Mini 183: Quick and the Dead - Town Wins!
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Well, we've definitely run in to a gray area in the theory of mafia ethics...while I'm typically of the opinion that the town should use anything they can to ferret out scum. On the other hand, compromising another game to do isn't really kosher....
I think the best play, from all perspectives, is to have Coron and MGM duel each other, and then we can discuss lynching the loser. So if we, for example, knew for a fact that one of them was scum, we'd be guaranteeing ourselves a scum-kill today. While I don't think we can be that sure in this case, it still seems like our strongest play.
So I third (or whatever) the motion that we have Coron and MGM duel.
Cam
I think the best play, from all perspectives, is to have Coron and MGM duel each other, and then we can discuss lynching the loser. So if we, for example, knew for a fact that one of them was scum, we'd be guaranteeing ourselves a scum-kill today. While I don't think we can be that sure in this case, it still seems like our strongest play.
So I third (or whatever) the motion that we have Coron and MGM duel.
Cam
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SquareKnight Goon
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I know that, personally, I double checked my role before saying anything about it. However, I can imagine that others might not. Still, at just about the time it was becoming clear that Mgm would probably be the only truly generic character, he allegedly discovered his error. Now, claimed townies are often the default choice for a day one lynch, and I think a claimed generic role would likely be the same...especially if it was the only claimed generic role. So it would make perfect sense for a mafia member to try to back out on that claim.
Why not a vote? Well, if Mgm were scum trying to save his tail, I'd expect him to try to cast doubt on
And there's something else bothering me, Puzzle.
Why are you putting words in MoS's mouth?
Also, your vote simply doesn't make sense to me.
Let's assume that MoS is scum. What possible motivation would MoS have for using poor logic to defend Mgm? Well, if Mgm's scum, then it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, why would scum try to save an innocent who's about to be lynched?
I don't see what interest a mafia member would have in using fast talk to defend another player unless that player was also a member of the mafia. So...why isn't your vote still on Mgm?
Heavy FoS
: Mgm.Why not a vote? Well, if Mgm were scum trying to save his tail, I'd expect him to try to cast doubt on
my
claim rather than trying to back out on his. It seems more likely to succeed to me, although it's possible that I'm just not nearly as gutsy as Mgm.And there's something else bothering me, Puzzle.
Why are you putting words in MoS's mouth?
Puzzle wrote:It's not because someone admits being scummy that he isn't. Your logic, from the beginning, is much more flawed than Axelrod's.
Where's the bit where he says Mgm's admission is proof of innocence? He says it doesn't indicate scumminess, but that's a statement of neutrality, not of innocence.MoS wrote:I've done the same thing MgM just did, multiple times...it's not a scumminess indicator, and I think you were just trying to find a chance to lynch him, and jumped to him since he admitted to "lying" about his role, hoping people would follow.
Also, your vote simply doesn't make sense to me.
Let's assume that MoS is scum. What possible motivation would MoS have for using poor logic to defend Mgm? Well, if Mgm's scum, then it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, why would scum try to save an innocent who's about to be lynched?
I don't see what interest a mafia member would have in using fast talk to defend another player unless that player was also a member of the mafia. So...why isn't your vote still on Mgm?
vote: Puzzle
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SquareKnight Goon
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I know that, personally, I double checked my role before saying anything about it. However, I can imagine that others might not. Still, at just about the time it was becoming clear that Mgm would probably be the only truly generic character, he allegedly discovered his error. Now, claimed townies are often the default choice for a day one lynch, and I think a claimed generic role would likely be the same...especially if it was the only claimed generic role. So it would make perfect sense for a mafia member to try to back out on that claim.
Why not a vote? Well, if Mgm were scum trying to save his tail, I'd expect him to try to cast doubt on
And there's something else bothering me, Puzzle.
Why are you putting words in MoS's mouth?
Also, your vote simply doesn't make sense to me.
Let's assume that MoS is scum. What possible motivation would MoS have for using poor logic to defend Mgm? Well, if Mgm's scum, then it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, why would scum try to save an innocent who's about to be lynched?
I don't see what interest a mafia member would have in using fast talk to defend another player unless that player was also a member of the mafia. So...why isn't your vote still on Mgm?
Heavy FoS
: Mgm.Why not a vote? Well, if Mgm were scum trying to save his tail, I'd expect him to try to cast doubt on
my
claim rather than trying to back out on his. It seems more likely to succeed to me, although it's possible that I'm just not nearly as gutsy as Mgm.And there's something else bothering me, Puzzle.
Why are you putting words in MoS's mouth?
Puzzle wrote:It's not because someone admits being scummy that he isn't. Your logic, from the beginning, is much more flawed than Axelrod's.
Where's the bit where he says Mgm's admission is proof of innocence? He says it doesn't indicate scumminess, but that's a statement of neutrality, not of innocence.MoS wrote:I've done the same thing MgM just did, multiple times...it's not a scumminess indicator, and I think you were just trying to find a chance to lynch him, and jumped to him since he admitted to "lying" about his role, hoping people would follow.
Also, your vote simply doesn't make sense to me.
Let's assume that MoS is scum. What possible motivation would MoS have for using poor logic to defend Mgm? Well, if Mgm's scum, then it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, why would scum try to save an innocent who's about to be lynched?
I don't see what interest a mafia member would have in using fast talk to defend another player unless that player was also a member of the mafia. So...why isn't your vote still on Mgm?
vote: Puzzle
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Sure, if I'm indeed scum it makes perfect sense for my buddies to defend me. After all that's the quickest way to get themselves lynched as well. (that was sarcasm)Let's assume that MoS is scum. What possible motivation would MoS have for using poor logic to defend Mgm? Well, if Mgm's scum, then it makes perfect sense. Otherwise, why would scum try to save an innocent who's about to be lynched?
I don't see what interest a mafia member would have in using fast talk to defend another player unless that player was also a member of the mafia. So...why isn't your vote still on Mgm?
Defending an innocent is a much better move for the scum to make. It makes them look slightly more innocent.
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@ Squareknight :
- Where do I say that MoS said that MGM was innocent ?
- Who is putting words into other people's mouths ?
Having a crappy excuse for acting scummy like MGM did is not something sufficient for me to consider it "neutral". Saying that someone acting scummy is not worth inquiring more and voting people who try to dig this lead IS suspicious to me.
I think everyone more or less agreed that it is the town's best interest to have suspicious people duel each other, instead of voting them off to reach night. How about removing that vote and asking me to duel ?
For the duel, I'd rather have MoS and Coron fight first, then followed by MGM and Squareknight.
Could I suggest that each of us lists people they want to see duel today ? Then, we make the totals. People with most votes first claim and give any information they have, then duel each other after confirmation of the town's approval.
My list would be :
- Mastermind of Sin
- Coron
- MGM
- Squareknight
- Where do I say that MoS said that MGM was innocent ?
- Who is putting words into other people's mouths ?
Having a crappy excuse for acting scummy like MGM did is not something sufficient for me to consider it "neutral". Saying that someone acting scummy is not worth inquiring more and voting people who try to dig this lead IS suspicious to me.
I think everyone more or less agreed that it is the town's best interest to have suspicious people duel each other, instead of voting them off to reach night. How about removing that vote and asking me to duel ?
FOS Squareknight
because, as he mentioned, people who put words into other's mouths ARE suspicious + anything that gets the town closer to night is not in our interest.For the duel, I'd rather have MoS and Coron fight first, then followed by MGM and Squareknight.
Could I suggest that each of us lists people they want to see duel today ? Then, we make the totals. People with most votes first claim and give any information they have, then duel each other after confirmation of the town's approval.
My list would be :
- Mastermind of Sin
- Coron
- MGM
- Squareknight
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
Commodore Amazing
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Coron probably misunderstood what we were claiming, just as I first did.
If I'm forced to duel, I find SquareKnight a muvh better choice (see Puzzle's post #104).
If I'm forced to duel, I find SquareKnight a muvh better choice (see Puzzle's post #104).
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[u][b]Next:[/b] Doctor Who Mafia[/u]
[u]Testimonials about Mgm:[/u]
:shock: - Stoofer
You put me through hell Mgm, my nerves are crushed :/ - Patrick
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[u]Testimonials about Mgm:[/u]
:shock: - Stoofer
You put me through hell Mgm, my nerves are crushed :/ - Patrick
Can we have an actual claim before we force anyone to duel? We really could get more information that way, plus, if either of the two guys we are focusing on muffs the claim and claims a character we already have, then we can just lynch that person and not give them a chance to take a townie down in a duel. (See Mgm's post above. I find Coron much more suspicious that SquareKnight at this point.)
Even as I type this I see that we can't STOP a mafia from initiating a duel after he is uncovered (or can we if we lynch fast enough?) but it would still be better in my view to have them claim before dueling. If they refuse to claim, well, then I would say that looks pretty bad for them.
Even as I type this I see that we can't STOP a mafia from initiating a duel after he is uncovered (or can we if we lynch fast enough?) but it would still be better in my view to have them claim before dueling. If they refuse to claim, well, then I would say that looks pretty bad for them.
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To clarify : when I say "then MGM and Squareknight", I mean one by one, taking each time the winner of the previous duel, because I find them scummy, but less than the first two.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
Commodore Amazing
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Puzzle, what you propose is not doable, since each player can only take part in a duel each day. At this point, I would really like a full claim from both MGM and Coron. I believe they should duel each other, but said claim could perhaps change that opinion. In other words, I agree with Axelrod´s idea of first claim, then duel.
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What's your "position" on dueling? Will you challange if the majority requests it? Or will you refuse to do that too?Coron wrote:you want me to quote my position again?_Obelix_ wrote: At this point, I would really like a full claim from both MGM and Coron.
Do you have any actual thoughts on the game to this point?
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Myopia Goon
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I find both mgm and coron scummy at this point, mgm extremely so.
For mine MgM thinking he was a simple "villager" does not explain satisfactorily his comment that he knew there was a "failsafe" against mass claims. What also are the chances that the generic role in this game and his "other game" would be comparible?
At this point Mgm I want a url pointing to this other game or you are getting my vote. I dont see an ethical problem if its another site and noone in this game is part of that game.
Coron's position I simply dont understand. He is also steadfastly refusing to "nameclaim" when that is not at all what is being advocated at this point.
I dont have any effective knowledge of the theme either but I can see the use in differentiating between "named" roles and generic roles. Im struggling to see why he has a non-scummy reason for wanting to avoid it.
If your a power-role sure I can see why you wouldnt want to nameclaim but again how does differentiating between named and generic expose you at all?
Coron if your innocent and simply beligerant because your pissed its going to end up in you being dead day 1 one way or the other - can you not see that?
At this point Im thinking the most likely explanation is that this game *is* potentially broken my mass-claims, our scum knows that and is trying desperately to move the game away from there.
Otherwise Im also getting a little suspicious of both Mos and Mathcam.
Several times Mos seems like he has tried to divert things away from mgm. I just dont understand his logic for voting for the people attacking mgm when Mgm's play day 1 has been so scummy. Surely theres sufficient justification to grill him about it. As Ive said in other games I find that Mos as scum often goes too far in trying to defend his partners. Not sure if hes doing it here but Im going to keep my eye on him.
With mathcam its hard to articulate. While hes certainly posting Im just getting an extremly passive reactive sense from his posts. His posting style this game certainly seems different to other games I have been in with him (to be fair both pro-town and scum).
I am however extremely happy at this point to have mgm and coron duel or lynch either unless they can deal with the issues that have been raised so far.
Axlerod do you have any problem with posting your "villain" list. I have a feeling I may be on the dividing line and I dont want to create a problem for myself and the town subsequently if we enter a claim situation and people can make the fair comment that I should have outed myself as "villanous" earlier.
For mine MgM thinking he was a simple "villager" does not explain satisfactorily his comment that he knew there was a "failsafe" against mass claims. What also are the chances that the generic role in this game and his "other game" would be comparible?
At this point Mgm I want a url pointing to this other game or you are getting my vote. I dont see an ethical problem if its another site and noone in this game is part of that game.
Coron's position I simply dont understand. He is also steadfastly refusing to "nameclaim" when that is not at all what is being advocated at this point.
I dont have any effective knowledge of the theme either but I can see the use in differentiating between "named" roles and generic roles. Im struggling to see why he has a non-scummy reason for wanting to avoid it.
If your a power-role sure I can see why you wouldnt want to nameclaim but again how does differentiating between named and generic expose you at all?
Coron if your innocent and simply beligerant because your pissed its going to end up in you being dead day 1 one way or the other - can you not see that?
At this point Im thinking the most likely explanation is that this game *is* potentially broken my mass-claims, our scum knows that and is trying desperately to move the game away from there.
Otherwise Im also getting a little suspicious of both Mos and Mathcam.
Several times Mos seems like he has tried to divert things away from mgm. I just dont understand his logic for voting for the people attacking mgm when Mgm's play day 1 has been so scummy. Surely theres sufficient justification to grill him about it. As Ive said in other games I find that Mos as scum often goes too far in trying to defend his partners. Not sure if hes doing it here but Im going to keep my eye on him.
With mathcam its hard to articulate. While hes certainly posting Im just getting an extremly passive reactive sense from his posts. His posting style this game certainly seems different to other games I have been in with him (to be fair both pro-town and scum).
I am however extremely happy at this point to have mgm and coron duel or lynch either unless they can deal with the issues that have been raised so far.
Axlerod do you have any problem with posting your "villain" list. I have a feeling I may be on the dividing line and I dont want to create a problem for myself and the town subsequently if we enter a claim situation and people can make the fair comment that I should have outed myself as "villanous" earlier.
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Well, since I got killed night 1 in the other game with my role revealed, I don't see any harm in revealing it now. I was talking about Olde Mafia at the GL in which I was a simple townie (hence the generic unnamed thingy). Therefore I assumed there were other townies and mass claiming wouldn't work (failsafe), simply because the scum could hide in the masses and kill off the power roles while the town was busy killing off townies.Myopia wrote:For mine MgM thinking he was a simple "villager" does not explain satisfactorily his comment that he knew there was a "failsafe" against mass claims. What also are the chances that the generic role in this game and his "other game" would be comparible?
At this point Mgm I want a url pointing to this other game or you are getting my vote. I dont see an ethical problem if its another site and noone in this game is part of that game.
Still, I guess there's no need to incriminate myself further. I'll just claim:
I'm "The Kid", simple townie. (This time I checked)
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[u]Testimonials about Mgm:[/u]
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You put me through hell Mgm, my nerves are crushed :/ - Patrick
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[u]Testimonials about Mgm:[/u]
:shock: - Stoofer
You put me through hell Mgm, my nerves are crushed :/ - Patrick
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Well, if you have any additional info from your flavor text, please post it. Then, as Coron won't do anything to help us, I'd like you or MoS to challenge him, like the others. Although losing a townie is never great, our vanillas are the "lesser loss" (sorry, I'm unable to formulate it well) for duels and we can really not be sure about you.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
Commodore Amazing
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(highlight mine) Since you said townie here, I assume you believe my claim.Well, if you have any additional info from your flavor text, please post it. Then, as Coron won't do anything to help us, I'd like you or MoS to challenge him, like the others. Although losing atownieis never great, our vanillas are the "lesser loss" (sorry, I'm unable to formulate it well) for duels and we can really not be sure about you.
First you say we should have suspicious people duel each other, now suddenly you think having a townie duel is a good idea?!
Unvote:SquareKnight; Vote:Puzzle
We should be searching for scum instead of rushing into duels based on flimsy logic.
Suggestion:
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[u][b]Next:[/b] Doctor Who Mafia[/u]
[u]Testimonials about Mgm:[/u]
:shock: - Stoofer
You put me through hell Mgm, my nerves are crushed :/ - Patrick
[u][b]Next:[/b] Doctor Who Mafia[/u]
[u]Testimonials about Mgm:[/u]
:shock: - Stoofer
You put me through hell Mgm, my nerves are crushed :/ - Patrick
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Puzzle
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I'm not speaking of you specifically when I say "townie". Although it concerns you, I gave more of a general philosophy. I'm saying that if we are to risk people's lives, I must admit that I feel slightly less nervous by risking vanillas than power roles.
To further clarify, I still tend not to believe your claim, I'm just not excluding the possibility that you may tell the truth.
As for your suggestion, may I suggest the following procedure :
- we wait until someone gets 4 votes (2 from a lynch).
- after the claim, everyone confirms his vote or unvotes the person.
- those who were not voting for him state if they want the "suspect" to duel, by using FOS for example (we don't want to lynch and reach night prematurely).
- if a majority of FOS + votes is reached, the person is booked for the next duel.
- ...we continue to play...
- when we get a second "suspect" who we want to duel, one of them challenges the other.
So, in short, yes, I agree.
To further clarify, I still tend not to believe your claim, I'm just not excluding the possibility that you may tell the truth.
As for your suggestion, may I suggest the following procedure :
- we wait until someone gets 4 votes (2 from a lynch).
- after the claim, everyone confirms his vote or unvotes the person.
- those who were not voting for him state if they want the "suspect" to duel, by using FOS for example (we don't want to lynch and reach night prematurely).
- if a majority of FOS + votes is reached, the person is booked for the next duel.
- ...we continue to play...
- when we get a second "suspect" who we want to duel, one of them challenges the other.
So, in short, yes, I agree.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
Commodore Amazing
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MGM, does your role PM say anything about your dueling ability? If so, just say yes, do not tell us what it says.
Coron, just to make it clear: I would like YOU specifically to claim, since I find your attitude really scummy. To reinforce my petition,
Coron, just to make it clear: I would like YOU specifically to claim, since I find your attitude really scummy. To reinforce my petition,
Vote: Coron
Record of all my games here:
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