A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[Axelrod]

Posts are not numbered anymore? That's going to be awful.

Finished my re-read, and boy have a got an awesome case for you guys. Witness the following:

Vote: Richard

Hey look, I just left the RVS, no random votes will be accepted from here on out without perfect reasoning. You know why? Because I said so and because I am Great and Badass alligned.

Raise: CryMeABadassRiver

CMAR makes a case on Richard and tries to drag us out of RVS, buying him some distancing and some town-cred. He doesn't actually have any reason to suspect the Richard wagon will actually go all the way, its still RVS.

This part isn't really directed at me, but calling this post a "case" that CMAR is making against Richard appears to be way, way overstating the matter. All this is is a vote. It's a bandwagon vote or a joke vote or a vote of suspicion, but it is in no way a "case."

Vote: Super Smash Bros Fan.

You've never played a game with me so the fact that you know I like long posts indicates you've been heavily Wiki studying other players.

But, that's a good thing, right?

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

Raise: CryMeABadassRiver

Then Axelrod raises CMAR, but makes no comment on the CMAR case on Richard. Due to Dripp's continued probbing of Richard plus the policy lynch link he brought up, Richard's wagon takes off. CMAR gets really quiet. Pretty much Dripp and others do all the rest of the work from here.

See, what "case" are you talking about that I am suspiciously not commenting about? There was no case, just a vote, and my reason for Raising CMAR at that time had nothing to do with his vote (note - I'm not following the vote) but mainly because I thought his post was funny.

Welcome Hasdgfas!

Unvote;

Vote: Hasdgfas

Sorry, but Dr. Modem was scummy and then quit, so you are starting out in the hole.

My problem with the Drippereth account is that they can post contradictory things like:

Assuming a doctor is in the settup, I will be amaza-suprised if the double-voter isn't protected. So raising up whoever you think is the most pro-town is still the way imo.

and

I can't see why a double vote would be so precious...

and you can't really call them out for a contradiction, because it could just be that the two heads have a different opinion on the issue.

I'm trying to look at Richard. I don't especially care for his style, but I'm not convinced it's scummy yet.

I actually like this comeback here:

I'm going to lol when Drippereth is wrong - AGAIN

Townies don't taunt in this way. Scumz do.

WELL I GUESS THERE'S A FIRST TIME FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE I, A TOWNIE, JUST TAUNTED IN THAT WAY.

Which strikes the right tone of annoyance and indignation for a Town.

Axelrod doesn't vote the whole time the Richard wagon is growing, his "RVS" vote is still in place. When Dr. Modem is replaced, he then immediately votes Cow calling Dr. Modem scummy. But he hadn't actually made any posts about Dr. Modem to that point. In the same post he also defends Richard.

My RVS was about 1/2 a RVS. I had a real issue with MagnaofIllusion's reasons for voting, which I asked him about (and he didn't ever give a great answer). But this wasn't enough to make a big deal out of. Dr. Modem

was

scummy (are you disagreeing?) and as far as I was concerned his asking to replace out was what tipped it for me to be worth a vote. I know it's kind of rude to vote a new player immediately upon replacing and I don't usually do that, but I

thought

I was being somewhat funny. This again was not a "big deal" vote for me.

The defending Richard thing is only relevant to your "linking" argument, I guess.

It was most likely a pressure vote, "Cow".

If not, then what Cow said. Voting for a playerslot just as it changes hands is bad.

Richard now defends Axelrod, although he gives himself an "out" by saying "If not..."

Here your bias is starting to show, as I don't think most people would read that post and come to the conclusion that Richard is seriously "defending" me in it.

boy that makes me feel welcome. I'm going to point out that newbies often replace out when they're under pressure because they don't know what else to do. I mean, he's Townsperson. Plus, he said he was too busy to play, so I'm calling party foul on this vote, because he didn't disappear, he replaced out.

Well, I didn't say he "disappeared" did I? I said he quit. Which is true. Not much of a reason to vote, but I wasn't especially feeling it

more

on anyone else so, there you go.

@Axelrod: I don't see any scumhunting from you. What are your thoughts on scumminess of certain players? For instance, Dr Modem. You say he's scummy, but don't give reasons. You didn't comment on them in any of your previous posts. What are they? Why did it take you so long to change your vote?

Dr. Modem did nothing this game. He "random" voted for me (never a good thing) and made no other votes. He made a few attempts at what appeared to be jokes without commenting about anything or anyone else. He got overly hostile and defensive when critized, and then he quit. So, really, what's not to like there?

In the words of John Paul Jones: I have not yet begun to scum-hunt!

Seriously, it's early.

also @Axelrod: COuld you please explain the contradiction in the two posts of Drippereth that you claimed were contradictory?

Well, in the first quote she says she assumes the Double-Voter will be Doc protected this game. Presumably one would think this because one thinks this is a role worth protecting?

In the second quote she says she doesn't see what's so precious about a Double Vote - like it's no big deal (and, presumably, not worthy of auto-Doc protection). Like, that seems fairly obvious to me. Not you?

Unvote

I do appreciate that you have at least put in some work already, which is more than several people.

Cow and others call foul on this and Axelrod unvotes. This is also the first time he even tries to explain why he finds Dr. Modem scummy. He then makes the mother of all strange comments with his "I have not yet begun to scum-hunt". Ya, we noticed.

Joke? John Paul Jones? Bueller?

If you think I unvoted because people were calling "foul" you are reading impaired. Cow made a decent post which showed that he had at least read the thread and gave the appearance of scum-hunting, which is more than Dr. Modem ever did, and that was sufficient for the Unvote.

Claim: Renly Baratheon

I am Robert's youngest brother. I have decided to be King, but their are currently bigger problems to attend to.

If I die, Ser Loras is able to perform one kill to attemp to avenge me. Therefore, I know Ser Loras is in the game. However, I do not know who (s)he is and what alignment they are. If Ser Loras dies before I do, nothing happens upon my death.
_______________________________________________________________________
Rereading this morning.

Shat,

Unvote

Quickly analyzing bandwagoning reasons

Richard wagon continues to grow, and Richard finally is forced to claim. WITHIN 2 MINUTES OF CLAIMING CMAR UNVOTES. He built this wagon, seemed pretty hot about it at first, vanishes when it picks up steam, and then immediately bails when Richard claims with practically 0 time to actually decided if he buys the claim or not.

I haven't thought about this whole "2 minutes" thing you are harping on. Like, the quick unvote is scummy because...scum are quick to unvote? I'm not sure I get that reasoning, but maybe I haven't thought it all the way through.

Dana sticks out to me as scum, btw.

"Oh look guys Richard's at L-1 so I'll unvote to show everyone how townie I am"

Classic scum tactic.

As soon as people start hesitating on Richard, he seizes an opportunity to paint dana as scum for his unvote, hoping to move people off him, but doesn't do the same thing to CMAR who is MUCH more hypocritical/scummy for his unvote.

[/quote]
At risk of being accused of "defending" Richard, I'll note that these are two very different things. One is an Unvote

before

a claim, which is purportedly to prevent a premature lynch. One is an unvote

after

a claim, presumably because one concludes the claimer is no longer someone you want to lynch.

Whatever you think about the reasoning for finding one of these kind of unvotes scummy, it's not

hypocritical

to find one scummy and the other not, or less so.

Okay, I will get caught up soon, but to those voting to raise axelrod, I would just like to say that whoever gets the double vote will likely die quickly and axelrod already endorsed me getting the double vote. I'm willing to take that sacrifice for town. I'll admit axel seems to be a very good player and I'll likely take his advice into consideration when using a double vote. Just putting it out there.
By the way, glad to see the Richard wagon is taking off. Pillars of the evil king's castle are finally falling 2day.

Uh, yuck?

Unraise: CryMeARiver

Like, I don't usually mind when people suck up to me, but this is kind of over the top. Also, it's

hardly

like I'd firmly decided you were my guy here.

To Richard: do you know if this bonus kill is immediate, or takes place during the subsequent night? For instance, were you lynched, would Loras kill someone before the Night technically started, or would it happen as a regular action during the Night. And I assume he can't hold it for later, but has to use it right then? Could he elect NOT to use it?

Mod

: I'm pretty sure I'm not voting for anyone.

~Thanks - fix'd I hope

CMAR makes an incredibly scummy looking post that he later claims was a bread crumb. Why is he breadcrumbing at this point? Maybe his scum buddy just claimed without breadcrumbs, and he realizes he should set some up? Axelrod UNRAISES CMAR for the scummy "breadcrumb" post, probably realizing the he needs to distance himself from CMAR.

Bias showing again. CMAR makes a bizarre post and I unraise him - which I think most people would say is fine, and even logical, but to you with your "they-re in it together mindset" I'm "distancing."

I'm going to go ahead and /barn Percy at least as far as Hayker goes.

Hayker made This intoductory post in which he purported to do an analysis of Vez (perhaps one of the softest targets in the game). And also says:

Note:I have read the thread and have more thoughts then this. I think keep one post to one topic is simple though...and I'm working on being simple.(walks away with a chain rattling)

These further thoughts remain, as yet, unrevealed. Instead, all Hayker's subsequent posts have been extremely short, two questions to other players and a sarcastic comment. Look, here they are:

One - why was this post needed indeed?

Two - criticizing a bandwaggoner, in the least helpful way.

Three - odd question to 1/2 the Hydra head. Wants DGB's opinion on his play so far. Why? And why specifically DGB?

Vote: Hayker

Mainly I want these other thoughts Hayker supposedly had/has, but has yet to share with us.

Axelrod then seizes on Percy's Hayker case as a way to further derail the Richard wagon, and basically just parrots Percy.

Mina may have mentioned this, but to say that I was trying to "derail" the Richard wagon at this point is simply revisionist history. It has no basis in reality. And while I admit to barning Percy here (look, I even said it in the post!) I did lay it all out. Including the fact that what I was really looking for was the "additional thoughts" that Hayker claimed she had but wasn't posting to keep her posts on 1 topic. Which was suspicious when she said it, and then she didn't do it.

Raivann, you have absolutely no right to call my claim BS with no reasoning. If you're going to attempt to tear my claim to shreds, at least say why. Jesus.

He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

Richard then makes this crazy post calling out Raivann and claims Raivann "knows who Loras is". The only way this would make sense is if Raivann is Loras, and if that is the case why would Richard want to point that out to everyone else? This makes absolutely 0 sense.

Okay? I disagree it makes "0" sense, though I agree that Richard does not appear to have a good basis for thinking that Raivann knows who Loras is.

There's just way too much "certainty" floating around in this thread. I absolutely hate it when people just start calling other people "scum" and act like they have it all figured out and it's case-closed when the truth is they know

nothing

. They have a

hunch

. An

opinion

.

I recognize this is a "style" thing for a lot of people, and they'll flip from calling someone obv.scum to deciding they are clearly town at the drop of a hat, and then immediately press on with their next "obviously scum" target, conveniently ignoring how horribly wrong they were the last time they called someone "obv.scum" and it drives me

nuts

. Please STFU or use some damn qualifiers. When you do this you are either being dishonest or you are just being a moron.

/rant

I don't know why I bothered to type this out. Maybe I'm having a bad day or something.

I know why you bothered. It's called active lurking. You go on to make 0 useful posts from this point on.

Nope. You know, I made exactly

one

post after that one in which I admitted I was slacking on the game, and promised to do better. Then I started a re-read, made what I don't think could be characterized as a "useless" post about Kleedrac and Raivann and got hit by the forum transfer. This is not my definition of "active lurking" but YMMV.

Plus, is a bit more evidence of your general bias, as you know there are multiple people who have way less "useful" posts in this game than I.

[LimMePls]

@Axelrod I think there is almost nothing in your play that looks pro-town to me. You've made three votes all game, 1 RVS, 1 Cow vote that was so bad you even unvoted your very next post, and 1 where you admittedly barn Percy. On top of that you spend most of the rest of your posts on the raising, you do 0 scum hunting, and then you basically start to lurk, until now when I've started poking at you. Your one post since the rant where you mention other players was wishy washy, and you didn't really take a firm stand on them.

People may argue about the links I see, and I think there is some merit to the idea that a links based case is less compelling before we've even had any flips. I'm perfectly willing to admit these were just my observations, and I shared them with the group. I'm by no means "convinced" I'm right. I find it certainly plausible that I'm wrong about the three of you being a scum team. All three of you are scummy though, and I think there is definitely a good possibility you are scum.

I haven't thought about this whole "2 minutes" thing you are harping on. Like, the quick unvote is scummy because...scum are quick to unvote? I'm not sure I get that reasoning, but maybe I haven't thought it all the way through.

Ya, I think you should think it all the way through, cause I've only explained it like three times now. If I can't get my point across by then, either someone else will have to try or you just aren't going to get it. Note that others find it suspicious too, so it's not just me.

The good news is I don't think you are today's lynch. IMO that should be Richard or CMAR, with Richard being by far the scummiest of the three of you. That could change once CMAR explains his unvote. I wouldn't cry if others go with Kleedrac, but I'm not pushing that wagon anymore.

[Axelrod]

Okay, I've looked. This is my initial question for CMAR (who, incidentally, appears to have gone AWOL from even before the forum shift)

When Richard claimed, you said this:

Shat,

Unvote

Quickly analyzing bandwagoning reasons

As has been pointed out, you did this

immediately

.

So, why did you say "Shat?"

Also, what were the results of your quickly analyzed bandwagoning reasons?

[Percy]

Hello replacements, thanks for joining in!

First up, let me reiterate my read on Richard. I think his claim is unlikely to be a fakeclaim, and whilst I don't think it rules him out as scum, it does make it less likely - giving scum a vengeful kill seems less probable than giving town a vengeful kill. Whilst his play has been underwhelming, I think his wagon stinks and I had a gut town read - his present lurking is not doing that any favours, though. Right now I'm still not willing to lynch Richard, but I haven't ruled him out completely as scum.

This brings me to LynchMePls' case for a CMAR/Richard/Axelrod scumteam. I find the analysis of CMAR and Axelrod being scummy to be largely independent of the scumminess of Richard, and having read both this post and Axelrod's response, I sympathise with Axelrod's charge of confirmation bias. Still, I don't like the degree to which Axelrod's read on Kleedrac matches up with my own, and his support of MacavityLock's vote on MagnaofIllusion without comment or expansion makes for a third example (my Hayker case being the first).
I still think CMAR is far more scummy than Axelrod, but there has been a lot more defence and reiterating/referencing points others have made than original scumhunting from Axelrod.

So, on to MacavityLock and MagnaofIllusion, where ML has both raised a good point and kept at it. I think the tell is nitpicky, but I still like it enough to be interested to see where this case goes - scum can be nitpicked to death, after all.

@MagnaofIllusion

: Your vote is still on SSBF. Do you think parrotgate is further evidence of SSBF scum? Why are you still voting SSBF?

I disagree with dana that Raivann's posting makes him a less desirable lynch than Kleedrac. The fact that dana has done little more than complain about the Raivann wagon ever since it began for ultimately pedantic reasons is rather suspicious - in particular, I don't know what dana thinks of Raivann at all, only that Raivann may be in some people's eyes as scummy as Kleedrac. This is scummy hedging.

I can split the reads of Raivann into two groups - those that think he's scum, and those that relegate the scumtells to replacement jitters and playstyle. I'm in the former camp; Raivann's content is filled with contradictions, wagon jumping and posts like this one - a lacklustre attempt bordering on OMGUS. Mikujin's recent set of questions for Raivann produced the extremely underwhelming response, so it's clear to me that Raivann is going to play the "too stupidly scummy to be scum" card for all it's worth - probably because it's working. Overall, I'm still very happy with my vote.

As for Benmage/I doubt it, my summary goes like this:
It all began in this post where I doubt it put Benmage on vis scumlist. Benmage reacts strongly, I doubt it votes Benmage in response to the strong reaction, SSBF defends Benmage, Benmage explodes, I doubt it concedes and backs off.
I have a neutral read of I doubt it. The reaction provoked by his points was very over-the-top, and I don't think the case was without merit (though it was overstated). I also am undecided about his backing off. I have no good read right now.
Benmage's reaction makes for a weak scumtell for me, as does SSBF's defense.
Also, I asked SSBF about it and didn't get a response.

In conclusion:
-Still liking a Raivann lynch
-CMAR is my #2
-Other leads I'm looking into from today are Axelrod, dana/Raivann interaction, MoI/SSBF interaction, Benmage/SSBF interaction

I'm going to work on a much larger post over the weekend with analysis of every player's D1 play, and questions for all.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@Percy: What about the interaction between me and MagnaOfIllusion that's giving you some form of leads between us? I haven't really interacted with him as much as other players, despite having a pro-town read on him. Also, MagnaofIllusion does not have a vote on me, just to correct you.

You're simultaneously defending him and distancing yourself from him.

I honestly do not see how I was distancing from Benmage, let alone both defending him and distancing from him. I have a town read on the person.

Why are you being so defensive SSBF?

This relates to a past Mafia game on Smash World Forums that just recently finished called Dragonball Z Mafia. I took a TON of heat during the game. Major points against me included parroting. Combined with other things and that nearly got me killed Day 2. Had it not been for my claim (I was Town Jailer), I would have completely and utterly given up on the game and I would have permanently left the section of Smash World Forums where they played Mafia.

It basically relates back to meta.

[Benmage]

Need to catch up on the last page in half...no post count and a tough way to iso blows.

[Kinetic]

Alright, trying to re-read threads in this new system is just.... annoying. I'm not sure why, but I can't get the hang of it. For now I'm going to UNVOTE: and

Unraise

to remove whatever my predecessor did.

Anyway, I'm just going to start keeping up with the game from this point forward and hope to get some sort of reading done later maybe.

[RichardGHP]

Well, at least we have a comparable ISO feature now.

Post coming tomorrow.

[danakillsu]

- in particular, I don't know what dana thinks of Raivann at all, only that Raivann may be in some people's eyes as scummy as Kleedrac. This is scummy hedging.

Well I think you could have seen this in my earlier posts, but just to make it clear for you, I think he's as scummy as Kleedrac. I think the reasoning for lynching either would be the same. Therefore, I would lynch either one if Kleedrac was posting as much content as Raivann, but he's not. So I would rather lynch Kleedrac. If Kleedrac is replaced with someone that posts content and some others would be willing to do the same (so that we don't waste a day) I would be willing to lynch Raivann.

[LimMePls]

First up, let me reiterate my read on Richard. I think his claim is unlikely to be a fakeclaim, and whilst I don't think it rules him out as scum, it does make it less likely - giving scum a vengeful kill seems less probable than giving town a vengeful kill. Whilst his play has been underwhelming, I think his wagon stinks and I had a gut town read - his present lurking is not doing that any favours, though.

Why couldn't it be a fake claim and the power be completely bogus? If he is the leader of a scum team, and his fake claim is Renly, couldn't his partner's fake claim be Loras? And couldn't he have just made up the power? It would explain him having to PM the mod multiple times to "clarify" how it worked. And "his play has been underwhelming"? That's an underwhelming statement from you. Here is the entireity of his participation SINCE his claim:

Dana sticks out to me as scum, btw.

"Oh look guys Richard's at L-1 so I'll unvote to show everyone how townie I am"

Classic scum tactic.

My PM didn't specify, but I would assume so, yes.

PM'd mod for clarification, awaiting reply.

This just in, any form of death counts, so yes, lynching is a viable option.

No, I don't know anything about that Axel. PMing the mod again. >_>

K, mod PM'd me saying that all I know is that I trigger the ability to kill; I don't know who does it, or when.

Raivann, you have absolutely no right to call my claim BS with no reasoning. If you're going to attempt to tear my claim to shreds, at least say why. Jesus.

He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

Vote: Kleedrac

If anyone really really really really REALLY wants an explanation I'll post it either tomorrow or on Friday, when I do my catching up post.

Raise Percy

Will post on Friday.

Well, at least we have a comparable ISO feature now.

Post coming tomorrow.

Show me one scum hunting post from that. Hell show me one post, other than the ones about PMing the mod that isn't scummy looking. So, he makes a claim, he gets a reprieve, and what does he do with it? Help us at all? No, he continues to play scummy and be absolutely 0 help to the town. The only post in that list that could even be charitably called a contribution is the one attacking dana, and that seemed more opportunistic mud slinging when he was still under pressure than an actual attempt at scum hunting.

Right now I'm still not willing to lynch Richard, but I haven't ruled him out completely as scum.

@Percy: If Richard's play from the beginning of D1 to now isn't lynch worthy, then what the hell is? I seriously don't know how a player could be scummier other than to carry around a sign saying "I'm scum".

This brings me to LynchMePls' case for a CMAR/Richard/Axelrod scumteam. I find the analysis of CMAR and Axelrod being scummy to be largely independent of the scumminess of Richard, and having read both this post and Axelrod's response, I sympathise with Axelrod's charge of confirmation bias. Still, I don't like the degree to which Axelrod's read on Kleedrac matches up with my own, and his support of MacavityLock's vote on MagnaofIllusion without comment or expansion makes for a third example (my Hayker case being the first).
I still think CMAR is far more scummy than Axelrod, but there has been a lot more defence and reiterating/referencing points others have made than original scumhunting from Axelrod

I'm willing to conceede that there may be some confirmation bias. I formed an opinion based on my reread and I posted the evidence I saw to support my case. I also think MacCavity made a good point about cases using links on D1 are underwhleming. If I could do it over again, I probably wouldn't call them a scum team, and just point to the individual pieces of their scumminess. That said, I don't think anyone can argue that Axelrod and CMAR are scummy. I agree that CMAR is the scummier by far, but Axelrod is really creeping me out. I don't think he has taken a firm stand on anything the whole game that someone else didn't suggest first. Even his vote on Cow came after others had said Dr. Modem was scummy looking. He didn't say anything about it while Dr. Modem was in the game, and then when Cow shows up he immediately votes him, only to look so foolish that he unvotes him the very next post. Axelrod's play this game stinks.

[Eddard Stark]

Paranoia has been prodded to see if he's still willing to play the game.

Vezokpiraka replaced Vezopiraka (they're the same person, his other account didn't work).

Julienvonwolfe is the only one who has announced V/la to my knowledge.

Still searching for Hayker and Kleedrac replacements.

[CryMeARiver]

Whoa, I lost this game and just saw it on the "View Posts", I must have missed it on my subscriptions, so sorry guys

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay, I am caught up to page 10. I'll take a break now and do more tomorrow. Here are my thoughts:

First, in a skim-read through I caught that Richard claimed Renly. I believe this claim, due to the reasons already stated by others at the time: it relies on another and can therefore be tested. Also, Richard's play strikes me as frustrated and emotional newbie town rather than scum, but that's gut, admittedly. This rather colours my view of the developing Richard wagon that we see in pages 1 - 10, and makes me view those critics of him with some disfavour as it's very likely that a fair number of scum were on the wagon. I'll post better thoughts of that wagon when I get to it.

Secondly, a little setup speculation: I think it highly likely that there are multiple scum teams given both the size of this game and the flavor, in which there are many competing factions.

Finally, please note that in the following I have used page numbers rather than post numbers for obvious reasons. I will not vote until I finish my read, since to do otherwise would be foolish:


My town reads up to pg 10 are Percy, Cow, Mina and Axel. I'd be content to raise one of them to Hand.

My scum reads so far are Vezo and SSBF, with sitting on the fence about Benmage. My notes:

Benmage's play has been reactionary and contains no scumhunting. However, I don't get that 'gut' scum feel from him. Notes: seems scatterbrained, but that's meta. Pg 4, quote wall war with CMAR... reactionary play. Pg 4, still not much in the way of scumhunting. Pg 5, concerned with raising a hand still. Finally a smattering of scumhunting when asks Drippereth to restate case on 'two scum', though it should have been obvious from reading the thread and so looks more like laziness. Pg. 6, tenacious followup, better and shows more engagement. But Pg 8, entirely reactionary and not scumhunting.


SSBF I think is scum. I get the feeling of 'textbook' play from him - too textbook. He engages in a way that approaches active lurking, and I get the feeling that he is trying to use accepted forms in order to avoid making a 'scummy' mistake. Detail notes - pg 4. reactionary, not analytical post that doesn't seem to serve much purpose. Same on pg. 5 when you could really have more analysis, more than just a 'slightly scummy read on DrModem'. Pg 6, the obvious riposte to Migwelloni; not good, not bad. Pg 7, good post towards Vezo, but looks like omgus against CMAR. Pg 8, stock-standard asking lurkers to contribute reads. Pg 9, reacts to Drippereth's prodding with a 'this post is very scummy, if you play badly you get lynched', but DESPITE READ also says 'will need to re-read your [Richard's] posts.' Scummy. Then a short case.... followed by an FOS? What? Then lurker hunting Kleedrac - good, but 'by the book' feeling. Same with his FOmS of ani on pg 10.


Vezopiraka I also think to be scum. I think the notes speak for my thought process: pg 5. no scumhunting, barely engaging. Wish to be raised not good; 'next in line for the throne', given flavour, hardly towntell. TPg 7, he "Will post a case sometime soon" is a personal tell for me. Scummy, given later exact same thing about Richard. Then votes Richard without case, as a reaction to a 'scummy' post. Hmmm.

[hasdgfas]

Why are you being so defensive SSBF?

This relates to a past Mafia game on Smash World Forums that just recently finished called Dragonball Z Mafia. I took a TON of heat during the game. Major points against me included parroting. Combined with other things and that nearly got me killed Day 2. Had it not been for my claim (I was Town Jailer), I would have completely and utterly given up on the game and I would have permanently left the section of Smash World Forums where they played Mafia.

It basically relates back to meta.

erme this sounds exactly like AtE. "I run away when I'm under pressure." I'm sorry, but I really hate that.

@I doubt it: Why shouldn't he defend himself? Do you believe there is such a thing as overdefensiveness? If so, how is it defined?

Whoa, I lost this game and just saw it on the "View Posts", I must have missed it on my subscriptions, so sorry guys

What do you think of Kleedrac? What do you think of Richard now? What do you think of Axelrod? Please play this game.

[Unsight]

WHAAAAAA I'M STILL CAUGHT BY MARATHON CAP LOCKS FEVER.
ALL I WANT TO SAY RIGHT NOW IS THAT RAI IS MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE TOWN THAN KLEEDRAC!

Please elaborate.

[Mina]

This post isn't full of brilliant content

because I might be just slightly, mildly, almost minutely on the tipsy side right now

, but just a quick response to a few people:

Actually, your response is coming off as pretty townish. And...that's kind of a good point about how you didn't need to unvote Kleedrac. (Mind you, now I'm concocting an elaborate Kleedrac-LynchMePls scumteam theory. At first, you didn't get the case on Kleedrac, right? But then you saw which way the winds were blowing, so you did a sudden turnaround and voted him, until you saw reluctance to lynch him and decided to make a last-ditch effort to save him with a huge case....someone please stop my overactive imagination.)

I asked what the case was, because he was just a lurker. He then made a scummy post in response to the pressure he was getting. I made a very good response to his scummy post, asked him questions, and voted him. If you think that makes me look scummy, then I don't even know what to say.

Um...

Actually, your response is coming off as

pretty townish

.

(Emphasis mine.) I thought your original case struck me as off because I've had experience with several players who stretch the facts and fabricate cases based on circumstantial evidence when they're scum. But now I'm thinking that your overall play is townish, even though I disagree with you on the Richard-Axelrod-CMAR triumvirate. (The whole part in parentheses was just me indulging in crazy conspiracy theories for the hell of it. I though it was obvious that I didn't fully believe it.) You sound passionate about what you're saying. I just think you're suffering from a teensy bit of confirmation bias. I don't hold it against you, because I'm totally guilty of indulging in confirmation bias all the time. I agree that your case is stronger when you focus on individual behaviour rather than on links.

Actually, I'm calling it now. LynchMePls vs. Axelrod is town vs. town. I will totally use this statement in endgame to brag about my brilliant scumhunting skills, even though odds are I haven't voted for a single scum all game. (I'm almost always humiliatingly wrong about who the scum are during the first couple of days. But my gut town reads tend to be right. Mind you, simple probability says that any person chosen at random is more likely to be town than scum...where was I going with this, again?)

Oh, really? Please explain to me how the instantaneous change between this and this is any different. Clearly, Dripp changed their mind in the

one minute

between demanding a claim and saying "I believe the claim." And you yourself said Dripp was attacking Richard harder than CMAR was.

I'll let Dripp answer for themselves on this one, but to me that looked like the two heads of the hydra simul posting. Hence the "ninja'd" comment. I think one of them was dubious and the other bought the claim. Also to note that while their two posts were a minute apart, they weren't TWO MINUTES after the claim like CMARs was.

I interpreted it as the same hydra head being ninja'd by Richard's claim. In that case, what's the difference? It took them 60 seconds to decide that the claim was worth unvoting for. Meanwhile, it took CMAR 120 seconds to make the same decision.

Just a question. Do you think CMAR is scummy because he was conveniently around to react to Richard's claim, or because his "unvote" reaction happened so quickly?

If it's the latter, then I think it's irrelevant that Drippereth's two posts in succession came afterward. Clearly, whichever head of the hydra was active at the time didn't notice Richard's claim at first, but made a snap decision within a minute that Richard's claim was believable. It's just a coincidence that CMAR unvoted first. And for the record, although I think Drippereth's reaction is a

little

dodgy, I don't think it's damning evidence of their scumminess. Likewise with CMAR.

By the way, glad to see the Richard wagon is taking off. Pillars of the evil king's castle are finally falling 2day.

Thanks for dredging this gem of a post up, it only illustrates my point. He posts that he is glad the wagon is taking off and "Pillars of the evil king's castle are finaly falling". So, he is glad the wagon is building steam, he is convinced he is scum, but he unvotes instantly after the claim. And what was the claim? ONE OF THE FIVE KINGS!!!! Isn't one of the five kings (particularly one that might be viewed as "good" by some readers) certainly a possible fake claim for a scum leader? Wouldn't that in and of itself make you pause? I know it did for me when I read the claim.

You know what? I'd advocate a CMAR nameclaim (not a roleclaim) now. I'm saying this because names were only tangentially related to roles in the mini (important characters didn't have important roles). This quote along with the horrible cop breadcrumb make no sense.

Oh, and if there is a Day vig out there, hitting Richard would be uber. Just saying.

Leaving aside the replacement fodder, I personally think vezopiraka (although his play makes him pretty much unreadable), Raivann, and the Migwelloni/Kinetic slot is scummier. And I have issues with Rivka, Benmage, I doubt it (his recent post was really wishy-washy), Kleedrac to a certain extent, Cow, and danakillsu. Agreed that Richard's current inactivity after he wriggled out of the lynch is annoying, though.

[Mina]

Ugh, too tired to reply to Cow, but just responding to Rifka:

Mina, read my posts. I dont have a case on benmage because i dont really find him big scummy read, plus he isnt posting enough to have some kind of solid case. The worst that could be said is active lurking and\or mysterious vote on drippy.

Here is my post answering you

A:If i thought a player is scum, then another player that i think is scumy attacking him isnt in any way a redeeming factor for that player in a game of this size. Right now im thinking benmage is town though. Not sure where you came up with the rest of the stuff in your post

I saw your post answering me. But you didn't answer a single question I asked you:

If Benmage was one of your top suspects earlier on (and I don't think you ever gave a reason for dropping your pursuit of him), then why are you making fun of someone for doing a case on him? If you wanted to single out the player in this game who's made the dumbest arguments and been the most anti-town, I certainly wouldn't choose I doubt it. So it seems to be his Benmage case that bothers you.

So answer this. Do you disagree with I doubt it's case on Benmage, but dislike it for other reasons? Is there something I doubt it has done that makes him look scummy/inexperienced to you? Is it because you heard SSBF, Drippereth, and Benmage say his case was bad, so you're just sheeping along? Are you just trying to be "one of the cool kids, LOL!" and join in with making fun of another player without getting your own hands dirty? Or is there a reason you dropped your suspicion of Benmage? I want you to explain, in detail, just why you think your case on Benmage is better than I doubt it's.

Questions unanswered (leaving out the rhetorical/snarky ones):

1) Do you disagree with I doubt it's case on Benmage, but dislike Benmage for other reasons?
2) Is there something I doubt is has done that makes him look scummy/inexperienced to you?
3) Is there a reason you dropped your suspicion of Benmage?
4) I want you to explain, in detail, just why you think your case on Benmage is better than I doubt it's.

Imaginary questions your post

might

have answered, but which is not at all what I actually asked you:

1) Is it theoretically possible for someone to find a player scummy who attacks a player you think is scum? (Even though you never even said you thought that I doubt it was scum.)
2) Do you suspect Benmage right this second?

Maybe you misunderstood where I was going with this. Benmage made a nasty post in which he told I doubt it to replace out of the game because he was so bad at Mafia. When the mod stepped in to warn against personal attacks, you felt the need to chime in with, "Gee, I dunno, is that really an unacceptable level of personal attack or just the truth?"

Except, you know, Benmage pretty much said I doubt it sucked solely and completely because I doubt it made a case on Benmage that Benmage thought was poor. So clearly, you think I doubt it's case on Benmage was poor. But early in the game, you attacked Benmage (for rather nitpicky reasons). Normally, townies react positively to cases on their pet suspects. They also say something when their pet suspects become town reads. And you keep on refusing to clarify just why you think I doubt it's case on your former suspect is so bad that I doubt it should replace out of the game.

(That said, I'm not that impressed with I doubt it's most recent post. His opinions seem very safe and middle-of-the-road.)

Either:
1) You're looking for an excuse to be an asshole. You don't really care

why

Benmage telling I doubt it to replace out of the game is not an unacceptable level of personal attack but the truth. You aren't paying attention. You just saw someone being made fun of, and wanted to get your own passive-aggressive dig in.
2) There's something I doubt it did that made you think he's a worse player than, say, vezopiraka. But you can't be bothered to explain what that something is.
3) You clearly aren't interested in following leads or connections, and aren't consistent in your suspicions, because you're scum and just tossing out random accusations to look active...
4) ...or because Benmage is your scumbuddy and all that talk about him being an "obstructionist" was just a waffling attempt at distancing.

You're kind of all over the place when it comes to Benmage. First you suspected him for weak reasons, then you stopped attacking him (but attacked SSBF for defending him), then you said you think he's town, now you're saying there isn't enough information to read him.

Now, I'd like answers to the questions I

really

asked you. Don't be evasive. I want specifics. Actual SPECIFICS, with quotes.

Mina, read my posts. I dont have a case on benmage because i dont really find him big scummy read, plus

he isnt posting enough to have some kind of solid case

. The worst that could be said is

active lurking

and\or mysterious vote on drippy.

(emphasis mine)
That's really funny. According to your own New York Lurker Report, Benmage was the second highest poster. (

Maybe

that could fit with "active lurking," but certainly not with "isn't posting enough to have some kind of solid case.")

Has he stopped being an "obstructionist" since his activity has dropped?

[Percy]

@SSBF

: Firstly, as far as I can see in MoI's ISO, his vote is still on you. If someone could find where MoI unvotes SSBF and votes Mikujin, that would be great.
Also, you're saying that the parroting comment comes down to meta - being something you've been called out on before - but that doesn't make pre-emptive defence of such a charge any less of a scumtell in my mind.
Also also, note that again you don't comment on Benmage etc., even though I've prodded you many times to do so. You object to my calling out SSBF/MoI, but not to SSBF/Benmage. Why is that, exactly?

@danakillsu

: Something isn't adding up.

I'm not saying he will hurt us more as scum, just that he WON'T hurt us LESS. However, if he is TOWN, Kleedrac will do much less for us than Raivann will if Raivan is TOWN. In other words, Kleedrac-scum is approximately equal to Raivann-scum. Kleedrac-town << Raivann-town. Therefore, if Kleedrac is equally scummy to Raivann, we should lynch Kleedrac. Do I make myself clear? Also, I would like to hear others' thoughts on my post that Raivann messed up on rather than their bashing of Raivann for messing up. I think the messing up part is a null tell, personally.

You make a point that you are engaging in hypotheticals, and that you dismiss the point on Raivann as null. Then:

If Kleedrac is replaced with someone decent, I'd be just as down for a Raivann lynch I guess.

Now, this is where things get weird:

Sigh. Why doesn't anyone get

what I've said from the beginning

? MY POINT IS THAT KLEEDRAC-SCUM is roughly equal to Raivann-scum, and

both have good reasoning for their wagons

. Therefore if Kleedrac is replaced, making "Kleedrac"-town at least as good as Raivann-town, then I'd be fine with lynching either.

This is not what you've been saying from the beginning, especially the bolded.
So, why the turnaround?
Also,

why

is Raivann as scummy as Kleedrac?

@LynchMePls

: I'm not that interested in Richard right now for a few reasons.
1. His fakeclaim is a very excellent one if it's a scumclaim. If Renly is his fakeclaim and his scumbuddy's fakeclaim is Loras, then Richard's death will deprive his buddy of his fakeclaim. If Loras is not in the game, then he'll be caught in endgame. I can't see a situation where Richard's fakeclaim won't catch up with him, if it is indeed fake.
2. The speed of the wagon, and the reasons some players used to contribute to it, stink of scum.
I agree with you that Richard's play has done absolutely nothing to help the town, and I further agree that the quick reversal of his wagon has produced zero pressure on Richard to contribute. If I'm wrong about the claim, then that would really suck, and I'm not interested in giving Richard a free pass through the rest of the game based solely on this claim. I stand by my gut read for the moment, and the wagon+claim shenanigans make him less of a person of interest for me

today

.
I agree with you about both CMAR and Axelrod, though.

CMAR's "oops I lost this game" is a very, very weak excuse. Ever since the Richard wagon CMAR has been gone, so blaming the lack of activity on the server change is

extremely

disingenuous.

@Mina

: I agree with you about CMAR nameclaiming. Locking him into a claim now, given his behaviour and his breadcrumb, is the best play.

I think CMAR and Raivann are excellent lynch choices for today.

Still working on that every-player ISO (coming tomorrow). May or may not change my vote to CMAR then.

[Rifka Viveka]

@Mina:Thats a textbook case of active lurking IMO. Plenty of posting, but he hasnt really said anything.

I never called benmage scum, i simply felt at such an early time it wasnt helpfull to do what he was doing. Its not a particular scumtell of mine, obstructionism. I really think you are reaching here, and reading\imagining things that dont exist. Because i talked to him 1v1 for a bit, i feel like i have a better read on him than before, i dont get the gut scum read.

[danakillsu]

@danakillsu: Something isn't adding up.
danakillsu wrote:
I'm not saying he will hurt us more as scum, just that he WON'T hurt us LESS. However, if he is TOWN, Kleedrac will do much less for us than Raivann will if Raivan is TOWN. In other words, Kleedrac-scum is approximately equal to Raivann-scum. Kleedrac-town << Raivann-town. Therefore, if Kleedrac is equally scummy to Raivann, we should lynch Kleedrac. Do I make myself clear? Also, I would like to hear others' thoughts on my post that Raivann messed up on rather than their bashing of Raivann for messing up. I think the messing up part is a null tell, personally.
You make a point that you are engaging in hypotheticals, and that you dismiss the point on Raivann as null. Then:
danakillsu wrote:
If Kleedrac is replaced with someone decent, I'd be just as down for a Raivann lynch I guess.
Now, this is where things get weird:
danakillsu wrote:
Sigh. Why doesn't anyone get what I've said from the beginning? MY POINT IS THAT KLEEDRAC-SCUM is roughly equal to Raivann-scum, and both have good reasoning for their wagons. Therefore if Kleedrac is replaced, making "Kleedrac"-town at least as good as Raivann-town, then I'd be fine with lynching either.
This is not what you've been saying from the beginning, especially the bolded.
So, why the turnaround?
Also, why is Raivann as scummy as Kleedrac?

How is it not what I've been saying? The quotes you have seem to be saying the same thing to me. Raivann is at least almost as scummy as Kleedrac for the same reasons. Raivann hasn't made a decent post that helps town, has accused others with little-to-no reasoning, and spent most of his time apologizing and sarcastically describing others' posts.

[Mina]

Rifka, I'll admit that when I attack someone, I sometimes up the rhetoric for the sake of

being a drama queen

generating pressure and reactions. But you still haven't answered Questions 1, 2 and 4. I suppose that counts as a decent answer for 3. Just answer my questions. Exactly what I asked.

The early fight about "obstructionism" is the kind of argument I associate with scumbuddies under no suspicion trying to create distance without putting each other in danger of a lynch. Obviously, not sufficient evidence on its own, because you know, cases based on links on D1 before a flip and all that. But combined with your reluctance to explain your little dig at I doubt it and the lack of explanation for your thought process, I definitely thought the connection was worth poking at.

2. The speed of the wagon, and the reasons some players used to contribute to it, stink of scum.

Percy, what do you think of the Kleedrac and Raivann wagons? Do you think they're more town-driven than that on Richard?

Also, question to Locke. Do you still suspect Unsight?

[Mina]

By the way, just catching up on something from ages ago...

Also, I would like to hear others' thoughts on my post that Raivann messed up on rather than their bashing of Raivann for messing up. I think the messing up part is a null tell, personally.

Sorry, which post are you talking about? Who's suspecting Raivann for "messing up"?

Um....
How about...
Raivann is actually posting? And Kleedrac has simply given up?

Kleedrac is getting replaced, anyway, so this argument doesn't work.

Are you sure? Eddard Stark doesn't seem to be saying this. If Kleedrac is replaced with someone decent, I'd be just as down for a Raivann lynch I guess. But my point about the timing is still valid.
And I'm talking about my June 13, 8:31 PM post. And Mikujin was bashing Raivann.

I finally got around to checking your post, and this is what it said:

Yes, I simply meant the surge of votes toward Raivann instead of Kleedrac, who is only L-6. Here's what I see as our options today:
1) Lynch Richard. IMHO, not a good idea.
2) Lynch Kleedrac. If you believe he's scummy, why not? He's not going to help town even if we keep him alive, since he's given up on posting. And if he's scum, he'll probably do just as much harm as Raivann-scum would.
3) Lynch Raivann. But if we don't do this today, even if he's scum, it probably won't hurt us.
End result: IF you don't want to lynch Richard after his claim, and IF you find Kleedrac nearly as scummy as Raivann, you should be voting for Kleedrac.

Where do you mention anything about "messing up" or "nulltells"? You just give strategic reasons to vote Kleedrac or Raivann. I feel as though I'm missing a step in your logic.

[LimMePls]

@LynchMePls

: I'm not that interested in Richard right now for a few reasons.
1. His fakeclaim is a very excellent one if it's a scumclaim. If Renly is his fakeclaim and his scumbuddy's fakeclaim is Loras, then Richard's death will deprive his buddy of his fakeclaim. If Loras is not in the game, then he'll be caught in endgame. I can't see a situation where Richard's fakeclaim won't catch up with him, if it is indeed fake.

This is an excellent point.

Unvote

I guess we can let this play out.

2. The speed of the wagon, and the reasons some players used to contribute to it, stink of scum.
I agree with you that Richard's play has done absolutely nothing to help the town, and I further agree that the quick reversal of his wagon has produced zero pressure on Richard to contribute. If I'm wrong about the claim, then that would really suck, and I'm not interested in giving Richard a free pass through the rest of the game based solely on this claim. I stand by my gut read for the moment, and the wagon+claim shenanigans make him less of a person of interest for me

today

.
I agree with you about both CMAR and Axelrod, though.

CMAR's "oops I lost this game" is a very, very weak excuse. Ever since the Richard wagon CMAR has been gone, so blaming the lack of activity on the server change is

extremely

disingenuous.

@Mina

: I agree with you about CMAR nameclaiming. Locking him into a claim now, given his behaviour and his breadcrumb, is the best play.

I think CMAR and Raivann are excellent lynch choices for today.

Still working on that every-player ISO (coming tomorrow). May or may not change my vote to CMAR then.

And I agree with all the rest of this. CMAR name claim seems appropriate given his play. To help put pressure on him toward that goal, as well as for his scummy behavior:

Vote: CryMeARiver

Oh, and

Raise: Percy

For this most recent post.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 1.18: The

"Unbowed. Unbent. Unbroken"

votecount

.

Lynch Count

Super Smash Bros. Fan (1) -

Unsight

RichardGHP (1) -

Raivann

CryMeARiver (2) -

Hasdgfas, LynchmePls

Drippereth (2) -

Benmage, Kleedrac

Vezopiraka (1) -

Hayker

Hayker (1) -

Axelrod

danakillsu (2) -

xvart, Paranoia

Kleedrac (6) -

Drippereth, Super Smash Bros. Fan, danakillsu, RichardGHP, vezopiraka, I doubt it

Mikujin (1) -

MagnaofIllusion

Unsight (1)

Locke Lamora

Raivann (4)

Mina, Mikujin, Percy, Locke Lamora

MagnaofIllusion (1)

MacavityLock

Not voting to Lynch (4) - CryMeARiver, Rifka Vivieka, Julienvonwolfe, Kinetic

Hand of the King Count

xvart (2) -

xvart, Kleedrac

CryMeARiver (2) -

CryMeARiver, Raivann

Benmage (1) -

Benmage

Drippereth (2) -

Danakillsu, Drippereth

Percy (11) -

hasdgfas, Mikujin, MagnaofIllusion, MacavityLock, Percy, vezopiraka, I doubt it, Super Smash Bros. Fan,Rifka Viveka, RichardGHP, Lynchmepls

Mina (2) -

Paranoia, Locke Lamora

MacavityLock (1)

Axelrod

Not voting to Raise (5) - Unsight, Hayker, Mina, julienvonwolfe , Kinetic

With 26 alive, it takes 14 to lynch and raise.

The deadline for today's lynch is

10:00pm EST on Tuesday the 22nd of June

. You can view a countdown to the deadline

here

.

MOI, JVW and vezopiraka's V/La are noted.

Replacing Kleedrac and Hayker. If you know anyone who's willing to replace get them to PM me. Still searching myself too!

Gonna replace Paranoia too if he doesn't show up before I find a replacement. He's not responded to my PM so yeah. Lovely

We'll consider a deadline extension since there's a need for so many replacements :/ Also gonna send out prods to anyone coming close to the range of it being needed as I won't be on to prod them later.

[Kinetic]

I'm starting to wonder something about Loras. PLEASE READ THIS: DO NOT CLAIM The question I'm wondering is if Loras knew before Richard's claim that he would get a Venge kill if Renly died, or if Loras either A) Is vanilla, or B) Had other abilities besides this.

Mina/Percy look townish, but I'm extremely dubious of Percy because I know he can look very town while playing scum. I'm going to keep him under very strict watch.

Raise Mina

It would be very funny, though, if this game was similar to the last where one of the scum fake-claimed the OTHER scum's real role, lol.