[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[mith]

Max, I like the basic idea, though not the implementation... for one thing, if 2:2:9 is considered "fair" (I still need to run numbers on that, huh), adding the potential for several power roles while only dropping the number of pro-town players by one may nudge things too far in the town's favor (maybe not, though; perhaps all it does it make it more likely one group will get wiped out quickly, allowing the other side to win more often... in which case it's more a swinginess problem than one of balance).

Perhaps something to differentiate the scumgroups would be appropriate - if you have the potentail for the anti-Mafia town powers to be stronger than the anti-Werewolf powers (or vice versa), perhaps also include the possibility of Mafia powers (or Werewolf powers). Or, you could take it a step further and have a different set of possible town powers assigned to each scumgroup... make the Tracker a Werewolf-only possibility, for example.

[FC Groningen]

originally put this in wrong place

Game I plan to run some day

2 goons
8 townies
1 town doctor
1 mafia traitor - doesn't know scum and scum don't know him but he wins with scum

after players are randomly given these roles i will randomly give out neighbor assignments

Roll dice among all players. first person rolled is in neighbor group 1 along with his other role. Second person rolled is also in neighbor group 1 along with whatever role they already are. Do this 3 times for a total of 3 neighbor groups. Don't think I'll allow a player to be in multiple neighbor groups. I think the mentioned power roles combined with random neighboring should be fairly balanced and interesting in terms of strategies you could organize. Only way traitor gets to talk to and find out who is scum is by luck and doctor could find a good team mate could find out alot about a buddy or a teamate. Just got to figure out if i should allow mafia to be randomly neighbors with mafia. I think they should be allowed should luck make it happen. Afterall is they are together other pairs would likly go to town and that may keep things interesting.

I need any criticism and or snappy titles you can think of

Not sure how this belongs here. Seeing the Mr. Rogers name and idea I feel like calling the game:
Won't you be my neighbor?


@FC Groningen: That game is not normal. It belongs under theme games

My bad, will post it in a suitable topic.

[farside22]

Max, I like the basic idea, though not the implementation... for one thing, if 2:2:9 is considered "fair" (I still need to run numbers on that, huh), adding the potential for several power roles while only dropping the number of pro-town players by one may nudge things too far in the town's favor (maybe not, though; perhaps all it does it make it more likely one group will get wiped out quickly, allowing the other side to win more often... in which case it's more a swinginess problem than one of balance).

Perhaps something to differentiate the scumgroups would be appropriate - if you have the potentail for the anti-Mafia town powers to be stronger than the anti-Werewolf powers (or vice versa), perhaps also include the possibility of Mafia powers (or Werewolf powers). Or, you could take it a step further and have a different set of possible town powers assigned to each scumgroup... make the Tracker a Werewolf-only possibility, for example.

So make a tracker role that could be for either faction or both factions?
Maybe one tracker (wolf) one RB (mafia) Or is that too over powered for the scum then?

[imaginality]

Taking a leaf from F11, maybe mafia get an RB if there are either zero or two power roles in the game with the ability to target their faction? And same for werewolves?

[Mr. Rogers]

Well its a open setup and yet also a new theme so i was not sure which topic it should go in. As I will likly run it as a marathon one day while using this account I think I will use the name you mentioned Farside

Also to those not in the know. Yes I am PokerFace

[Max]

Perhaps something to differentiate the scumgroups would be appropriate - if you have the potentail for the anti-Mafia town powers to be stronger than the anti-Werewolf powers (or vice versa), perhaps also include the possibility of Mafia powers (or Werewolf powers). Or, you could take it a step further and have a different set of possible town powers assigned to each scumgroup... make the Tracker a Werewolf-only possibility, for example.

2 Mafia
2 Werewolves
8 Town

0-2 of (Cop, Human Tracker, Doctor)
0-2 of (Seer, Animal Tracker, Sorcerer)

Same odds however:
- Once powers generated they are randomly allocated to either town or the other scum group.

So Cop can be Werewolf or town.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I'm currently in Newbie Mafia 934 and Day 1 looks to end very soon. I'm also planning to join a Mafia game here outside of the Newbie Mafia's. Should I join the Large Normal Mafia game or am I better suited for Little Italy first?

Edit: Nevermind, I'm signing up for an Small Normal Game.

[farside22]

Let's do follow the cop now!

I just keep looking at this game and it just doesn't seem balanced. a 1 shot cop. 2 princess that are millers. Once a princess is lynched the town losses. I just feel this is too strongly in favor of the scum team.

[Mr. Flay]

Moved from Open Queue at farside's request:

If RITP is broken/unbalanced, that's fine to remove it, though I have to wonder why this fact didn't come out in the setup discussion. And I only see it played once on-site, in Open 120, which was hardly a "cakewalk" from my fast scan (zwet is a wildcard in roles that don't want to be lynched). Can you elaborate?

AITP, though it may be a beautifully designed game, just isn't Mafia. I have yet to see a game of it that looked anything like Mafia, its mechanics are totally different, and it encourages very different play. Can someone point me to a game of AITP (since the first one) that plays like Mafia? Open 178 doesn't, as even the Assassin calls himself the "uninformed minority". Marathon 2009 AITP 1 certainly doesn't. Open 73 blew up. Open 89 supports my analysis of the setup.

::edit::

AITP 3 from Marathon 2009 looks kinda like mafia, except of course that it inverts the factions. Still, you just got lucky, which is pretty much what the game boils down to. The Mafia is screwed from the get-go, in that they have ONE chance to win under their control and a raft of ways to screw up. I think people like the setup because 90% of the time, you're not the Assassin!

I know that "in practice" mith's requirement that Open Games should be Normal is being broken right left and center, but the lone gunman version of AITP doesn't even have an Informed Minority Faction, which has always been one of mith's core requirements for ANY Mafia game. And, of course, he's Uninformed! Even Kelly Chen, who created the setup, says so. So why you keep claiming it's Mafia is beyond me...

[Ether]

For what it's worth, I complained about RitP in the Open Setup Certification Group in this post; I hadn't noticed it when it was in the setup discussion thread until it was too late and there was one in Little Italy.

Do you really think it's fair that scum got that close to winning that many times, only to have it snatched away because they were an uninformed majority? Do you really think a game like that would be

fun?

Have you ever actually played AitP as an assassin? I have (though not on-site), and it sure as hell ain't luck. It's actually pretty fun, since there's an informed opposing faction to crack. (I don't think AitP is mafia, though, so I'll stay out of that argument.)

[animorpherv1]

I don't think AitP is mafia, though, so I'll stay out of that argument.

Yet you consider it Mafia Enought to run as an Open?

[Yosarian2]

The Mafia is screwed from the get-go, in that they have ONE chance to win under their control and a raft of ways to screw up.

No, not at all. The mafia has two different ways to win; the way scum can win any game, by getting to endgame with 1 scum vs. 1 town. (Or "get to a 2 scum/3 town" in the large version.) Basically, fi the scum dosn't get lynched, he wins. Or, the scum can figure out who the king is (which has absolutly nothing to do with luck, by the way). Or, usually, some combination of the two; the longer the scum avoids being lynched, the higher his odds are of shooting the king.

It can be balanced pretty well (depending on the numbers), and any town that tries to play by lynching randomly is probably going to lose most of the time. The town really needs to find and lynch the scum early in order to have a good chance of winning, and even then the scum has a chance.

I think people like the setup because 90% of the time, you're not the Assassin!

Having played as both town and assassin, I think assassin is usually easier.

the lone gunman version of AITP doesn't even have an Informed Minority Faction, which has always been one of mith's core requirements for ANY Mafia game. And, of course, he's Uninformed! Even Kelly Chen, who created the setup, says so. So why you keep claiming it's Mafia is beyond me...

(shrug) Sure, it's mafia, just like the 1 scum/9 town setup is mafia. (And I think Jeep and mith both played in that game, if I remember correctly). It's a variant, certainly. And, again, I think the large version with a 2-man scumgroup is probably the better version.

[Ether]

Yet you consider it Mafia Enought to run as an Open?

I don't think Open is the ideal queue for it, but to be honest, it's a fun setup anyway and I like the fact that it's getting regularly run at all. You can campaign against it if you'd like. I'm just here to worry about the players' experience and shit.

[mith]

I feel like I'm being misquoted on *both* sides. (Ok, not quite misquoted, but my name is being dropped.)

Here's what I've said/done:

1. Established as one of the current

Normal

requirements than the game must contain a Mafia

Group

.
2. Stated that Open Games should meet the requirements of Normal Games in general, though accepting that on occasion we have bent a rule in order to admit a setup which is especially suited to run in the Open Queue - for example, the Vengeful Townie is arguably not a "normal" role, nor is the mechanic of the scum losing if the Godfather is lynched, but obviously the Open Queue is the best place for repeat Vengeful Games.
3. Played in a

Closed

setup which happened to have only one scum in it. And that scum's role was "Serial Killer", not "Mafia", IIRC.
4. Said that games with only one "Mafia" aren't really games of "Mafia", they are games of "Serial Killer", which has many of the qualities of "Mafia" but does not have the group dynamic. It is nevertheless a perfectly valid variant/game.

FWIW, I'll add:

5. I've played one game of AitP - FtF, as the Assassin, and won (by lynching all the Guards). I like the game.
6. It really isn't Mafia, and probably shouldn't be in the Open Queue.

[animorpherv1]

I disagree that games with One "Mafia" is Mafia. IMO, if you get Mafia, you are Mafia with a group of people, untill either you or some of them die.

[Yosarian2]

3. Played in a

Closed

setup which happened to have only one scum in it. And that scum's role was "Serial Killer", not "Mafia", IIRC.

(nods)

If you think AITP isn't normal enough to be considered an "open game" under current rules or whatever, that's fine, although it'd be kind of a shame because I think the open queau is a good place to run "games that have a simple concept, are open, that don't require new mod creativity in setup design, and that a lot of people want to play".

I just disagree with the idea that a game with only one scum isn't "mafia" at all; I really do think that, for all intents and purposes, a game with just a SK works pretty much the same way any other mafia game does.

[Mr. Flay]

6. It really isn't Mafia, and probably shouldn't be in the Open Queue.

Would you allow it in Mish-Mash, or is it in a no-man's land?

[ooba]

Night Watch Mafia: 3 Mafia Goons, 1 Role Cop (detects Goons as "vanilla"), 2 Watchers, 1 Hider, 5 Townies

Think this might favor town a lot with mass claim if scum do not hit a watcher in the night.

I looked at the original discussion thread and there wasn't any for this game - just got nominated. Tried finding the link to a game played with this setup - can someone give me the link?

Best plan for town is for
a) Watchers to claim on D1
b) Hider to claim and publicly announce his target before every night

Each watcher independently chooses to watch either the target of the hider or the other watcher.
Chances of scum getting caught if they hit watcher=p (Say 50%)
Chances of scum getting caught if they hit target=1-(1-p)^2=75%

If hider does not die, then you get a cleared innocent.
If hider dies (and his target does not), then you know his target was scum.

Either way, I see one goon being sacrificed for the hider(plus maybe one townie) and one goon for the set of watchers. I haven't even taken the role cop into consideration but he also increases cleared innocents by 1.

It sort of becomes like prisoners dilemna and gives the town good odds. I think Mafia should have a roleblocker.

So it should be
Night Watch Mafia: 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Role Cop (detects Goons as "vanilla"), 2 Watchers, 1 Hider, 5 Townies

[Chronopie]

So called optimal + An RB =/= Good idea.

You'd see one watcher RB'd and the other Nk'd N1

Hider + whoever he hid behind Nk'd N2 (or the other watcher)

[Beefster]

New idea?

Psychic Mafia

2 Telepathic Mafia Goons (day talk and night talk)
2 Telepathic Twins (Freemasons that can day talk and night talk)
1 Lie Detector
1 Vision Injector (flavored Friendly Neighbor)
6 Vanilla Townies
---Day Start---

That should work, but it might need an extra goon for balance.

[yabbaguy]

Lie Detector as in

Lie Detector

You may choose one post or part of a post each Night, and I will, if possible, tell you whether the selection is wholly true or partially false.

this?

And Vision Injector I'm drawing a blank on what its PM would be.

[Elscouta]

New idea?

Psychic Mafia

2 Telepathic Mafia Goons (day talk and night talk)
2 Telepathic Twins (Freemasons that can day talk and night talk)
1 Lie Detector
1 Vision Injector (flavored Friendly Neighbor)
6 Vanilla Townies
---Day Start---

That should work, but it might need an extra goon for balance.

If this is open, all players would start the game saying "I'm town", making the lie detector a cop.

[Hoopla]

I don't have a name lined up yet, but I was thinking about this yesterday;

- There are four powerroles; Jailkeeper, 1-shot-vig, Tracker, Role-Cop

- Three of these roles are chosen randomly.

- Of those three, the town gets two, and scum gets one (also determined randomly)

- 2 mafia vs. 8 townies, Daystart

My initial thoughts are there aren't any blindingly obvious breaking strategies. Even the potency of scum gaining the 1-shot-vig is minimalised by starting with even numbers, so a double-kill doesn't remove one of the three town mislynches. I randomly generated a few set-ups using this formula and I didn't see any obviously unbalanced games - this is probably due to each role having town and scum use.

But I'm worried there might be breaking strategies that emerge from the

amount

of powerroles being known in the game - an early scum PR lynch creates two confirmed town PR's which would be very hard to come back from. I wouldn't mind someone probing this concern further than I did, because it feels exploitable.

The obvious solution (if there is a problem), is to include additional options with fluctuating amounts of PR's, but I feel it is unwanted complexity, when the appeal to me is the very managable amount of scenarios possible. I don't want to increase that number too much.

I wouldn't mind some thoughts on this though.

[animorpherv1]

Maybe 0-3 PRs, where if there are 2 or 3, Scum get one?

[ooba]

I don't have a name lined up yet, but I was thinking about this yesterday;

- There are four powerroles; Jailkeeper, 1-shot-vig, Tracker, Role-Cop

- Three of these roles are chosen randomly.

- Of those three, the town gets two, and scum gets one (also determined randomly)

- 2 mafia vs. 8 townies, Daystart

My initial thoughts are there aren't any blindingly obvious breaking strategies. Even the potency of scum gaining the 1-shot-vig is minimalised by starting with even numbers, so a double-kill doesn't remove one of the three town mislynches. I randomly generated a few set-ups using this formula and I didn't see any obviously unbalanced games - this is probably due to each role having town and scum use.

But I'm worried there might be breaking strategies that emerge from the

amount

of powerroles being known in the game - an early scum PR lynch creates two confirmed town PR's which would be very hard to come back from. I wouldn't mind someone probing this concern further than I did, because it feels exploitable.

The obvious solution (if there is a problem), is to include additional options with fluctuating amounts of PR's, but I feel it is unwanted complexity, when the appeal to me is the very managable amount of scenarios possible. I don't want to increase that number too much.

I wouldn't mind some thoughts on this though.

Well if scum is lynched D1, then its pretty bad for them - esp. if the powerless goon is lynched.

Assuming the powerless goon is lynched and a night kill on townie occurs, the best strategy for the town is to mass claim.
- Scum cannot claim his power role because then all the town has to do is to lynch the three powerroles in a row
- If Rolecop was on the town side, he clears a townie on N1 (but this happens only in the case of the powerless goon being lynched)
- If JK was on the town side, he clears a townie on N1 (since a kill happened; I am assuming JK's target cannot perform his night actions)
- So can a tracker

So there's a good chance you'll have 2-4 confirmed townies at the end of N1 (out of 7/8) if one of the scum is lynched depending on which roles are there on the town side.