Mini 183: Quick and the Dead - Town Wins!


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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:17 pm

Post by Myopia »

I only think its helpful normally to mass claim early if:
- our power roles arent immediately obvious; and
- the theme makes it hard for the scum to claim (generally the better defined the theme the harder it is unless the mod turns things on their head).

Frankly I dont know whether either is true and accordingly i cant really support a claim.

Can someone post a link to any form of synopsis for the movie. I thought I had seen it but whats coming out isnt ringing any bells at all.

I also dont think any form of mass claim is a good idea until we clarify how duelling works.

Lastly I guess if we are going to do a mass claim I think it should probably be done on the basis that we solve this game as a puzzle without going to night. The claim process should be used to confirm innocents - people who we agree by consensus are essentially highly unlikely to be scum. We then compile a list of the "dodgy" claims and have them duel the confirmed innocents and oblige them to lose or be lynched. Continue until weve eliminated the scum or winnowed them down to the point they are unlikely to win.

Note this would suck a great deal of fun out of the game (for me at least).
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:19 pm

Post by Myopia »

Oh note also that if mathcam cant think of a way to break the duelling mechanism to the towns advantage Im going to simply assume he is scum and vote for him.

Im half kidding and half serious.
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:37 pm

Post by SquareKnight »

www.imdb.com

Knowledge is power.


I think axelrod's focus on you is perfectly reasonable, Mgm. While others are uneasy with a mass name claim (I'm one of them, for the record), you're the only one claiming to do so based upon hidden information (your role). I don't find your behavior particularly suspicious at the moment, but I'm going to have to think about that. Still, your (evidently) different, which seems like a good reason to watch you very closely.

However, I also think that scum might attempt to jump on this to get you lynched, which is why I'll
FoS: Puzzle
.

Puzzle, what makes you so certain that Mgm's claimed knowledge is fake?

Also, I'm very relieved to hear that multiple duels by the same player aren't allowed. That alleviates my worry about the mafia machine-gunning down townies if things get bad.

But...
mod clarification requested
: If person A challenges person B and wins, the person A cannot challenge again, correct? But can person A be challenged by anyone else, or is he now immune because he's participated in a duel already?
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:40 pm

Post by SquareKnight »

It has come to my attention that IMDB's summary is woefully inadequate. My faith in them is shattered. As penance, I submit:
http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Reviews/Qu ... heDead.asp

The power of Google, my friends and associates.
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:43 pm

Post by Zippy »

SquareKnight wrote:www.imdb.com

Knowledge is power.


I think axelrod's focus on you is perfectly reasonable, Mgm. While others are uneasy with a mass name claim (I'm one of them, for the record), you're the only one claiming to do so based upon hidden information (your role). I don't find your behavior particularly suspicious at the moment, but I'm going to have to think about that. Still, your (evidently) different, which seems like a good reason to watch you very closely.

However, I also think that scum might attempt to jump on this to get you lynched, which is why I'll
FoS: Puzzle
.

Puzzle, what makes you so certain that Mgm's claimed knowledge is fake?

Also, I'm very relieved to hear that multiple duels by the same player aren't allowed. That alleviates my worry about the mafia machine-gunning down townies if things get bad.

But...
mod clarification requested
: If person A challenges person B and wins, the person A cannot challenge again, correct? But can person A be challenged by anyone else, or is he now immune because he's participated in a duel already?
western game with machine guns....

fos..

;)
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:48 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

he used machine gun as a term to refer to them quickly dueling everyone in the game in a row, trying to kill them all...
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:32 pm

Post by Zippy »

;) means i was joking...

is that allowed here...
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:04 pm

Post by Puzzle »

@ MoS : I didn't vote MGM because he disagreed with me. When he first did, I acknowledged it and switched my vote to Coron to have him speak about the topic.
I voted MGM when I estimated that his "knowledge" was false :
Post #20 :
Mgm wrote:I'm not sure we should bother with a mass name claim. I KNOW there is a safe guard against it.
Post #24 :
Mgm wrote:I know there is a safe-guard, but I'm not sure about how effective it actually is. I can't really say much else without giving stuff away. Sorry.
Post #37 :
Mgm wrote:I'm positive that any real townies will know I'm innocent as soon as I claim. I just don't want a mass claim to reveal this info to the mafia. The fail safe I talked about earlier is that scum can claim that role as soon as a real townie claims it.
see my answer to this post #38.
Post #39 :
Mgm wrote:We still don't know if scum can influence the outcome of a duel.
I'm not about to try to find out with a mass townie slaughter.

What if the scum decide not to claim townie and let all townies kill each other?
I stand by my point that this early in the game a mass claim won't help the town.
and my answer post #40.

Mathcam, The Shadow and in fact most people here disagree with my suggestion or even Axelrod's, which is their right. However, lying is not what I consider a right.
For the time being, I see only two possible liars :
- MGM, as explained above.
- MoS for saying that I voted MGM because he disagreed with me as an argument to his own vote.
FOS MoS
.

My point with the mass name-claim, although it presents risks, is that clearing townies is a good way to avoid mislynches and to corner the mafia. The drawback, indeed, is to expose the doc. However, I don't see how claiming if we are a movie villain or not hurts the town.

Additionally, if anyone could explain to me why the town should ask rather clear characters to duel shady ones instead of having shady characters duelling one another...
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:51 pm

Post by Mgm »

Correction: townies would know I'm innocent if I'm the first townie to claim. Otherwise I'm just as suspicious as anyone else.

A mass claim won't "clear" any townies, because after the first scum could claim townie to join them. Sure, we could let two of them duel, but who knows who'll survive. The survivor looks scummier when the dead duelist was innocent, but we could have two townies in the battle to start with.

Additionally, having all townies out in the open helps scum target the power roles before they can investigate/protect/vig.

A "I'm not a movie villain"-claim isn't problematic, but I don't see how it helps. Do you think the scum are going to admit being scum?
For the time being, I see only two possible liars :
- MGM, as explained above.
I don't see how I could possibly be a liar. You haven't proven anything, you just listed by comments "above" in that post.
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:15 am

Post by Puzzle »

To clarify, I'm taking about NAME claims, not role claims.
I appreciate that some names may be associated with roles, but that's not for sure. If everyone agrees that the movie villains are scums here, then we force them to lie.
What lie can they make, then ?
- claim a main townie role ? it's likely to generate counter-claims.
- claim a secondary, shady role ? well, it clears the main roles and we can force the shady ones to duel until scums disappear and lynch the last one eventually.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:46 am

Post by Mgm »

With regard to my role, there's no difference between role and name claims.
I'm not a villain from the movie.

You're leaving out option 3:
- scum claiming a minor townie role and not generate counter-claims, leaving townies hoping they'll be investigated.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:50 am

Post by Puzzle »

Option 3 is included in option 2, for me.
Thanks for cooperating, though.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:57 am

Post by mathcam »

I need to hear Nannok's reponse to SquareKnight's question in post 52 before I invest any more thought into a strategy.

Myopia: I see what you're saying in post 51, but it's also a fairly dangerous set of reasoning. It might be the case that there
is
no great strategy, or it might be the case that I simply miss it. Now, if I proposed a plan that gave the town a 40% chance at winning when it was pretty clear the town could co better than that,
then
I'd be suspicious of me.

As to Mgm, I'm not suspisious of him for the "no mass claims" thing, nor his revelation that his role helped him come to that decision. The jury in my brain is still out on the further arguments that Puzzle posted.

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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:52 am

Post by Axelrod »

So this is what I got right now:

Peacebringer ("Cort", deceased): very talented at dueling

Mgm: KNOWS there's a safeguard against mass name-claiming (but is not sure how effective it really is) Failsafe is that scum could claim the role as soon as a real townie claim it. May have a "generic" role from the movie. Not a villain from the movie.

Coron: mass name-claim seems against the spirit of the game

Mathcam: against mass name-claim (for now). Is doing a lot of "thinking"

Myopia: role contains a general description of dueling ability. Against mass name-claim (for now)

Puzzle: not a villain role from the movie

Axelrod: not a villain role from the movie

Zippy: not a villain from the movie

Obelix: has a character role. 95% sure it's not a villain.

The Shadow: thinks name-claiming a bad idea at the moment.

MOS: against mass "role-claiming." (which isn't what we were talking about)

SquareKnight: uneasy with a mass name-claim

Okay folks. I'm not going to stamp my feet and demand everyone agree with me, but can you see where I am going here? First I am simply trying to establish that no one who is actually a "townie" has a role that was a villain in the movie. I think, quite frankly, that this is highly unlikely, but it's a place to start.

If someone who is a townie DOES have a role that was a villain, they should say so. I would not, repeat, would NOT advocate lynching this person (or persons) today, since if they were mafia (and therefore basically declaring their true roles) this would be a bad move. I would be MORE likely to believe someone who came out early with a claim like that. But I would also definately want them investigated by an inspector.

If no one is claiming to be a movie Villain, then it only makes sense that the movie villaims are the mafia. Therefore any mass name-claim will force them to lie and invent a claim. Mgm says this won't work. He implies that there are "generic" roles (for example "Gunfighter" or "man in bar") that the mafia would be able to claim and thus avoid detection. What I am saying is that even this is better for the town--i.e. forcing all the mafia into claiming "generic" type roles. It makes those people with character roles more trustworthy.

Now perhaps there are roles that were "good guys" in the movie but are mafia in this game. If that is the case then a mass name-claim will truly do no good. But I think there is less of a chance of that. It's a "theme" game after all. We know one role - Cort - who was good in the movie and was a townie here. Do we really think Nannok would leave out the juicy villains?

My suggestion for the next "round" of claiming is to see how many people are claiming to be "named characters" from the movie, as opposed to "extras" or "generic" roles. If we can get a division along those lines (without anyone revealing their actual role) we will definately have a better idea of the set-up.

Anyone willing to go along with this? Otherwise we are basically firing in the dark here.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:15 am

Post by Puzzle »

Count me in, Axelrod.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:59 am

Post by _Obelix_ »

I already stated this earlier: my role is a named character from the film.

I agree it is a good idea to have everybody do this.
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:40 am

Post by Mgm »

<sarcasm>Yeah, sure let people claim whether they have a name from the movie. Makes it a lot easier for the scum to pick them off one by one. :? Especially in a situation where there's more generic than roles with movie names in the game.

Way to go!</sarcasm>
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:27 am

Post by Axelrod »

Mgm wrote:<sarcasm>Yeah, sure let people claim whether they have a name from the movie. Makes it a lot easier for the scum to pick them off one by one. :? Especially in a situation where there's more generic than roles with movie names in the game.
And you know this is true how? There are more than enough "character" roles in the movie to fill up a 12 person game. True, some characters are more important than others, but that's not what I'm talking about. What exactly makes you so certain that there are "more" generic roles than roles which are named characters from the movie? You are the only one who has even hinted at having such a role so far.

You are also making an assumption here. Namely that it would be the 'character" roles that have all the power abilities--which might be true, but that's no less of an assumption than the one I am making which you are criticizing.
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:28 am

Post by Axelrod »

Mgm wrote:<sarcasm>Yeah, sure let people claim whether they have a name from the movie. Makes it a lot easier for the scum to pick them off one by one. :? Especially in a situation where there's more generic than roles with movie names in the game.
And you know this is true how? There are more than enough "character" roles in the movie to fill up a 12 person game. True, some characters are more important than others, but that's not what I'm talking about. What exactly makes you so certain that there are "more" generic roles than roles which are named characters from the movie? You are the only one who has even hinted at having such a role so far.

You are also making an assumption here. Namely that it would be the 'character" roles that have all the power abilities--which might be true, but that's no less of an assumption than the one I am making which you are criticizing.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:15 am

Post by Mgm »

Well, I know the generic name is for townies, logically it must follow power roles are named movie roles. It wouldn't make sense to only name the scum.
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:17 am

Post by Mgm »

Oh, I don't know there's more simple townies than named movie roles. It just makes sense from a balancing perspective of the game.
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:56 am

Post by _Obelix_ »

Mgm wrote:Well, I know the generic name is for townies, logically it must follow power roles are named movie roles. It wouldn't make sense to only name the scum.
Peace Bringer had an important character (Cort) was pro-tow, and I do not consider his role to be a specially powerful one (Although it is true that I have no idea what this "good at dueling" implied). So, I believe it is positive to force people into claiming generic or movie characters. With a setup of this size, I find it unlikely there are too many generic ones.
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:47 am

Post by Myopia »

I like the idea of indicating whether we are "named" or "generic". It cuts down the scums ability to false claim later and doesnt give away our power roles unless theres only a very few named pro-town players which seems unlikely.

I think it far more likely that the game is designed by adding the major characters and adding a few generic roles to prevent a simply mass claim solving the game.

I have a "named" character rather than a generic character.

Axlerod the game is about a movie with shady gunfighters coming to town to duel each other for cash. Rather than introduce subjective notions of what is a "villain" perhaps you could name the characters you see as villanous and we can discuss and conclude a list.

Then any pro-town characters on that list have the option to indicate they are on it.
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:48 am

Post by Myopia »

I like the idea of indicating whether we are "named" or "generic". It cuts down the scums ability to false claim later and doesnt give away our power roles unless theres only a very few named pro-town players which seems unlikely.

I think it far more likely that the game is designed by adding the major characters and adding a few generic roles to prevent a simply mass claim solving the game.

I have a "named" character rather than a generic character.

Axlerod the game is about a movie with shady gunfighters coming to town to duel each other for cash. Rather than introduce subjective notions of what is a "villain" perhaps you could name the characters you see as villanous and we can discuss and conclude a list.

Then any pro-town characters on that list have the option to indicate they are on it.
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:51 pm

Post by Puzzle »

In case it wasn't already clear, my character has a name in the movie.
However, I think we could wait before listing who we think are villains. Opening such a discussion may force some of us to defend their character, hence revealing it. If you are not sure, use "I would tend to think I'm a movie goodie (or villain)", with a percentage as done previously. We can clarify that later on.

Currently flying under the radar :
- Coron
- The Shadow
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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