A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[vezokpiraka]

Obv fakeclaim.
You were voting to raise CMAR.
I don't want to lynch a vig now.
If CMAR flips scum raviann should be obv scum.

Someone asked who I believe scum.
I believe both of them are scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CMAR

[Budja]

Back, sorry. Exams hit harder that I thought they would.
Pretty tired now, but I get something proper posted soon.

[Budja]

Soon might equal tomorrow actually. This looks content-heavy and I'm nowhere near the correct mood to begin sorting through that.

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm not sure Lord Beric does make perfect sense as a vig, but it doesn't matter, because I'm inclined to believe that in this game scum have been provided with fakeclaims.

[Mina]

No, you shouldn't be off the hook. Claiming a PR is NOT a free pass out of a lynch.

Needless to say - you are not the lynch for today, but you definitely are not clear.

Well, aren't you a hypocrite?

You know, I'm going to break my streak of trying to lynch claimed vigs and say I'm leaning toward believing the claim. Vig is a provable role, and Beric uses vigilante justice in the book. Even if Raivann tries to pull the "I was roleblocked" card for the rest of the game, he guarantees that the

real

vig targets him. Only doubt in my mind is that he could be a serial killer.

Unvote

Um...sorry, Raivann.

Note: if you are a vig, DO NOT counterclaim Raivann, cast doubt on his claim, or say anything that might give yourself away today. Just vig him tonight! If it doesn't work, wait until tomorrow to counterclaim.

It also explains why Raivann thought Richard's claim was a lie. I'm not sure how likely it is for there to be a full vig AND a one-shot vig.

Should we direct his kill? If this game is anything like last, there's a scum roleblocker or doctor out there to neutralize the vig. It's just that he might still be a SK.

Willing to move to CMAR if necessary, but not before a claim.

You know what? I have an idea. Just for fun, I'm going to try something.

Vote: RichardGHP

[Mina]

I changed my mind in the shower.

I'll be out all day, and there isn't enough time before the deadline to make

two

moves like this.

The Richard vote was a trap for only one person. I think this vote will be much more informative.

Unvote

Vote: Budja

Hey, guys! We have about thirty-six hours before the deadline, and Budja is now a lynch option again. Who's willing to change back to the player they actually suspected?

[LimMePls]

Unvote
Vote: RichardGHP

If we have an every night Vig, we don't need a one-shot vig enabler. Who do I believe more... well given my wall-o-case earlier...

[LimMePls]

I'm not sure Lord Beric does make perfect sense as a vig, but it doesn't matter, because I'm inclined to believe that in this game scum have been provided with fakeclaims.

Lord Beric makes perfect sense as a vig.

**SPOILER ALERT**
At this point in time (ACOK) Beric had already been ambushed by Ser Gregor, died and made undead, and was now conducting raids as the leader of the "Brotherhood Without Banners". He and his followers were killing those they saw as evil doers in the name of the dead King Robert, but without the King's direct permission (you know, cause he's dead). They were by definition vigilantes, and Beric was their leader. If Beric doesn't fit the definition of a vigilante in Westeros, I dunno who does.
**END SPOILER**

You strke me as someone who was familiar with the source material, so I find it odd that you doubt this.

That being said, yes we must assume the scum have fake claims, and yes Raivann could have concocted this story because he seems to be familiar with the source material (note his fake day kill claim in the mini). However, given his play contrasted to Richards, plus the fact that Richard is claiming to enable a 1-shot vig while Raivann is claiming to be a full time vig, and it seems really clear to me that Richard's claim is bogus.

[Eddard Stark]

Vote count 1.24: The

"Why should a man humble himself when the world is so full of men eager to do that job for him?"

votecount

.

Lynch Count

Super Smash Bros. Fan (1) -

Unsight

CryMeARiver (10) -

Hasdgfas, MacavityLock, RichardGHP, xvart, Axelrod, MagnaofIllusion, CSL , Raivann, I Doubt It, Vezokpiraka

Drippereth (1) -

Budja

Budja (2) -

Drippereth, Mina

Raivann (9)

Mikujin, Locke Lamora, julienvonwolfe, Rifka Vivieka, Percy,Thor665, Danakillsu, Super Smash Bros. Fan, Benmage

RichardGHP (1)

LynchmePls

Not voting to Lynch (2) - CryMeARiver, Kinetic

With 26 alive it takes 14 to lynch.
Checking who needs prodding.

The deadline for today's lynch is

10:00pm EST on Thursday the 24th of June

. You can view a countdown to the deadline

here

.

[LimMePls]

Beric Dondarrion,

Innocent Aligned

My bolding. Something that was missing from Richard's claim, I'd like to point out.

[Rifka Viveka]

Unvote

Even so, im a little nervous letting a player of raivanns caliber select his own targets. I suggest we give him a list of 5 scummy scums that need killing and let him choose off that list. vezopiraka is obv on that list

Vote richard

conflicting claims

[CryMeARiver]

HOLY SHIT! REREADING NOW!!

[LimMePls]

HOLY SHIT! WAITING FOR ANSWERS TO SERIOUSLY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS NOW!

[danakillsu]

unvote vote:Budja

I don't know that Richard's claim is conflicting, could someone please explain that to me?
@mod
Your votecount has various problems involving Mina.

Fixed?

[hasdgfas]

HOLY SHIT! REREADING NOW!!

[I doubt it]

unvote vote:Budja

I don't know that Richard's claim is conflicting, could someone please explain that to me?

The gist of it seems to be that it's implausible that there's a full vig and a one-shot vig on the same alignment. I don't think it's impossible but yeah, now that I think about it, it would make more sense if one of the claims was false, or if Richard's claim is true too but he actually belongs to a Renly-based faction.

Eagerly awaiting whatever CMAR has to say for himself, although I doubt it will make a difference at this point.

[Mikujin]

I'm none too familiar with the source material, so I can speak for the sensibility of Raivann's claim, but it certainly seems to make sense. That said, several people have made worthy mention that it could be a fakeclaim; I assume the source material both has volume and variance enough that this could also be the case. I'm somewhat attracted to the idea Mina and Rifka are supporting - that is, giving him a list of targets - but is this a sound move? In some of the hypotheticals concerning Raivann:
1. His claim is good. He may be roleblocked or his target protected, preventing a kill. His claim goes unconfirmed.
2. It's a fakeclaim and he's a SK. Regardless of the outcome, it's going to be difficult to distinguish between Vig and SK if he does successfully kill someone on the list.
3. It's a fakeclaim and he's scum. His scumteam can target one of the people on the list, and Raivann can claim to have killed the target. Leads us back to questioning a Vig/SK scenario.

In light of this, I'm somewhat hesitant to trust Raivann's claim, but it seems with a vig claim, more people are going to be hesitant to lynch him (at least for today). If Raivann is not our lynch today, he and his claim should certainly be revisited.

unvote

For now, CMAR certainly looks like a good candidate for the D1 lynch. The loads of cases built on him, coupled with his extensive lack of posting (and recent "OH SHIT!" post) certainly do little to convince anyone he's anything but scum. Until CMAR answers some of the questions put forth to him, I have no problems with making him our lynch.

vote CMAR

Also:

Obv fakeclaim.

You were voting to raise CMAR.

I don't want to lynch a vig now.

If CMAR flips scum raviann should be obv scum.

Someone asked who I believe scum.
I believe both of them are scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CMAR

Vezo one again piques my attention with this post.
@ Vezo: What makes Raivann's claim an "obvious fakeclaim?" Furthermore, if his claim is fake, why do you say you "don't want to lynch a vig now?" If it's a fakeclaim, he's not a vig. Finally, is there anything to corroborate your belief that CMAR and Raivann seem to be working together? You state that if CMAR flips scum, Raivann is obviously scum as well, but I fail to see a connection between them. Please respond to these, Vezo, as once again it seems like you're just spouting nonsense to move between bandwagons.

[Benmage]

Oh, did not realize deadline had been pushed back.

[danakillsu]

unvote vote:Richard

I agree with the reasons given by others that his claim is probably not true. If he flips town, we'll know that Raivann is probably scum. If he flips scum we'll know that Raivann is probably town.
@Raivann
It probably is a good idea to tell us who you plan to kill tonight. It will at least tell us if you have an NK. You should wait for others to agree, but I can't think of anything wrong with this. It is very rare for scum to be able to save each other specifically (as in a doc), and mafia wouldn't try to kill that person to make you look like a vig, because if you are a vig, scum wants us to think you're not. So I really see no way that scum could use this to their advantage unless you are scum.

[vezokpiraka]

Raviann and CMAR have been working togheter.
Look at the last votecount before hand was raised.
Raviann is voting to raise CMAR.

[CSL]

We have time to make a lynch. Don't waste it.

Raivann's claim is not safe to assume to be clear. We should keep a close eye on him during this game.

As it was said before, if CMAR flips scum, Raivann is obvscum

Bud / Kleedrac is scummy still.

[Axelrod]

HOLY SHIT! REREADING NOW!!

You have got to be kidding me.

[Axelrod]

And Vig. is generally one of the worst false-claims a scum can make, because of the provable and repeatable nature of the ability, as well as the fact that you set yourself up to be shot at by an actual Town vig. Raivann will get caught/killed eventually if he is a Mafia. Sometimes a SK will try to false-claim vig. but that typically doesn't work for long either unless there is no actual Town vig.

I have less issues with the idea of there being a "full" vig. as well as a role that gifts a 1-shot vig. upon death in the same game. That simply isn't the same thing and is not unbalanced or unbelievable on it's face. I'd also believe, however, that there could be a "Renly" faction that might have it's own agenda in the game.

What I don't know is whether such a faction would be auto-considered "scum." Like, my Win Condition just mentions eliminating "scum" so I've got no basis to believe there are "Factions," it just seems like a possibility. Thematically, these Factions could be capable of winning along with the general Town, possibly having some additional Win Condition as well.

[Rifka Viveka]

You know the vanilla role PM is included in the OP so lets not get carried away with syntax analysis here

I know i was just opposing a CMAR lynch awile back, but im wavering in the face of his recent posts

[Mikujin]

Raviann and CMAR have been working togheter.
Look at the last votecount before hand was raised.
Raviann is voting to raise CMAR.

Raivann raised CMAR during his first post when he replaced in. I hardly consider that this means they're working together. That being said, you did answer one of my three questions; now, if you wouldn't mind answering the other two. For your convenience, I'll quote and mark them here:

@ Vezo:

(1) What makes Raivann's claim an "obvious fakeclaim?"

Furthermore, if his claim is fake,

(2)why do you say you "don't want to lynch a vig now?" If it's a fakeclaim, he's not a vig.

Finally, is there anything to corroborate your belief that CMAR and Raivann seem to be working together? You state that if CMAR flips scum, Raivann is obviously scum as well, but I fail to see a connection between them. Please respond to these, Vezo, as once again it seems like you're just spouting nonsense to move between bandwagons.