Mini 183: Quick and the Dead - Town Wins!


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 3:27 am

Post by _Obelix_ »

Unless there is a counterclaim, I believe Puzzle is cleared (Note how Cort was also a simple townie, even though he was a good fighter too). I would nonetheless like you to answer this:
Puzzle wrote:And The Shadow's analysis is coherent with what I have. That makes him highly unlikely to be scum in my eyes, as he was the first to come up with it.
What analysis are you referring to? The bit about the only winner is the last standing man? Or the one about the Kid being mafia?

I will have to reiterate my vote on Coron. His contribution to this point is null, and he refuses to increase it (because we have not started to play mafia yet). Anyways, I think it would be interesting to have a duel involving him. What I am not so sure about is who should be his opponent. Axelrod and Puzzle seem to be pushing too agressively towards MoS. I find that a bit strange, but with Puzzle virtually cleared at this point I don´t know what to think.
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 3:32 am

Post by _Obelix_ »

Unless there is a counterclaim, I believe Puzzle is cleared (Note how Cort was also a simple townie, even though he was a good fighter too). I would nonetheless like you to answer this:
Puzzle wrote:And The Shadow's analysis is coherent with what I have. That makes him highly unlikely to be scum in my eyes, as he was the first to come up with it.
What analysis are you referring to? The bit about the only winner is the last standing man? Or the one about the Kid being mafia?

I will have to reiterate my vote on Coron. His contribution to this point is null, and he refuses to increase it (because we have not started to play mafia yet). Anyways, I think it would be interesting to have a duel involving him. What I am not so sure about is who should be his opponent. Axelrod and Puzzle seem to be pushing too agressively towards MoS. I find that a bit strange, but with Puzzle virtually cleared at this point I don´t know what to think.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 3:47 am

Post by Puzzle »

:cry:

Your post #48 :
I answer in mine #57 : you justify your vote on me by saying mine on MGM was motivated by rancor. I demonstrated it was false.
Where is your answer to it ?

Your post #93 :
you unvote and vote Axelrod, saying that screwing up on one's claim for 4 days is normal and should not be doubted. Although this wasn't addressed to me, I disagreed (and still do) in my post #94 and thought (and still do) that no townie would try to let MGM go without some more investigation.
MGM himself admitted he looked fishy at the time (see post #95).
Where is your answer to it ?

Your post #125 :
"voting for Axelrod wasn't worth it quite yet" : why did you then ?
You claim that my arguments against MGM haven't been substantial at all : how have they not ?
You "smell scum looking for an excuse to further a bandwagon" : how are your posts not smelling so ?
"Puzzle has been a bit over-obsessive with suggesting ways for us to kill each other off" : opinion, not justification. How about answering to my plan objectively instead of giving unfounded feelings ?
"Suggestion : ..." : I concurred and claimed. I think it's time for you to claim. Let's see what the others say.
To sum up, I don't see anything concrete to answer in this post, except your suggestion.

Your post #141 :
Here is my answer :
Mastermind of Sin wrote:Ok, I'm going to make a very poor analogy, but I hope it will show my point well enough. Let's say you are playing in a mafia game(mini), and all of a sudden people start voting for a guy because he "has pink elephants in his pants" (not something related to the theme of the game). Would you not attempt to point out why this doesn't make sense and is a bad reason to lynch said person?
- There is a difference between lynching a person and pushing for his claim.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:And if they continued making accusitions and piling on the votes, would you not persist in your "defense" of said person, although you are really more attacking the logic behind the votes on him rather than protecting him.
- You, yourself, admitted flaws in the "knowledge" of MGM that there was a failsafe in your post #48. Why did you want to defend MGM so firmly, then ?
Mastermind of Sin wrote:You have no knowledge of said person's alignment, and you are pro-town.
- Taken from your potential viewpoint : we cannot take this as granted.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:And then if the players that were attacking said victim turned on you for "defending" him, would you not feel that their suspicions were a bit unjustified?
- When you admit that there are flaws in someone's posts and still vehemently defend him, well yes, that doesn't stack up for me.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:I disagreed with the reasoning against Mgm from the start, and have said so. I never attempted to clear Mgm, but simply said that the reasons that were fabricated against him were crap. When his bandwagon kept growing for no apparent reason, I persisted in my attacks, hoping to knock some sense into all of you.
- Once again, post #48, you admitted that his "knowledge" wasn't solid.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:Now, I'm being accused of defending Mgm when I was really only disagreeing with the tactics used to try and lynch him.
- There is a difference between lynching a person and pushing for his claim.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:It's as common of a mafia tactic to use crap logic against someone to build a bandwagon against someone else who attacks said reasoning as it is to defend your scum buddies as persistently as I have "protected" Mgm, who is not my scum buddy, by the simple fact that I am not scum.
- and it's a common Mafia tactic to protect a townie in difficulty, so that :
- if the townie gets lynched later, they'll say : "See, I told you...".
- the townie will feel confident about the guy who defended him and may return the favor, basic psychology.
Mastermind of Sin wrote:I hope that clears up how I feel a bit more for you. That is also why I'm voting for Puzzle. He (and others)used crap logic to build a bandwagon on Mgm, and now that someone has actively opposed his crap, he turns to them in an attempt to build a new bandwagon.
I am a bit pushy on the strategy I believe in, but show me how my logic is crap. I still fail to see a proper argument against it.


Your post #147 :
I hadn't seen before posting mine #148.
Still, the same applies to Axelrod and me. Show how the strategy is bad before trying to extort claims from others, please.

Your post #149 :
See above.

:cry:


@ Obelix : I was referring about the last man standing thing. I do not share this purpose, but the way mine has been presented is indeed similar to his.
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 8:38 am

Post by Zippy »

puzzle...

do you have enhanced dueling ability...
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 9:14 am

Post by Coron »

Oh actually know we have started playing mafia now. I'll contribute more in a bit(hopefully later today).
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 9:16 am

Post by Axelrod »

Since I didn't do this yet:

Unvote: Mgm

Vote: Coron


Back to you, sir. Are we playing yet?
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 9:36 am

Post by Coron »

I told you already, yes.
I'm already like guarunteed dueling today, so.
Let's make sure we aren't lynching someone immediately after a duel, not that we'll have that problem today.
The majority needs to pick me an opponent, not vote me, makes more sense for me to duel first.
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 11:40 am

Post by NanookTheWolf »

Vote Count:


3 - Coron (Zippy, _Obelix_, Axelrod)
3 - Puzzle (Myopia, Squareknight, MgM)
2 - Mastermind of Sin (Coron, Puzzle)
1 - MgM (TheShadow)
1 - Axelrod (Mastermind of Sin)

Not Voting: Mathcam


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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 11:49 am

Post by NanookTheWolf »

Puzzle wrote:As I'm quite popular, I'll claim Ellen : "The Lady", Sharon Stone,... I am here to avenge my father, who I killed when forced by an outlaw (Herod), when I was a young girl.
Due to the quote above you are now a serial killer. Revealing who you were to the town now makes you a threat which in turn makes you even more eager to kill ... Each night submit to me the name of a fighter to whom you wish to annialate ... You are in this alone even more so then before.
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 12:27 pm

Post by Coron »

ummm holy shit mod mistake?
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 12:27 pm

Post by Myopia »

Ugh lost a big post going into the mgm vs puzzle vs mos thing and where we are on mass claims.

Ill try and summarise.

Ill first
unvote puzzle
which was my random vote I forgot about.

Thanks mgm Ill check out the link. As Ive said Ill feel alot better about accepting your claim if I can verify the timing of the other game.

Mos the pink elephant analogy doesnt hold. What I found scummy about your play was your strident defence of mgm after he admitted that hed made a mistake. You obviously thought that forgetting your role was reasonable. Everyone else did not. Hell even mgm when he posted said ooops this is going to get me votes. It wasnt that you didnt leap in and start voting mgm that was the problem or the fact of the defence itself. Its that you keep maintaing that there was no validity to the anti-mgm argument at all when pretty much the whole rest of the game did.

With the mass-claim situation. What is currently on the table:

- proposed by axlerod - everyone state whether they are a "named" role or generic

- proposed by me - we indicate whether our role indicates our duelling ability.

I dont think you can really classify either of these proposals as a mass-claim.

I am also finding suspicious the players that keep trying to blow that up into something it isnt. Mathcams referred to a "mass-claim crusade"!

Ive found that really really common on this site (although part of the problem I guess is that people arent often clear what they are proposing with a claim).

Ive also noted a marked propensity on this site for people to get attacked when they suggest mass-claims (of any kind). Id love to know how many people raising the issue are pro-town and how many of the people attacking them are scum (or vice versa).

I dont think that its really beyond dispute that an uninformed mass-role claim is simply a dangerous idea. But people hardly ever suggest that and they often get attacked as if they do. What does annoy me sometimes it that people get attacked just for wanting to talk about it and I think that invariably just helps the scum.

With a mass-claim we can either mass name claim (say the name of our role only) or mass role claim (say full details of our role).

Obviously the advantage of mass claims is the potential to confirm innocents and focus on the shady claims. If a scum doesnt have a "safe claim" then they have to lie and everytime they lie there is increased potential for that lie to be found out.

The main disadvantage just as obviously is the potential that the scum are better able to target the players with power roles. Also I guess you could call it a disadvantage if the setup is such that the advantage you thought you would derive is not as great as you thought (if mafia have lots of safe claims then its still going to be hard to pick them out).

Rather than take the position "ooh hes suggested a mass-claims he must be scum lets lynch him" the proper approach should be to discuss whether the advantages are likely to outweigh the disadvantages in the particular case.

I think all considerations get magnified for a theme game. Obviously a theme game is based on the individual theme. This allows people to use their own knowledge of the theme as an additional tool to analyse claims. If the game closely follows the theme you might even be able to confirm innocents via name claims and resolving any counterclaims.

So what does this all mean here?

Firstly, theres no harm in talking about this. And noone is saying we should mass-claim as of right now.

Secondly, this set-up may well be amenable to a mass claim. We have what appears to be a strong central theme and via the dualing mechanism a quick way to resolve shady claims without going to night or lynching someone.

Thirdly, noone (aside from coron and he hasnt said why) has indicated that they have problems with what has been proposed. If people do have concerns can they raise them.

As for my own position (before I get attacked for pushing the "crusade") as Ive said Im against a mass name or role claim until we know more. Id like to get some idea of how many safe claims the scum have. In particular I think working out how many "named" characters we have will give us some indication of that.
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 12:30 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

unvote, vote: Puzzle


well, I guess he's not pro-town anymore.
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 12:32 pm

Post by Myopia »

Um missed the whole sk thing......

Im very confused. We turn into sk's if we claim or just puzzle?
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 1:57 pm

Post by The Shadow »

hmm....

MgM did not. That means

A: Mgm is lying about his role.
or
B: It only affects The Lady.

I'm inclined to go with B at the moment because there's been no counterclaim, but I don't know. I think lynching Puzzle today is a necessity. Of course we still could have him duel someone...any ideas on that?
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 2:01 pm

Post by Coron »

Was... that intentionally in thread?
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 2:09 pm

Post by Axelrod »

Puzzle is the lynch. Has to be at this point. No other play makes sense, including letting him duel and possibly kill a townie before he goes.

Unvote

Vote: Puzzle


I wonder if Nanook just screwed up, or if Puzzle had a role restriction on claiming which he violated and this is his punishment. In a way it's too bad Puzzle is out of town now and can't clarify anything.

If we want anyone else to duel anyone we should do it soon. I have realized it's hard to convince two other people to duel, however, especially when you are calling them both suspicious. Um, Coron, would you please challange MOS? Um, MOS, same request.

Why don't I think that is going to work?
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 2:10 pm

Post by Axelrod »

Puzzle is the lynch. Has to be at this point. No other play makes sense, including letting him duel and possibly kill a townie before he goes.

Unvote

Vote: Puzzle


I wonder if Nanook just screwed up, or if Puzzle had a role restriction on claiming which he violated and this is his punishment. In a way it's too bad Puzzle is out of town now and can't clarify anything.

If we want anyone else to duel anyone we should do it soon. I have realized it's hard to convince two other people to duel, however, especially when you are calling them both suspicious. Um, Coron, would you please challange MOS? Um, MOS, same request.

Why don't I think that is going to work?
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 2:55 pm

Post by SquareKnight »

Well, holy crap.

We have someone who must die. I see no reason to duel today, really. The prospective duelists will probably still be alive tomorrow and, if not, we've only lost our most suspicious townies. Not a big deal in my opinion. I'm in favor of a simple lynch here.

confirm vote:
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 4:02 pm

Post by Myopia »

Well not sure if we can stop puzzle from duelling someone if he wants.

Maybe hes amenable to duelling someone and intentionally losing preserving our lynch?

Very weird - puzzle assuming your still talking is there something in your pm about a posting violation? What was your win condition prior to you becoming a pychopathic sk?
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 4:42 pm

Post by NanookTheWolf »

Ok, I obviously just made a HUGE mistake ... I am really at a loss at this point as what to do. I'm sorry, but I may have to close this game now, and either A. Start a new game with the same players, but re-randomize the roles (I will obviously have to modify some things, as some will have more knowledge then others on the setup), B. Make this an open setup, and let the game continue as is, C. Simply close the game, D. Simply Continue (Which really isn't fair considering Puzzle.

If you guys would like, take a vote on this, and I will try to talk to Meme in reference to what I should do.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 4:54 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

vote: anything BUT C
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 5:16 pm

Post by Axelrod »

Hmmmm, dilemma. Since it was a mistake, can you just take it back at this point? Make Puzzle no longer a SK. Yes, this has the effect of "confirming" him as townie, but most of us were not doubting the claim to begin with, and it seems to cause the least disruption.

To "make this up" to the mafia, if you feel the need to do that, you could go straight to night right now. We don't get a lynch, the mafia get another kill. If they want, they can just kill Puzzle since he's basically confirmed, but that's fairer than you mod-killing him.

Either that or restart completely and throw flavor out the window--i.e., in the next game make no correlation between role and mafianess (not that I know for certain you did it this game). Then you could keep mostly the same roles, but there would be no guarantee what side they were on.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 5:37 pm

Post by Myopia »

Any re-do is messy.

Revert him to townie. Without a counterclaim he was pretty much a confirmed innocent anyway.

Dont care if its unfair to the mafia :)

Seriously I dont think they have been harmed substantially or at all. If you think they have take us straight to night as axlerod suggests.
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Wed May 04, 2005 7:54 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

I have one problem with that. I'm not so sure that Puzzle was pro-town in the first place, and the way the mod worded the mistake post, it makes me think he might have been scum somehow. Maybe I'm just paranoid, though. After more thought, I think A is probably our best choice, except that the mod will have to perhaps change the mechanics of puzzle's role slightly so that we don't auto-lynch whoever has that role the next time.
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Thu May 05, 2005 12:37 am

Post by Coron »

See, I'd never turn into a serial killer by claiming :P
I say A
I don't really like open set ups.
I don't want to just abandon this game.
It wouldn't be fair to just continue.
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