some overlapping reasons, we must be scum together!

[Guardian]

I'ma skim through eldarad's posts cuz what ilord pointed out really struck me as crap logic, so my spidey sense is tingling

[Guardian]

*Electra's assumption was that everyone fell into 1 of 3 categories. Anyone who got boosted got some kind of power, either in the form of an augmentation of an existing power, the addition of a power, or the augmentation of a mafia power.Electra illogically assumes 3 possibilities. If her theory assumes 2 sides (scum and town) and includes her 2 categories (w/ and w/o power) the obvious conclusion is 4 possibilities, not 3. Its odd (heh get it? odd?? ehh??) to me that she omitted the category of scum w/ no power but the potential to gain one as it logically and mathematically seems as self evident as the town version.

I think Skillit's "only 3 categories is illogical" theory feels like reaching. Particuarly as #27 is mostly a rationalisation of his previous comments, rather than an explanation of the original rationale.

vote Skillit

I think this is more crap logic, Skillit makes sense and I don't see him as rationalizing.

people with, people without, and mafia.

Electra if the mafia aren't people, what are they?

There are likely either only 2 categories, or 4. it seems presumptuous to assume that all mafia members would be in one category when everyone else falls into one of 2. I agree that people either have or do not have roles, but to assume that either all or no mafia have roles seems like it would require some extra information to assert. you don't...have extra information about the specifics of the mafia members powers...do you?

I am particuarly bothered because his attack on Electra in post 21 - and it

was

an attack, no matter what he has said since - is later justified in post 27. But a lot of post 27 has obviously been thought of after post 21.
So post 27 isn't explaining the reason for the attack, it is creating reasons as to why the attack was valid

after the event

.

More craplogic. I mean I'd keep reading, but I am already convinced. Skillit was clarifying 21 in 27. eldarad was attacking a player who had a hard time expressing himself. He uses confusing language and I don't think he realized his ideas meshed together/flowed from one another, but eldarad either lied or had a VERY ungenerous read of Skillit in saying that the rationale in 27 was thought of after 21, and then voting him for it.

Then just now he crap logic'd iLord.

Summary:Everyone wagon eldarad please. PS: you're welcome.

PPS, Circle of suspicious people:
Eldarad, Incognito, Jahudo, iLord, TDC in rough order.

**Eldarad could EASILY be scum with iLord, there are a few connexions I'm seeing. But let's cross that bridge if/when we come to it, if when we lynch eldarad he is scum.

[eldarad]

I think this is more crap logic, Skillit makes sense and I don't see him as rationalizing.

He uses confusing language and I don't think he realized his ideas meshed together/flowed from one another, but eldarad either lied or had a VERY ungenerous read of Skillit in saying that the rationale in 27 was thought of after 21, and then voting him for it.

Skillit may make sense, but he thought about it after he placed his vote. And hence post 27 is rationalising his vote rather than providing a rationale for his vote.

Having thought

further

on this i now realize that there is no reason to believe that there is an odd number of potential categories

Italics are in the original post. The whole "odd" theory of 3 vs 4 categories was only thought of after the vote.

The two points you've identified are just the same point written out twice. Maybe you should keep reading.

~~~

That's horrible logic - I'm not sure of anyone's alignment - of course I am going to boost the two people who I feel have the highest probablity of being town.

To me, it looks like you unboosted Guardian - someone you believe to be town - in favour of boosting Electra.
I'm fairly sure I recall you saying that your ranking isn't as scientific as it looks, and that only the category (town, scum, in between) is meaningful. In which case I don't understand how you're now able to pinpoint with a reasonable level of precision that, not only are Electra and Guardian both town but that Electra is "more" town than Guardian and therefore more deserving of a boost.

You're completing ignoring my statements that my summary is just a summary to help me organize my thoughts. Why did you say that there was little in my summary that suggests I find him scummy?

I was operating under the reasonable assumption that the blocks of words next to the colourful words were there to explain to others what you are thinking (and why). With the possible beneficial side-effect of helping you organise your thoughts.
If you are saying that the paragraphs in #452 aren't explaining why you have classified people into town, scum, neutral, then I like that post even less.

I am - I found Jahudo scummy, and I was trying to find why, hence my case.

Isn't that kinda the wrong way round?

[iLord]

asdfasdf

To me, it looks like you unboosted Guardian - someone you believe to be town - in favour of boosting Electra.
I'm fairly sure I recall you saying that your ranking isn't as scientific as it looks, and that only the category (town, scum, in between) is meaningful. In which case I don't understand how you're now able to pinpoint with a reasonable level of precision that, not only are Electra and Guardian both town but that Electra is "more" town than Guardian and therefore more deserving of a boost.

Come on - you're just twisitng my words. My rankings are not as rigid as they appear, only around the center - the extremes at the ends are as defined as anyone elses. The whole definition of Electra reading more town than Guardian is that she has a larger chance of being town - you don't need a "reasonable level of precision" to "pinpoint" that.

This reasoning is so forced.

I was operating under the reasonable assumption that the blocks of words next to the colourful words were there to explain to others what you are thinking (and why). With the possible beneficial side-effect of helping you organise your thoughts.
If you are saying that the paragraphs in #452 aren't explaining why you have classified people into town, scum, neutral, then I like that post even less.

God, this is so scummy. This reasoning isn't unintentionally bad.

What are the possible beneficial side-effect of helping organize my thoughts? Are you serious?

I didn't explain why in my colored post - I stated what I found suspicious, and a general summary of their posts. I told you to ask me for why. Which you ignored, after calling my reads contrived.

Isn't that kinda the wrong way round?

No, it isn't. Jahudo's recent posts have been scummy. He has given me a scum read. I look back to see what I can dig up from before, and why I have been getting a scummy read.

--------------------------------------------------

Eldarad's quite intentionally pushing this poor logic, especially since he hasn't even bothered to question any of my reads in the post he called "contrived." I'm going with Guardian, this is scummier than Jahudo.

Unvote, Vote Eldarad.

[Huntress]

After doing individual reads on the following players, Elderad and Electra are my top suspects at the moment, Skillet/Manu_Ku I'm not sure about and iLord, Jahudo, sthar8, fuzzylightning/RandomGem and TDC are looking town-like so far. I still need to re-read Incognito, Raging Rabbit and Springlullaby/Guardian.

Elderad will probably be getting my vote (I'll have more to say about that later), unless it's one of the three I haven't finished looking at yet, and I'm still waiting for Electra's response to my comments in post 458.

As for a boost, TDC is looking most likely at the moment.

Further to the above, I've just finished my read of Raging Rabbit. There are a few things I'm going to check again later but for the moment he goes into the middle of my list, alongside Manu_Ku. Next job is the case on Elderad I promised earlier and then a read on Incognito.


@ Electra: As I said above I'm still waiting for a response to post 458.

[Electra]

I'm defining vanilla as not having a role. Boosts are specific to this game, and anyone can be boosted, so if I don't get anything unless I'm boosted, I'm vanilla to me.

Why would the Mafia assume that town had these roles even if they had similar roles? It's just too much of a leap. People just aren't that smart/bold. :p The fact that I did this quickly means that it was an easy thought process because I was telling the truth. If I was lying, then I'd have to think through much more to make sure I didn't say anything that would screw me up.

He said play normally and then find someone to boost later. I take this to mean, ignore boosts, don't talk about them, and then pick the least scummy. I'm mainly advocating talking about the strategy behind boosting. Mafia would obviously not want to delve too deeply into a strategy because it would hurt them.

It's true that I've been light on the scumhunting, and I will try to do better before the day is over.

This is the first of my individual reads on players. I'm trying to avoid repeating things which have already been looked at but I may not always succeed.

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish. I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town (reworded, of course). I don't mind claiming since I'm not a power role, and if I'm not boosted, then Mafia have no reason to kill me, and I think that if I can get information, then it's a smart choice for a boost.

Here Electra claims to be vanilla but also claims to have a role PM which is clearly not vanilla; and a role which gains information about the town if boosted could just as easily be given to mafia as to town.

@ TD - you don't know. I am hoping the fact that there was no night (aka the mafia would not have been able to discuss this as a strategy) and that I did it so quickly works for me. In addition, mafia would not know that there would even be roles where it's stated what type of general thing a boost might do for you.

How do you know that the mafia would not know there could be such roles? They might have similar roles themselves. And how does the fact that you did this so quickly prove anything?

I think in terms of responses to my original post… first I appreciate the boosts, and I hope that you’re doing so because you think I’m town-ish.
Second, in terms of suspicious responses – Crazy’s “I’d like to just play normally and ignore all this boosting stuff” seems weird to me, it’s a bit passive, and sort of seems like scum trying to have a “safe” opinion. I find eldarad’s post to be unscummy, as I think that there’s no reason for scum to be the first to “react” to such a unique post. :p I also find iLord’s post to be unscummy for a similar reason.

You are misrepresenting Crazy here. He did not not say "ignore all this boosting stuff”. What he actually said was "I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost. I think it's likely that everyone will get at least something from being boosted... so I don't think boosting Electra is conceivably better than boosting anyone else at this point." Why is it 'passive' and 'like scum' not to give his boost to the first person to ask for it? Later on, in post 286, you write, "I know that I at least am being very careful about boosting people, and that before final boosts, I plan to reread the thread and decide which people are the least likely to be scum." So why did you think Crazy was scummy for showing the same caution? And why is it unscummy for eldarad and iLord to be quick to react?

@Huntress: Do you see anything suspicious from Electra that doesn't have to do with boosting/theory talk/setup talk?

The main thing is that, except for one or two of her more recent posts, she seems to be observing rather than actually scumhunting. She almost seems to be using her case against Crazy as an excuse for not going after anyone else, yet when she details her case on him she's listing things that are anti-town, not necessarily scummy.

[iLord]

Electra, what do you think about Eldarad?

[Jahudo]

<snip>
A tendency that has been shown and is exhibited here is Jahudo’s opinionless posts

I could say the same for Incognito. One of SL’s points against Incog in post 222 was that he asked for people’s reason for voting Skillit without Incog giving a stance himself. I did not think this was a scum tell at the time, post 224, but I agreed that Incog was not taking a stance.

iLord, how many times have I clearly avoided giving an opinion to a major discussion point versus how many times has someone like Incog avoided giving one? How do you know that the tell means someone is waiting for other people to respond first and not just trying to make up their own mind or using the words of others to help shape their mind?

So you think that pushing points against inactive players (basically allowing you to get a better read) is pro-town, regardless of the accuracy of the point?

What do you mean? Incognito was active.

What I'm unclear of here is your opinion of Crazy - I couldn't discern from this paragraph whether or not your were for or against him.

I thought he was slightly scummy in a later post but I also didn’t think there were obvious tells from anyone so this is a weak opinion. One thing I didn’t like was Crazy saying he wasn’t interested in the game when pointing to his inactivity. It could’ve been an excuse to lurk longer but I couldn’t think of anything to ask him about it.

To me, it seems he's not as serious because it's not outlined

Why is he not as serious becuase the suspicions aren't "outlined?"

Outlining points of suspicion makes it apparent what he thinks is a tell and by stating that he thinks there is a tell, those people can have a legitimate case against them. Without the outline, I don’t think he can make a legitimate case.

Also, I think that activity as I defined it in post 504 is indicative of acting pro-town and foremost searching for scum above unnecessary clutter and overextended setup talk. I think he provides some good counterpoints to your points so I don’t think it’s an extensive that hurting anything. I wonder how much some people are actually reading of it, but I don’t see that as a consequence of RR’s focus.