Mini 183: Quick and the Dead - Town Wins!


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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 5:34 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

unvote, vote: Puzzle


I already had you high on my list of suspects, and you yourself managed to convince me that voting for Axelrod wasn't worth it quite yet. The thing is, I haven't found your arguments against MgM to be substantial at all, which is why I haven't been jumping on him with you. Then Axelrod votes for him because he confused himself, something many players do, and I smell scum looking for an excuse to further a bandwagon.

Needless to say, I'd like to see Axelrod or Coron duel Puzzle if we go through with that plan. Personally, I think Puzzle has been a bit over-obssessive with suggesting ways for us to kill each other off.

Suggestion: If you want to duel someone, post it in the thread before you actually declare the duel, so if the other person perhaps wants to claim to keep you from accidentally killing them, they have a chance to do so. Of course, scum probably won't follow this plan, but we can always lynch people who challenge out of the blue and are still alive afterwards.

Myopia, I'd like you to reference some games where you think I've overly defended my scum buddies. I'm unconvinced that I play like that, since that is usually the opposite of my strategy as scum. Occasionally I attempt to make suggestions to help them under pressure, but I'd like some examples that establish that I overly defend scum buddies when I'm scum. Then while you're at it, look through my games and find all the times where I've been town and overly defended someone I felt was being wrongly attacked for false reasoning. Then get back to me with your results. I'll be interested in seeing if you can truly support your claim.
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 7:01 am

Post by The Shadow »

I haven't seen the film so maybe I'm nuts, but from what I've read on it, the Kid is Herod's son. Herod is the bad guy and the Kid seems to be on his side. So wouldn't that make MgM scum? If someone has a better suggestion let me know, because I'm seriously suspicious of MgM right now. He says he's a generic character until it becomes obvious there are none. Now he says he mixed up PMs. Altogether possible, but I'm thinking it more like a desperate attempt to get out of it. If the Kid is scum, why would he want to claim that unless he had to? Since he had to make a name claim, he could make a claim someone else probably had, or he could give his real name and try to and con everyone into believing he was innocent.

Unvote. Vote: MgM


However, another thing that bugs me is the opening thing that Nanook gave. It sounds like to win you have to be the only one left.
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 7:01 am

Post by The Shadow »

I haven't seen the film so maybe I'm nuts, but from what I've read on it, the Kid is Herod's son. Herod is the bad guy and the Kid seems to be on his side. So wouldn't that make MgM scum? If someone has a better suggestion let me know, because I'm seriously suspicious of MgM right now. He says he's a generic character until it becomes obvious there are none. Now he says he mixed up PMs. Altogether possible, but I'm thinking it more like a desperate attempt to get out of it. If the Kid is scum, why would he want to claim that unless he had to? Since he had to make a name claim, he could make a claim someone else probably had, or he could give his real name and try to and con everyone into believing he was innocent.

Unvote. Vote: MgM


However, another thing that bugs me is the opening thing that Nanook gave. It sounds like to win you have to be the only one left.
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 7:38 am

Post by _Obelix_ »

Shadow, I fear your assumption is wrong. The Kid is indeed Herod´s son, but I would definitely not consider him to be on his side (in fact, Herod kills him). Also, SquareKnight has claimed a generic character, so assuming there are none is a bit off.
I would in principle consider the Kid to be pro-town, and with him being one of the major characters in the film, very likely to be in the game. All this leads me to believe he actually is what he says he is, at least until there is a counterclaim. In my eyes, MGM is more cleared than some other players at this point, such as Coron and Puzzle (that would be my #1 choice for a duel right now).
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 7:52 am

Post by Puzzle »

If the Kid is good in the movie, then I agree to free the reins a little on MGM.

If I was to duel, I think I would then rather go for MoS, as I really have bigger scummy vibes from him than from even Coron. As he highly suspects me, I think it makes sense.

If that's okay with everyone, I feel ready to claim and proceed. Just ask.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 9:12 am

Post by Axelrod »

I would agree with Obelix and classify the Kid as definately not a villain in the movie. Plus, he's a role I would expect to be in this game, so without a counter-claim Mgm is looking much better. I think we have maybe four people left who haven't posted since his claim, so I'll wait to see what they have to say before making a final judgment.

I'm a little surprised that he would be a "vanilla" townie, but it's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. Since he was one of the four "finalists," he's supposed to be a good dueler, but that doesn't necessarily translate into game terms.

I'd pick MOS and Coron to duel at this point. One possibe way to read MOS's strong defense of Mgm, is that he's a mafia that "knew" Mgm was innocent, and was trying to make himself look better for when he is shown to be "right" later on. Of course, he might just have felt Mgm was innocent too. No strong vibes from anyone else.
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 9:15 am

Post by The Shadow »

@ Obelix: If the Kid is not mafia, then who is? Who would you consider a likely mafia candidate.

From what I've read, in the film, basically everyone dies in the tournament. And that seems to be how it is here. To win, everyone else must be dead.
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 9:19 am

Post by Zippy »

i think herrod may be a bad guy...

;)
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 9:28 am

Post by Axelrod »

Maybe we get to keep playing after all the mafia are dead. Just to see who "wins." :D
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 9:37 am

Post by Puzzle »

I remind you all that I'm leaving on thursday until next monday.
If a majority want me to claim, please ask me this night and I will tomorrow. For now, time to go to bed.

However, before leaving, here's a bit of info from my role PM : Herod IS scum, so he has to fake-claim.
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 10:41 am

Post by _Obelix_ »

Puzzle, that could be from your role PM, but also directly from the movie. It was the most obvious choice to be scum by a long margin. In any case, I am for your claim but I would prefer you not to do it unless three or four more people agree on asking you to claim. Otherwise, I would prefer you to stay quiet.
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 11:54 am

Post by Myopia »

Mgm: Can you please provide a url for the game on gl. If your story checks out including the timeing and there are no counterclaims of kid i am inclined to let you of the hook for now.

MoS: Your right. Its poor of me to make a general assumption without being able to back it up. When I get a chance I will have a look at your other games to derive some evidence. If I cant find any then I will withdraw my statement. I still find your aggresive defence of mgm a bit sus though :)

Shadow: Makes a very good point. I am pro-town but my specific win condition is also unstated (I just made the assumption when I read it that it was the usual get rid of all evils).

To everyone I still think that we should indicate whether our roles include a general statement of our dualing ability.
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 12:24 pm

Post by mathcam »

I don't understand what's brought about this massive partial claim crusade this game. I feel like a couple of players are just playing 20 questions with people's roles, and I can't help but think that this is a mafia attempt to appear pro-town while all the while getting a better and better idea of who to kill tonight.

I also am not sure if it's worth claiming if you plan on dueling anyway, Puzzle. I don't really see the MoS suspicioun, and I'm very unsure on Mgm, but Coron and Puzzle are pretty high up there, and Myopia's closing fast.

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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 12:46 pm

Post by Coron »

what mathcam? Do you just have horses racing that are the players?
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 12:51 pm

Post by mathcam »

Actually, I have individual figurines of all of you that I've glued to the shells of my pet turtles. I set them on a racetrack and vote for whoever's figurine is furthest ahead, figuring that
must
be a sign of scumminess.

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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 12:53 pm

Post by Coron »

Sounds like fun.
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 3:30 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Myopia wrote:Mgm: Can you please provide a url for the game on gl. If your story checks out including the timeing and there are no counterclaims of kid i am inclined to let you of the hook for now.

MoS: Your right. Its poor of me to make a general assumption without being able to back it up. When I get a chance I will have a look at your other games to derive some evidence. If I cant find any then I will withdraw my statement. I still find your aggresive defence of mgm a bit sus though :)

Shadow: Makes a very good point. I am pro-town but my specific win condition is also unstated (I just made the assumption when I read it that it was the usual get rid of all evils).

To everyone I still think that we should indicate whether our roles include a general statement of our dualing ability.
Ok, I'm going to make a very poor analogy, but I hope it will show my point well enough. Let's say you are playing in a mafia game(mini), and all of a sudden people start voting for a guy because he "has pink elephants in his pants" (not something related to the theme of the game). Would you not attempt to point out why this doesn't make sense and is a bad reason to lynch said person? And if they continued making accusitions and piling on the votes, would you not persist in your "defense" of said person, although you are really more attacking the logic behind the votes on him rather than protecting him. You have no knowledge of said person's alignment, and you are pro-town. And then if the players that were attacking said victim turned on you for "defending" him, would you not feel that their suspicions were a bit unjustified? For the most part, that is how the game has been for me. I disagreed with the reasoning against Mgm from the start, and have said so. I never attempted to clear Mgm, but simply said that the reasons that were fabricated against him were crap. When his bandwagon kept growing for no apparent reason, I persisted in my attacks, hoping to knock some sense into all of you. Now, I'm being accused of defending Mgm when I was really only disagreeing with the tactics used to try and lynch him. It's as common of a mafia tactic to use crap logic against someone to build a bandwagon against someone else who attacks said reasoning as it is to defend your scum buddies as persistently as I have "protected" Mgm, who is not my scum buddy, by the simple fact that I am not scum. I hope that clears up how I feel a bit more for you. That is also why I'm voting for Puzzle. He (and others)used crap logic to build a bandwagon on Mgm, and now that someone has actively opposed his crap, he turns to them in an attempt to build a new bandwagon.
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 4:56 pm

Post by SquareKnight »

I'd like to apologize for implying that MoS's defense would only be scummy if Mgm were scum. That wasn't really accurate, as Mgm pointed out.
Puzzle wrote: - Where do I say that MoS said that MGM was innocent ?
Not exactly those words, but...
Puzzle[94] wrote:However, it's not a problem : Unvote MGM, vote Mastermind of Sin.
It's not because someone admits being scummy that he isn't. Your logic, from the beginning, is much more flawed than Axelrod's.
Emphasis added. Now, I assumed that "It's not because someone admits being scummy that he isn't" was being offered up as justifaction for the second statement, that MoS's logic was flawed. I think you were saying that MoS's logic involved that assumption. Since MoS's logic was about Mgm's behavior, I assumed that's what we were talking about.

I apologize if that paragraph was a bit convoluted. I'm ill this week, so I may not be at my most coherent.
Puzzle wrote:+ anything that gets the town closer to night is not in our interest.
Since that was in reference to me, are you saying that my voting for you was scummy? 'cause two votes at six to lynch is totally an out of control bandwagon, right?

Now, a bandwagon has developed since then, but I think it has had perfectly just cause.

I'd also like to see Coron and Puzzle duel. I'm not sure Coron is scum, but, to be honest, I'm not getting really good vibes about him being an asset to the town, either. I don't really want to turn Day One into a referendum on playing styles, but...Coron hasn't shown any flexibility in his position, nor has he convinced me that his position is worth holding. Furthermore, his steadfast refusal to contribute anything to the game doesn't help anyone at all, and could just be a way to avoid publicly stating any opinions until he can figure out what won't get him into trouble later.

Of course, if he decides to start playing mafia, that could change. I await that moment in breathless anticipation.
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 8:28 pm

Post by Mgm »

I've got my vote on you Puzzle, so consider me one of the people who want you to claim.
_Obelix_ wrote:MGM, does your role PM say anything about your dueling ability? If so, just say yes, do not tell us what it says.

Coron, just to make it clear: I would like YOU specifically to claim, since I find your attitude really scummy. To reinforce my petition,
Vote: Coron
It might, but the wording is ambiguous enough to make me unsure on what it says.

The GL isn't currently loading for me, so Myopia will have to wait a little longer for a link to the other game.
Puzzle wrote:If I was to duel, I think I would then rather go for MoS, as I really have bigger scummy vibes from him than from even Coron. As he highly suspects me, I think it makes sense.
And were are these scummy vibes coming from? Maybe this?
Axelrod wrote:I'd pick MOS and Coron to duel at this point. One possibe way to read MOS's strong defense of Mgm, is that he's a mafia that "knew" Mgm was innocent, and was trying to make himself look better for when he is shown to be "right" later on. Of course, he might just have felt Mgm was innocent too. No strong vibes from anyone else.
Let's assume Occam's Razor for now. You can always find something to indicate someone's scummy, but this is pure speculation. You can just as easily assume he was protecting me from the crap logic that was thrown at me as he says.
mathcam wrote:I also am not sure if it's worth claiming if you plan on dueling anyway, Puzzle. I don't really see the MoS suspicioun, and I'm very unsure on Mgm, but Coron and Puzzle are pretty high up there, and Myopia's closing fast.
A bunch of people is starting to believe my claim and you are still "very unsure" about me, mathcam. Would you mind elaborating on those concerns?
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 8:50 pm

Post by Mgm »

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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Tue May 03, 2005 11:39 pm

Post by Puzzle »

As I'm quite popular, I'll claim Ellen : "The Lady", Sharon Stone,... I am here to avenge my father, who I killed when forced by an outlaw (Herod), when I was a young girl.
I think this claim is strong enough to clear me, unless counter-claimed, which is why I didn't hesitate to get pushy, from the beginning.

And The Shadow's analysis is coherent with what I have. That makes him highly unlikely to be scum in my eyes, as he was the first to come up with it.

So, as far as I am concerned, the following look good :
- myself, unless counter-claimed.
- The Shadow
- Axelrod : acting in favor of a stepped process towards name claims.
and at a lesser degree :
- Obelix : constructive.
- Mgm : main character claim. If two others than Obelix can confirm that he is a goodie in the movie, that will look good for him.

I think that if we can clear up to five townies, then we should be in a strong position for this game, by forcing unclear ones to duel. Then, we can inspect the survivors and force them to duel again tomorrow.
Claiming wouldn't necessarily expose the doc, but even if it did, I think it could still be worth it. After all, with the duel system, the doc ability seem diminished in power. That is subject to discussion and the doc's own appreciation though.

Regarding Squareknight : it's true that a second vote is not really getting us much closer to night, scrap that comment.

So, who still wants me to duel Coron ?
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 1:54 am

Post by Axelrod »

Puzzle: I wondered whether you might be the Lady when you made that remark about "knowing" Herod was in the game. That claim is certainly sufficient for me, not that you were high on my "suspicio" meter to begin with.

You should only duel at this point if your role gives you an advantage. But I'd go so far as to say that if your role does give you that advantage, you should probably go ahead and challange right now, as you may not live through the night.

Otherwise I'd stick with my position of having MOS and Coron duel it out.
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 2:10 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

unvote, vote: Axelrod


moving back to my second(now first) suspicion
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 2:12 am

Post by Puzzle »

I'm actually itching to go for MoS. Coron and MoS are the most suspicious for me right now, and I'd like to have their claims.

We already know that Coron refuses to claim. Who else is ready to push for MoS to ?
For now, I'll ask Thoth to come up with reasons why I should be voting for him, and I'd like him to respond to those.
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 2:19 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Puzzle, perhaps more people would be on your side if you actually had valid reasoning for attacking me. You and Axelrod have been pushing for my lynch, without supplying much reasoning for it. What little reasoning you had, I've already defended against and fully explain my actions. You didn't even bother posting a rebuttal to my defense, which is generally a sign that you don't have one, yet you still persist in attacking while you have no reasoning to base your attacks on. If you read back, your posts keep talking about how you want me to claim and how you think I should duel people, and the same goes for axelrod. However, you always avoid giving a valid reason for this, since the one you used before has already been answered. I note that once the crap bandwagon on Mgm failed, both Puzzle and Axelrod came up with false reasoning(and very little reasoning at that) to try and get another bandwagon going on me.
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