Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time Mafia..OVER! Was Hyrule saved?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Now, personally I think that Nayru would not be contained to a scum's fakeclaim in this game. This game's flavour is about ridding the land of evil, and the goddesses are always involved in that feat, for as much as I understand LoZ. Therefore it makes the most sense to me for Nayru to be town. Does that not make sense to you people?

The goddesses are not actually characters in the game. They are mentioned in the game's mythology, but that doesn't mean they're automatically in the game. I would think that we would only have characters that Link could interact with. That's just IMO. A goddess claim rings false to me because she isn't really in the game.

Nayrus in the game dude. She gives Link the spell Nayrus Love.

Ugh. You're right, she /IS/ in the game, in the opening scenes, and in the scenes where the history of hyrule is explained...

But it's actually a GREAT FAIRY who gives link the magic. The last time you see Nayru, is just before she departs up to the heavens, and makes the triforce.

[Untrod Tripod]

Now, personally I think that Nayru would not be contained to a scum's fakeclaim in this game. This game's flavour is about ridding the land of evil, and the goddesses are always involved in that feat, for as much as I understand LoZ. Therefore it makes the most sense to me for Nayru to be town. Does that not make sense to you people?

The goddesses are not actually characters in the game. They are mentioned in the game's mythology, but that doesn't mean they're automatically in the game. I would think that we would only have characters that Link could interact with. That's just IMO. A goddess claim rings false to me because she isn't really in the game.

Nayrus in the game dude. She gives Link the spell Nayrus Love.

Ugh. You're right, she /IS/ in the game, in the opening scenes, and in the scenes where the history of hyrule is explained...

But it's actually a GREAT FAIRY who gives link the magic

. The last time you see Nayru, is just before she departs up to the heavens, and makes the triforce.

Ed zachary

[jenniwren]

Okay…I finally caught up. (And have five pages of typed notes to prove it. I agree with Zwet. I hate you all. This week was already busy enough as it was.) Also, I am separating this post into smaller posts, as the original response was quite unmanageable and BC might kill me for it. This first part is to try to deescalate the current situation as well as to discourage repeats of it. And I had to put my teacher hat on to do this, so GG EVERYONE INVOLVED.

1) Fate is right. There has been too much debate about semantics and flavor.

Let me explain this from an outside perspective.

You’re having two separate debates.

I am completely oversimplifying each discussion here, but I think I’m being explicit enough that it shouldn’t be a problem for you to follow.

From my perspective, for LLD, the debate centers around the interpretation of the words “aquatic” and “verdant” and their respective uses in the game; for Ythan the debate centers around the legitimacy of Cupcake’s claim.
a. Post 1027 demonstrates that LLD and Ythan are on two separate wavelengths. LLD is trying to prove that the descriptor “aquatic” could be legitimately applied to Nayru; Ythan is trying to prove that Cupcake cobbled together a claim. These are two separate arguments.
b. In 1026, LLD says it’s disputable that Cupcake is really Nayru. She says it’s NOT disputable that Nayru is aquatic.
Again…two separate arguments going on here. I don’t think LLD is trying to vouch for Cupcake as much as she’s trying to prove that there might be some legitimacy to the claim and that it shouldn’t be rejected outright.

You two aren’t seeing the other’s perspective and don’t seem to realize that you’re not just on different pages—you’re in different books altogether.

This debate devolved into schoolyard taunts and both Ythan and LLD stopped communicating fairly quickly. Hint: If you want people to listen to you and understand you, calling them “fool,” “moron,” bumbling oaf,” etc. and saying people should be raped is not going to help you achieve your goal. That sort of language puts people on the defensive and makes communication extremely complicated, if not impossible. It's not fun to be attacked so relentlessly and so personally, and resorting to such behavior makes you a bully. Ythan, if you don't want to be called a bully, stop acting like one. LLD, if you want people to take you seriously, stick to the facts and avoid AtE. (BTW, I don't see any AtE in this discussion as a scumtell because it was unnecessarily provoked, just like it was with CK.)

Because of the escalated and hostile nature of this debate, it might be a good thing for Ythan and LLD to actually step back and look at what the other is saying and try to formulate a logical and succinct response to the other’s argument. If they are both town, they shouldn’t have a problem with this, as it is in the town’s best interests to communicate with other town and not make it harder to actually scumhunt.

[jenniwren]

Okay...just a little more for

now

.

2) I agree with LLD that someone having the claim “Aquatic Goddess” is possible. Whether or not Cupcake actually has that claim is debatable. Also, just because it's possible, doesn't mean it IS in the game.

The reason I agree with LLD is because “aquatic” is an adjective describing everything that falls under the purview of the noun “water,” not just water itself. Deities tend to be attached to particular elements/races/etc. in any culture, real or fictional (and Nayru is associated with water/ice/Zoras/etc.—I posted that block of text last night).

Prefacing the word “goddess” with a descriptor like “aquatic” actually makes sense to me, as does the use of the word “verdant” to describe an earth goddess. (“Verdant” means “green with vegetation”; it is absolutely logical that it

could

be a descriptor of races/goddesses/ whatever. Also, Zwet’s flavor says “non-verdant races,” which heavily implies that some races

will

be “verdant whatever,” and logic tells me that those races will be associated with geographical locations such as forests that have an abundance of green vegetation.)

3) Cupcake, meanwhile, has been oddly and uncharacteristically silent of late. It would be nice to hear from one, if not both, of the heads. They’re letting LLD defend them, which is only exacerbating the problems.

4) The scum are loving the confusion wrought by 50 pages in five days. Can we not do that again? I promise to try not to write anymore WoTs if we can avoid yet another explosion of "nyah-nyah"/"I rule and you drool" posts.

unvote

Until I get back.

[chesskid3]

Yup Jenni is town. Cool.

Also, this game is confirmed for longest ever at this rate?

[Bunnylover]

Hinduragi replaces EvilPacman, effective now!

NO NOT Hind! Hind IS EVIL! Hind IS EVIL!

[Le Cupcake]

@Jenni: Contrary to popular belief, RL does exist, and can in fact, be a total bitch.

That said, we will have time later today, so a post will be coming then.

[Hinduragi]

So, here I was, starting my re-read. This is what I took in:

50 pages. 50 x 25 = 1250 posts.

It was an "Aww hell" moment. Then I went to the first page again, and saw the game had started 5 days ago. 5 days = 50 pages = 10 pages/day. This means, that, even if I catch up, I'm going to constantly be behind once I post and get off. Cut me some slack, people.

[Bunnylover]

So, here I was, starting my re-read. This is what I took in:

50 pages. 50 x 25 = 1250 posts.

It was an "Aww hell" moment. Then I went to the first page again, and saw the game had started 5 days ago. 5 days = 50 pages = 10 pages/day. This means, that, even if I catch up, I'm going to constantly be behind once I post and get off. Cut me some slack, people.

Now do you understand why I'm checking this thread like every 30 minutes.

[Le Cupcake]

In my last dram game, we reached 10 pages in 6hrs. So cut yo complaining.

[Exilon]

Don't worry, Hindu. Main events so far have been Chesskid x Ythan and LE Cupcake / Lady Lambdadelta and Ythan.

[zwetschenwasser]

Le Cupkake = katsuki alt?

Unvote; Vote: Cupcake

[Le Cupcake]

This is the other head of Le Cupcake. Apologies for having been busy... We have finally had the chance to analyze.

Anythings, regarding Ythan's case and play:

1.

"Quote comes from game. Therefore, you are scum!"

As had been covered in the past few pages, this has been invalidated.

2.

"Nayru is not an aquatic Goddess. What a shitty fake claim."

LLD has posted plenty of references regarding the fact that Nayru is indeed often associated with water. We do not know the game. We cannot support our claim with in-game references.

BE then says

If you look at my iso, in the OTHER Zelda wiki, there are LOTS of references to water, zoras and aquatic nature.

That doesn't help if that's not the site that Reck+dram used.

because you know, there is NO WAY the mods used any other site, and you DEFINITELY know which sites they used. Yeah, no.

3.

So, why did we say that Ythan spew BS? Because he assumes that he is right without supporting your arguments against LLD apart from

“I know the game! It cannot possibly be that Nayru is aquatic and thus I will choose to ignore all your references and evidence that associate Nayru with water! Because, guess what, I say it’s impossible! Oh hey, other people like jenniwren and jmj have posted also claiming the link between Nayru and water."

Example:

Din flat out is fire. There is a reason her spell in the game is called "Din's Fire". So, using that logic and connection, its not such a leap to assume Nayru is aquatic and Farore is verdant. I have also always associated water with protection and Nayru's Love is out and out a protection spell...(irrelevant info omitted)

"That’s okay, I’ll choose to ignore them but telling them to post an analysis, even if it BLATANTLY clear what their point is (post 1003). And anyways, I’ll ignore their point anyways because they’re WRONG and I’m right. Yep, that’s it. I’ll just keep posting BS.”

4.

The following is about Ythan’s summary on page 41.

(here, here and here)

“Cupcake claims aquatic goddess. It’s incorrect.”

Why does he say this? Because he assumes that he knows everything about the flavor and how the mods worked the flavor from the actual games into this mafia game.

“LLD starts her defense. It’s not a good one. And she OMGUS’ed me.”

In actuality, Ythan fails to really refute any of her arguments beyond “It’s wrong!” For example, her reason for voting him in the first place

2.

You are pushing Against Cupcake with false information, hoping that no one will notice!

Much more likely. There is so little evidence against Cupcake, and you are scrounging to get more. This isn't something a townie should be doing.

VOTE: Ythan

He never comments on this, by the way, apart from saying it's proxy-OMGUS.

We activated Nayru’s Love to protect ourselves. This resulted in the cuccos being disintegrated into little blue particles. LLD points out that this is likely the blue force field known as Nayru’s Love because it is logical that when things collide into a force field, they disintegrate. Ythan’s refute?

“You’re lying.”

963 Lady LD claims that Cupcake was defended by a blue forcefield, ie Nayru's Love. Too bad she's completely lying.

Absolutely amazing refute, isn’t it? Ythan assumes he knows everything about this game, when in fact, it is completely false. He is not one of the mods, but yet he feels the need to strut around acting a god.

5.

“LLD is poorly defending Cupcake based on lies!”

This is just BS. Why? Because Ythan has thus far been unable to disprove anything without basing it off of flavor speculation. All he does is make forceful statements that are completely unsupported. And when others post relevant information that go against him, such as the cases with jenniwren and jmj, he ignores them. Ythan’s strategy is this: he makes strong accusations, calling people liars, hoping that the certainty in his words will completely mask his lack of proof, and thus win other people’s support. This tactic is commonly used, not just in mafia. One uses emotive words and assertive claims so that others will be more inclined to listen/believe them without probing any deeper.

6.

LLD points out Ythan’s lack of proof and his constant defenses that consist of

“You’re lying. I’m right.”

What is Ythan’s response?

“Quit whining. I don’t care”

which is a reflection of all his arguments.

And I'll note that you provide NO PROOF that I am lying. You just come out and say it. You flood the chat with meaningless drabble, just to make it look re-searched, when nothing in your statements is based on FACT.

You keep saying "I LIED". Prove it. Other wise, you are the liar.

I'm

explaining

why you're a liar. You don't need to make three posts in a row to complain about it.

Your explanation shows no "proof".

All you say is "You're lying" or "I'm right, stop complaining".

Prove it, scum. Defend yourself with logic, or be ignored. Honestly.

Keep whining. It really doesn't matter. I don't need to spoonfeed this to you ad nauseum.

The fact is that he has no proof for what he says beyond

“I know the Zelda game and the mods definitely wouldn’t do that. I know exactly what the mods would/have chosen to do in this game.”

_______________________________________________

You're just saying you've done things or that I've done things and you don't refer to them specifically because you're as completely full of shit as your case and you're hoping someone will be stupid enough to take your word for it. Please sit in a corner until enough players check in for us to lynch you or your scumbuddy.

PRETTY MUCH SUMS UP WHAT YTHAN HAS BEEN DOING FOR THE PAST 20 PAGES OR SO.

[Mafuyu]

Hey, Mafuyu needs to read about 15 pages here. Losing two days hurt.

[Chronopie]

Holy thread explosion batman.

--

Jenniwren looks town.

I still agree with LLD over Ythan, and the cupcake has made a good summation of Ythan's shortfall.

Zwet's a bit behind, they (hydra) admitted to katsuki being a head several days ago.

Hai Hinduragi.

--

But I am concerned over one line:

We activated Nayru’s Love to protect ourselves. This resulted in the cuccos being disintegrated into little blue particles. LLD points out that this is likely the blue force field known as Nayru’s Love because it is logical that when things collide into a force field, they disintegrate. Ythan’s refute?

“You’re lying.”

Activated

Nayru’s Love. As in not a passive ability, but rather as though Cupcake somehow

knew

an attack was coming.

[Le Cupcake]

No, we activated it at the beginning of the day.

I believe I have already mentioned it being an active ability, rather than a passive.

[DTMaster]

I decided to drop my earlier notes I was going to post and focus on what's happening now. I'm super behind and rather be useful.

1. Kai this post talks about obv town Zwets. Can you explain your read on him via meta links if possible? Edit: This was explained. Don't need to answer.

Self Note: Double miller claims reveals also an element of mirroring (see Day/Night mafia in my wiki). It's possible to break the game via claims later at the MC stage.

Also in the post below saturation of flavour arguments generally come from scum. I relate back to my play in Mafia of Order and Gorrad's play in Kingdom Hearts Mafia (both in my wiki); where I/Gorrad used flavour analysis to mislead the town. I agree that both LL and Ythan at this point looks suspicious. The game is Mafia, not LoZ OoT. Flavour makes the game enjoyable if you know it, but it shouldn't be the basis of the game.

Aside: Dram does usually keep accurate to the flavour (See both Disgaea and CEBM). But he counters it with fake claims. The only effectiveness may come from flavour cops, but speculating on flavour should come up if that role is claimed/determined.

2. Ythan I'm confused you are saying Dram broke flavour and modified it. Le gasp roles are independent of alignments ? D: /sarcasm. It's a theory I adopt usually in theme games (Especially both Nikanor and I designed games like that). I'd also apply it here even with Dram's meta of accuracy just because it leads nowhere.

3. Kai I still love you <3. I take constructive criticism well (and hope to not anger the Troll next time ).

4. Oi Gandalf this post is way terrible for the reasons outlined earlier. If you want to prove Chess' townieness we'd let him kill himself. If he's town it's more productive to do that rather then instant lynch the guy who can prove his alignment.

5. A point about BP discussions. BPs are useful when they are unknown. Now that Cupcake's BP status is known, it doesn't function as a good town PR because scum know where to direct the kills away from. That part of the role has served it's purpose. It's up to the other PRs to make use of that knowledge (ie redirect to the BPs) and go from there.

6. BL given this post on your stance on why you defended Chesskid Did you realize that both Cupcake and I offered ourselves to be vanillied up? It's a controlled situation. I don't mind the whole: Chesskid was anti-town based on gameplay, but this issue could have been solved so much easier. Stating that you are worried about chess' use of his power is null because the moment chess betrays the town we caught instant scum. The moment Chess vanillized people we have potential cleared townies (barring other weird roles like 3rd parties or multiple scum factions).

Think of it as risk vs reward, and the reward of catching fake Chess gives us 2 trust worthy townies to lean on with a caught Chess.

7. Something about Evil pacman's vote seems off. here I'd totally investigate this person on the basis of this unvote because I read: active lurking. Mental note: keep an eye out about evilpacman since this could be a sign that he's keeping up with the wagon progression under the guise of reading.

Edit: YAY someone else sees this!

Edit 2: Ehhhhhh jmj did the same thing. Keep a mental check on both players. Reminder do a search on these user's post history.

8. OMG A LYNCH WOULDN'T GO TOWARDS A LYNCH WITHOUT A CLAIM UNLESS SCUM PREMEDITATEDLY HAMMDARED YOU OR WE HAVE RETARDED TOWNIES. KALM DOWN FATE AND CHRONO.

9. ZOMG, Zwet literally claimed PGO except more awesome since he can save people!!111.11.1.111. via reflex power. That role would be fun, and hard to play as.

10. Omg Flavour fight. Before I read on with this ridiculous debate

Ythan I assume you claim that your role does not have the quote from the Zelda wiki and you are counterclaiming Le Cupcake for this

because this is getting beyond retarded in terms of scum hunting. That's the only logical explanation for this line of argument.

Break time since I have a headache. I'll take a stronger stance once I finish. I'll also return to post my update on my BE vote since I left off there but I skipped a head to post some analysis I thought was important.

[Hinduragi]

Wait, what? Chess, why aren't you willing to vanillaize Mafuyu and/or one of those who asked to be vanillaized?

Holy thread explosion batman.

Based on my reread, I'm pretty sure it happens often in here. Also, hey.

I'm on page 30 right now. Still, I'm kinda pissed that there's more spam than anything else in this thread. Based on that latest votecount I just looked at, some content is going to be made in the next 20 pages, so I'll be reading these now.

[Bunnylover]

[quote=DTMaster]6. BL given this post on your stance on why you defended Chesskid Did you realize that both Cupcake and I offered ourselves to be vanillied up? It's a controlled situation. I don't mind the whole: Chesskid was anti-town based on gameplay, but this issue could have been solved so much easier. Stating that you are worried about chess' use of his power is null because the moment chess betrays the town we caught instant scum. The moment Chess vanillized people we have potential cleared townies (barring other weird roles like 3rd parties or multiple scum factions).[/quote]
I was posting that, that was my reason for keeping my vote on Chess. At the moment, Chess having that power was like OMG NO HE CAN HURT TOWN! It wasn't until much later that people started volunteering themselves for Chess to vaniliza them.

[chesskid3]

I'm not vanillizing tonight, for like the nth time. If it ever gets to the point where you guys want me to vanillize, I'll vanillize chosen targets, but N1 odds are i'll hit two town.

[Hinduragi]

That's more or less why I asked you why you'd vanillaize your top two scumreads instead of mafuyu and a volunteer when you were being pressured. I know you aren't going to vanillaize tonight.

[chesskid3]

because volunteering to be vanillized (the first 1-2 people who did it) = towntell.

[Bunnylover]

I'm not vanillizing tonight, for like the nth time. If it ever gets to the point where you guys want me to vanillize, I'll vanillize chosen targets, but N1 odds are i'll hit two town.

I think thats the point. The two people who are asking for vanillize either have roles that fails, or a role that has a restriction on them or others.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'm not vanillizing tonight, for like the nth time. If it ever gets to the point where you guys want me to vanillize, I'll vanillize chosen targets, but N1 odds are i'll hit two town.

I think thats the point. The two people who are asking for vanillize either have roles that fails, or a role that has a restriction on them or others.

Didn't YOU offer to be vanillized?

[chesskid3]

I thought they were volunteering for the vanillize because they wanted to not waste lynch on me and they didnt have super-important abilities