Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time Mafia..OVER! Was Hyrule saved?

[RayFrost]

... it's not a policy wagon.

Read my posts. There's a case.

Also, read my posts; LL's argument about cupcake's claim was sound and has no alignment tells in it. You two arguing over it created hostility without any actual scumtells. It's Town On Town, no scum involved between you two, though scum likely engaged in promoting the argument.

See through your own emotional attachment to being right.

[Ythan]

I know that being able to actually read players is an acquired skill but in the mean time please just let me handle this one thx ray.

[Hinduragi]

I like the Substrike wagon(If it can even be called that at this point) more than any of the opposing ones right now. Still, if the GIS wagon starts to take off, it's time for Cupcake to hang. Her lynch has a hell of a lot more stands and opinions on it than anyone else's. It's like a 3-in-1 opinion with more discussion around it meaning more info.

[Exilon]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

Read with a bit more attention. This is the lynch for today. It gets us more info than any other lynch due to connections we can make. Also, summing everything up, LLD is pretty scummy.

Connections we can get amount to:
Fate
Cupcake
Chess
Ythan
Off the top of my head.

Who disagrees with this and why, aside of those who have already pronnounced themselves?

[RayFrost]

I don't see how those connections don't also apply to cupcake, if you are going purely based off of a

lolconnections

reasoning. Care to explain your choice of one over the other?

Care to wax philosophical on why LL is scummy?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

Read with a bit more attention. This is the lynch for today. It gets us more info than any other lynch due to connections we can make. Also, summing everything up, LLD is pretty scummy.

Connections we can get amount to:
Fate
Cupcake
Chess
Ythan
Off the top of my head.

Who disagrees with this and why, aside of those who have already pronnounced themselves?

I don't see how those connections don't also apply to cupcake, if you are going purely based off of a

lolconnections

reasoning. Care to explain your choice of one over the other?

Care to wax philosophical on why LL is scummy?

^This. If you can't make logical connections without pushing for a lynch on someone you can't even provide a legitimate argument against, then how can we expect you to make the correct inferences, even WITH said connections?

This vote seems almost opportunistic to me. Riding Ythan's coattails.

[RayFrost]

Meh, vote's not that opportunistic in my opinion. It seems more lazywantingthegamedaytoend than trying to take advantage of any tide or somesuch. It' have been oportunistic if he said that before I came in.

LL, watch your OMGUS. Your reads are going haywire because of it.

[Kdub]

I was unexpectedly V/LA the past couple days. I'll catch up and post later today.

[Exilon]

I know Ythan agrees with me and I don't really have to do anything else because you're scum. I can see the nervous in that post. That last line?
Like Rayfrost mentioned, OMGUS.

Not lazy hunting, I simply want this day to move forward and LLD is the best bet because, well... GIS isn't. And the others can follow suit. All major cases today are linked to LLD. Etc. Ad infinitum.
WHOEVER DISAGREES STATE WHY.

[Exilon]

I don't see how those connections don't also apply to cupcake, if you are going purely based off of a lolconnections reasoning. Care to explain your choice of one over the other?

~

How is Cupcake linked to Chess, for example?
How does Cupcake's flip reveal anything note-worthy relating to him? Or Ythan?

I've said why LLD is scummy sometimes, and I wasn't the only one.
Buddying, 'chainsaw' defense (in a way), flavor speculation which doesn't lead anywhere and comes out of context, and an overall 'I'm trying to look townie' vibe.

I'm sick of Day 1. Let's move forward.

[chesskid3]

Substrike is vigbait then?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

OBJECTION!
Nayru is the guardian goddess of the Zora! Of the three sacred stones, she is represented by the Zora's Saphire (blue). She is an /aquatic/ goddess, because she is the guardian of the aquatic race!

The attack her her flavor failure, and it is despite you not knowing any better, came after I started the attack. It's not the meat of it. Sorry you missed that.

Valid point, Ythan defends himself very nicely.

Nice rebuttal! Except you didn't address the point at all and it still stands. Why are you flailing, you're not even the one in trouble. Or you weren't, anyway.

(Directed at Le Cupcake) Very valid point, exactly the same as mine.

And

This is a quick way to get some kind of feel for how the term verdant is used in the Zelda universe.

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Special:Search ... dant&go=Go

It is always used in the sense of Hyrule's health.

Valid point about the nature of Verdant.

Cupcake hobbled together a fakeclaim based on scraps from other claims. Adds a quote from the top of the first google result for "Nayru", in the same format. She hasn't given any more since. Lady L makes the argument that Nayru must be aquatic because the Zora are, and Kokiri are verdant. Except the Kokiri are not verdant and the only reference we have seen to that word is that Barinade, a jellyfish, is not, as part of a miller claim. Verdant clearly means what it always means in the Zelda universe, and not forest-related. So Lady's defense of the fakeclaim is built on air. When Lady comes back to the defense after dropping it to omgus for a bit she gets into how Cupcake used a blue forcefield, Nayru's Love. Except she never did this. Lie.

And very valid summary of Ythan's position. Now, this is more than enough for anyone outside of the current discussion get the feel of Ythan's stance.

---

I will show you why Aquatic is accepted.

POINT A: KING ZORA IS CLAIMED AS AQUATIC. NOT "WATER" BUT AQUATIC. WE CAN ASSUME ALL WATER CREATURES WILL BE "AQUATIC".
POINT B: NAYRU IS CLAIMED AS AQUATIC. THIS POINT IS DISPUTED.
POINT C: IT IS PROVEN THAT NAYRU IS THE GODDESS OF THE SEAS, WATER AND THE ZORA'S. THIS ASSOCIATES HER WITH WATER/ZORA'S.
POINT D: ZORA IS AQUATIC. WE CAN ASSUME WATER IS CALLED AQUATIC (thanks to chesskid).

ERGO, NAYRU IS AN /AQUATIC/ GODDESS.

CHECKMATE.

Also very valid explanation of Lady Lambdadelta's aquatic theory. With this, she says she can believe Cupcake's claim because it is consistent. I can agree with this, and I can see where she is coming from.
the fact is that a point made by a player is a valid as the other one, and therefore, you can't exactly reach an agreement, as we have seen so far. Hence my last post- no real need to repeat myself.

---

If there is a shift, I will know tonight. Still, Kai:

I got a PM that told me I couldn't target a wagon with no votes on it, which means that there's some sort of shift. I then got a second message that said that the first message was wrong. So it appears I've hit a wagon that I didn't want to.

If you got a message saying the first message was wrong, doesn't that mean there was some kind of error?
MOST probably there isn't a shift.

---

Bold is mine:

What the F*k is Spirith

Have you not played the game? Forest, fire, water, shadow, spirit, light. These are the elements that we are working with, if any.

Why, why, aren't you Ythill, he would have understood me right away. Yes I have played.

Each of Ythan and Lady L have made valid points

Please select and present one valid point each of us has posted so it doesn't look like you're waffling.

Zong done.

In other words, 'the fact you're not doing anything productive is my accusation.'

Except it didn't become her accusation until she was pressed to actually explain. Context reading is really important Exilon.

This was in another game, and it just served as an example for me to say her sentence wasn't really right. Not to say the stance was the exact same.

Hey LAdy Lambdadelta, it'd seem you've got a doublevoter. Whoho. G4U

Or there's a mistake?

Doesn't really matter guessing, I just threw that there.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

>.< ignore that. I was reading Exilons Iso, and accidentally did that >.<

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I'd like to point out that you accused me of buddying up with YTHAN earlier in the game, as seen in your ISO #6.

[Just a Bit Off-Center]

The Ythan-Cupcake-Lady exchange honestly...is uninteresting and trying to get an accurate stance on it will probably waste away all my energy for reading this thread.

BE on the other hand, has done nothing,

nothing

in this game, apart from follow others lead, and use other's posts as justification. First, sheeping Ythan in a flavour based attack on Cupcake and LLD. The latter of which seem like a townie very much enthused about the flavour, the former... slightly scummy for sitting back and letting LLD defend solo. Secondly, sheeping Fate for idk what reason, in voting me.

VOTE: BE

HoS: Fate

I still dislike how Fate's making a BS push on me, much like in Reck's Philly game. Unfortunately, the fact that he was town in that game, and made about the same level of case, leaves me puzzled.

Why didn't anyone comment on this?!

I think his stance on BE is inaccurate; there are several worse offenders of sheeping and the like. Reads as bullshit he had to make up. And...he's trying to pass suspicion on Fate for

following his town meta?!

I'm in disbelief by Chronopie's uselessness and avoidance of anything you could remotely call scumhunting.

Hey! Rayfrost! Mafuyu hasn't gotten to play with you yet. This should be awesome.

In addition, the fact that two heads came up with what was essentially a garbage summation and had the audacity to all-caps a finishing "die scum" comment is...exactly what they would do in any situation. God damn. The idiocy screen is too potent in the pair.

Unvote Vote Nikanor

Mafuyu wants to see what your involvement in the Ythan-Cupcake-LLD triangle is.

Nikanor has made it pretty clear for a long time that Ythan is obvscum. What's the real reason for this vote?

I actually like Exilon's vote. Seems genuine enough to me.

RayFrost, do you have actual evidence that

By the hydra being scum, they can make use of shotty's VI rep to allow them to support pretty much any wagon and then, whenever pressure is applied, gandalf can come in and go "lolwut? SHOTTY STOP FUCKING UP" to excuse things.

is more likely than the alternative?

Hinduragi hasn't done much to change my pacman read and there's a decent chance that he's bussing Substrike, but I don't think I can convince anyone of that at this point.

Likely moving my vote. Would like to hear the end of the Exilon-RayFrost exchange and get an answer from RayFrost first, though.

[Exilon]

Why don't you get on LD's wagon then, cutie?

[Exilon]

Nevermind that post^~
Read it as: 'you should join now to get better answers and to get the day moving faster'

[Hinduragi]

Hinduragi hasn't done much to change my pacman read and there's a decent chance that he's bussing Substrike, but I don't think I can convince anyone of that at this point.

Good one. How about you help out the Substrike wagon since you think he's scum and put your vote there and find out.

[Exilon]

Hindu, why don't you join Lady's wagon? She's more certainly scum than Cupcake and substrike are. They might be scummy but she is more.

[Hinduragi]

I'm pretty sure that she's town. Scum doing what she has done in Day 1 would attract too much attention. Plus she's new(I think) to the site, and in the newbie games I played in, newer scum were alot more likely to avoid attention. Plus she does have some town tells. I don't like the LL wagon much, really.

[zwetschenwasser]

I still think we should lynch the mod. Hinduragi, what are the town tells you describe? Everything else you said is WIFOM.

[Kdub]

I'm getting a bit of a negative vibe from Ray. He's been more active and helpful in terms of making cases and pushing suspects than what I remember of his town play in the past. With that said, I agree with the Gandalf wagon. Being a hydra can explain some inconsistencies in opinion, but it shouldn't serve as an automatic excuse for poor play, e.g. post 1396.

Hindu, why don't you join Lady's wagon? She's more certainly scum than Cupcake and substrike are. They might be scummy but she is more.

Earlier in the game, you voted Cupcake (post 1063). From that point on, you don't really say much about LL, the only things you mention actually seem a bit positive (1138 - agreeing with her flavor speculation, 1405 - asking Fate why LL is scum). You then switched your vote to LL, claiming it would give more information and that she has been scummy. But what changed between your vote of Cupcake and your most recent post I quoted where you think LL is more scummy? Most of your points against LL had already happened when you voted Cupcake, so I don't understand the change of opinion.

BE on the other hand, has done nothing,

nothing

in this game, apart from follow others lead, and use other's posts as justification. First, sheeping Ythan in a flavour based attack on Cupcake and LLD. The latter of which seem like a townie very much enthused about the flavour, the former... slightly scummy for sitting back and letting LLD defend solo. Secondly, sheeping Fate for idk what reason, in voting me.

VOTE: BE

HoS: Fate

I still dislike how Fate's making a BS push on me, much like in Reck's Philly game. Unfortunately, the fact that he was town in that game, and made about the same level of case, leaves me puzzled.

Why didn't anyone comment on this?!

I think his stance on BE is inaccurate; there are several worse offenders of sheeping and the like. Reads as bullshit he had to make up. And...he's trying to pass suspicion on Fate for

following his town meta?!

I'm in disbelief by Chronopie's uselessness and avoidance of anything you could remotely call scumhunting.

I agree with this, remember I pointed out Chrono's original reasoning for voting BE was because he was just following Cupcake, who he thought was town. If that's not the definition of "sheeping", then I don't know what is. Now it looks like he's trying to dig up some reasons to justify his stance. I'd be in favor of a Chrono wagon as well.

[DTMaster]

1. Ugh sorry I had a massive head cold and I'm catching up in my assignments and readings. I decided to start a little fresh after the head ache of the LL/Cupcake/Ythan debacle. The more I think of it the more it reads as

over compensating with flavour

.

I refer back to my game in KH mafia where Gorrad the "most pro town player" focused on flavour all game to distract the town in almost lynching the town tracker Riku who millierizes himself when he uses his power. Riku uses the power of darkness which spiralled into flavour fights and almost lynching said person till DGB replaced that person and set things right. Everything about this triangle debate reads as something very simillar to that.

Ythan also ignored many of Nikanor's

Mafia Game Play

arguments in regards to the claiming of said protective power. Gut instincts say I'd investigate Ythan. He fits this case of: Gorradism.

Edit: Rayfrost you remember this game since you were in it. I believe the general consensus was Gorrad was over zealous town with flavor. But I do believe that even the most towniness of players never forsake general mafia game play due to flavour.

2. Mothrax needs a wagon. Much like Chrono. Both go on my Kill list. Both BE and Fate outlined the reasons already. Both of these players are doing the dance around their aggressors. I hope to see a wagon around either players.

3. Ughhh Gandalf/Shotty Hydra I want to kill it with fire. Mainly from the Shotty head. Contradictions are killing my brain. I already see the fires coming from the anti-towness of Shotty. It comes with the list I put up Zwet in terms of noise.

Edit: I missed the soft claim since I started later. I went back and now I'm worried about Shottyism which is induced stupidity. Meta evidence says: the soft claim is legit but how he handled it. Rayfrost's case at this point (page 60 - 61) is good with the contradiction between heads / stances. But when I read Deke's point about the soft claim I do see his argument. But something about Meta said: stupidity weighs in over this.

A poorly designed soft claim can be from the result of stupidity. I find it odd that GIS wanted to be vanillized as well. I was only aware that both Cupcake and I were the original targets to be chosen at the start with chess.

Note to self look this up. Timing is critical to when GIS stated he wanted to be vanillized. If it's after chess' statement about towniness, then it's a potential source of brownie points.

Also I find Deke's point about defence poor due to the buddy argument. It's often done with Ythill if you ever played with him. Um, invitational 7 with has-cow had Faraday buddy with Ythill all game who was my scum bud. I did a scum read-bus on Faraday in that game pointing this out and Ythill was getting hints of that and counted Faraday as potential scum. Linking LL and Cupcake is too much of a stretch.

4. Untrod.... omg he's trying to incite the cupcake debate again. Kill him now. Noise alert.

5. Substrike. You hadn't had anything to say except you think Cupcake is scummy in your own reasonings outside the flavour analysis. Your contradiction between flavour noise and scum arguments is weird here since the majority of the posts have been this "noise you've been reading". Post here. You also talk about play style not being an indicator of alignment... which is nice except it support's Rayfrost's argument:

So what? What's the point? What are these scum arguments?

6. Ok... so you agree with the GIS case but you keep your cupcake vote because you're not done your reread? Why are you complaining about the pressure when you're not making use of your vote? I don't mind this wagon I think it needs to take off.

If any of you are unfamilliar with my lists, my reads go as this:
Lynch
Mothrax/Chrono

Kill
Zwet, Gandalf, Untrod

Investigate
Ythan

These are the actions I would do if I were Vig/Cop. They are not directing said roles as: Lynch = scum reads. Kill = anti-town read and include my lynch list. Investigate = gut reads. Any real vigs/cops should follow their own reads. This is how I roll and you can look that up if you don't believe me.

Unvote Vote Substrike

. My brain is here. I'm going to stop since I'm still sick. I'll read more (last page) and do my self note above.

[RayFrost]

I don't see how those connections don't also apply to cupcake, if you are going purely based off of a lolconnections reasoning. Care to explain your choice of one over the other?

~

How is Cupcake linked to Chess, for example?
How does Cupcake's flip reveal anything note-worthy relating to him? Or Ythan?

I've said why LLD is scummy sometimes, and I wasn't the only one.
Buddying, 'chainsaw' defense (in a way), flavor speculation which doesn't lead anywhere and comes out of context, and an overall 'I'm trying to look townie' vibe.

I'm sick of Day 1. Let's move forward.

>Same claimed elemental additive, plus chess took a stance on the cupcake's flavor debate even if he didn't get into a debacle of a fight with Ythan. Connection Exists.

>Ythan was

attacking cupcake

over

flavor speculation

. Clear Connection.

>I've buddied with people (prominent example: fate). Would you say that I'm scummy for doing so? There's also a difference between

saying someone's town or that you like their play

and buddying. One's idle commentary / giving a read, the other is a subtle attempt to get on people's good side.

>It's not chainsaw defense to tell Ythan that he's wrong (pro-tip: he

was

wrong), get pissed off when he accuses her of being scum defending a scumbuddy and end up in a bashing contest with him. It's called correcting someone and being mad when they insult you. Null tell. Attacking someone that's caused negative emotions = emotional reaction, not scum/town reaction.

>If you are going to call her out for flavor speculation, you should also call out ythan and everybody else that even partially engaged in the debate surrounding cupcake's claim. Null tell, unless a

lot

of people are scummy.

>"I'm trying to look townie" vibe is displayed by... what? Is it displayed by the fact she's defending herself? Is it displayed by the vehemence in which she does so? Strength of self-defense is not indicative of alignment, especially when the same reasoning is being put forth for why a person should be lynched. Repeated argument that's been defended against = exasperation = increasingly vehement defense.

>And then you add "I'm sick of day 1, let's move forward" which is clearly what I'd said before "tryingtogetthedaytoendalready" mentality.

RayFrost, do you have actual evidence that

By the hydra being scum, they can make use of shotty's VI rep to allow them to support pretty much any wagon and then, whenever pressure is applied, gandalf can come in and go "lolwut? SHOTTY STOP FUCKING UP" to excuse things.

is more likely than the alternative?

I actually have a relevant post. Also keep in mind that it's just a listed possibility. I don't feel that either one's particularly more likely than the other. I just feel that it's not good to try and give a bye based upon "lolhydraignoreallcontradictions" type mentalities.

Preview edit:

Yes, I was in that game, DTM. I recall that, which is why Ythan isn't superlolobvtown for me. Still, thank you for actively pointing it out (I didn't recall the exact game)

[Substrike22]

5. Substrike. You hadn't had anything to say except you think Cupcake is scummy in your own reasonings outside the flavour analysis. Your contradiction between flavour noise and scum arguments is weird here since the majority of the posts have been this "noise you've been reading". Post here. You also talk about play style not being an indicator of alignment... which is nice except it support's Rayfrost's argument:

So what? What's the point? What are these scum arguments?

I'm not sure what you mean by "noise you've been reading". Clarify? I fail to see the contradictions in my posts. I'm ignoring most of the flavor arguments and I haven't participated in them myself, because I feel they distract from scum hunting. How is this a contradiction from anything I've said?

Play style isn't always an indicator, but I don't see any argument involving Cupcake's "play style" from me. I've argued that Ythan's bullying of people is not an indicator of alignment, but I generally find someone who posts 20 times and makes exactly 1 semi-relevant post to be as "active lurking" as it gets, for example with Cupcake.