Stars Aligned III - The Tenth Day

[nopointinactingup]

I think it was VP and Wicked.
You didn't have a question on your last post. You were saying both of us are cult?

[Furpants_Tom]

I think it was VP and Wicked.
You didn't have a question on your last post. You were saying both of us are cult?

Sorry, the question I was referring to was

Sorry; I dropped the question in that last post.

Who were the other "middle townies" that you considered?

I meant to post it in a single post.

But no, I'm not saying you're both scum. I think *one* of you saved wicked. But I don't know who, yet.

[VP Baltar]

I've fallen back in the game a bit, but quickly:

I also love that point 2 and 4 (which I’m not bothering to address directly as they say basically ‘VP’s opinion of this is scummy’, which I disagree with) amount to ‘I’m not scum-hunting’ yet when I put together a case on RC it’s scummy. Lovely. Decide which direction you want to push VP.

WTF? Those aren't really personal opinions at all so much as they are facts based on your play and voting record. This is the same shit you were saying to VV earlier and it's a nonsensical comparison of apples and oranges. You're not scumhunting and what little you are trying to push as scumhunting (RC) is pitiful. That's an opinion, but I think for anyone who goes back and reads that PBPA of yours it should be somewhat obvious. And I don't see why you are not answering my point about AV. That's just facts and I think it deserves a response. As do others apparently, so chop chop.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: that's an opinion, but it's backed up by your words in thread. I'm not passing empty judgement on what you've written.

[VasudeVa]

Trilo makes a good argument. However, I'm with Spy in saying that Fate Town is Fate Town, thus a waste of insanities/cult dust opportunity. No dispatch here, but I now have no problem with the dispatchers.

---

Bold and italics for emphasis. Unless you are saying that that single statement is your entire case on MoI (which you have stated is not true), then you have misrepresented the section as a whole. I specifically stated that I read the statement in context and it didn't make sense. I never claimed to understand the case, actually I stated otherwise and asked for clarification on the case:

Fair enough. However, that is not the meat of the case.

I am looking for your intention and motives in attacking MoI, along with reasoning. When I read a lot of "VOTE MOI KTHX" style posting it serves no purpose and doesn't express to me why you want MoI lynched. You are not furthering your case. When I went back to read the situation between your two I noted that a lot of your recent posting was as such, and couldn't surmise your case on MoI. I did not understand your attack on MoI (Here your statement that I didn't understand the case applies, with the exception that I never claimed to understand it.).

Intentions and motives: I read MoI as scum that needs to be lynched for the Town victory. That should be pretty obvious, and this question is both silly AND scummy.
Reasoning: In my ISO..somewhere. If you disagree with it, feel free to nitpick the case, not the attempts to gather votes thx. If you are going to defend MoI, then at least read the case in question. Silly question, maybe scummy. #1.

As for not furthering my case: The case had been finished D1. I don't NEED to further it. I didn't say 'Ohh, I'm reading MoI as possible scum because of <insert list of suspicions here>'. No, I said 'MoI IS SCUM. CASE IS DONE, READ.'. Why do I need to further a case that has already been completed? Silly scummy question #2.

You really are defending MoI for the sake of defending MoI. Glad I caught on it early.

---

People who need to post: Bro-drius, Feysal

[manho]

done iso on MoI, but he is town.

why? I want a damn explanation of these town reads on him because I see nothing to indicate that.

his attack of furcolow's confirmness is not something cult will do, and so hard. i think they would have given up that argument long before MoI did. they won't want that much attraction that early on an unlikely mislynch.

WHY do you not think [Benmage]'s cult? What has he done to make you think that?

that would be the greatest gambit if he is really cult and not being caught soon. there are too many risk for a cult to claim stalking someone, without any reason.

Your basic argument is that you don't believe that cultists take risks, right? And so far you've absolved BenMage, MoI, and LostButterfly of cultic tendencies because they've all played too dangerously, correct?

So I'm curious - Manho, where would scum be trying to direct attention today?

it is not that cult won't take risks, but that the risk is overwhelming the advantage. benmage will be murdered or lynched sooner or later, at least before N6 when he can achieve the murderer wincon. MoI is pushing for that impossible mislynch when no cult-buddies are supporting him. LB is not cult, but for another reason, that they are not supposed to be the expendable cult that would be responsible for all the insanities, so LB obtaining the insanity by crafting 3 fetishes is unlikely.

Does anyone genuinely believe this kill is more likely to hit scum than town?

me.

Manho, who do you think Benmage is targeting?

i've no idea, as i haven't read day 1 yet.

[Trilobite]

his attack of furcolow's confirmness is not something cult will do, and so hard. i think they would have given up that argument long before MoI did. they won't want that much attraction that early on an unlikely mislynch.

I would argue that furc is a perfect subject to tunnel on for cult. His play style is often the subject of much debate and many would excuse MoI for his push because it is

furc

. Also, if the wagon picked up steam and he was lynched, flipping town, MoI can just flip back to his first post touting it was for the good of the town.

However, the main reason I find his heavy handed push on furc so scummy is because it enables to allow MoI to look like he is scum hunting when he isn't.

= = = = = =

I think I’ve clearly indicated above my opinion on Furc. If you want to call what is in effect a Policy push on an absolutely useless player (IMO) scummy that’s your call. Given the end of Clash of Kings I know that you know exactly why I don’t want VI players around at endgame. The fact that you are specifically going out of your way to ignore your direct knowledge gives me pause.

All this ignores the glaring fact that if you are so apposed to VI's you could stalk/vig furc and be done with it. That way you keep your furchate, that had no bearing on the game, out of the thread and done something useful. Like, oh I don't know.... Scumhunting perhaps?

Right back at you Sotty. Your entire argument as to why I’m scum is ‘gut’ and filled with no support – weak sauce as you say. I don’t like the direction your arguments have taken because they very much remind me of your Newbie scum game. Your statement above is further indicative. Lots of backhanded insults (re knowing who posted) and accusations – very disproporatiate to the attention I’ve give you. So, yeah, chalk me up for a similar ‘gut’ scum-read on you.

You might wanna recheck that meta. I'm more logical scum than gut scum, but unless you can make a stronger connection based off more recent meta... AKA a game that isn't nine months old I might be willing to listen.

Also why does it matter that you haven't given me very much attention? We, as in our whole hydra, find you scummy, that doesn't have anything to do with how much you focus on us.

The comment about knowing who posted wasn't backhanded. It was clear who has been posting and you made a mountain out of a mole hill for a situation that wasn't even scummy in the first place.

I have noticed that you don't actively defend posts, you just attack your attackers with the hope of smearing them in your dirt making people forget the actual points against you. I don't like it.

= = = = = =

Furpants:

Suspecting the two rezzers is one thing, but do you think they are both likely cult? I don't have an issue with the rest of your suspects, just the lingering annoyance that I had to call you out for you to start scum hunting again.

~Sotty

[Wickedestjr]

I don't like MoI's defense on page 85. Another thing making me reconsider my read of him.

I'll respond to kunkstar later.

Regarding the grave robbing. If we dispatch Fate, we'll have four graves to rob: Fate, ReaperCharlie, Lost Butterfly, and the Day 2 Lynch. I think I should rob the graves of Lost Butterfly and the Day 2 Lynch and Furcolow should rob the graves of Fate and ReaperCharlie. In addition, we should also have two other players robbing graves that we suspect to be cult or murderer. I think finding murderers will be hard considering we don't have any night actions results to help us out (if somebody does have information suggesting that somebody isn't an investigator, then I think they should claim it now), but finding/stopping the murderer is very important in this game specifically. This is true based on the reason I gave earlier: with one murderer in the game, two of the three conditions they have to fulfill to win they basically don't have to worry about. The only thing the murderer has to do to win is murder three times, so we only have four nights at minimum to stop them. My plan:

Fate - Robbed by Furcolow and Player A
ReaperCharlie - Robbed by Furcolow and Player B
Lost Butterfly - Robbed by Wickedestjr and Player A
Day 2 Lynch - Robbed by Wickedestjr and Player B

where Player A and Player B are the players we choose to rob graves. Me and Furcolow will know if those players didn't actually rob graves like they were supposed to, because we'll get equipment.

[VasudeVa]

Wickedest! Quick! Who claimed your rez? I may be onto something.

[VasudeVa]

NVM. It's Feysal and npau.

Hmm.... However, I'm thinking LB's insanity is worth looking at. Is it possible that LB is a rezzer last night? Why would he have an insanity?

Bah. Reading.

[VasudeVa]

Also, Wickedest please comment on MoI/Kunk connections I have brought up. Thx.

[kunkstar7]

Intentions and motives: I read MoI as scum that needs to be lynched for the Town victory. That should be pretty obvious, and this question is both silly AND scummy.

This was not a question, it was a statement of why I was questioning and asking for your case on MoI when I didn't understand it.

Regarding the second point, I find it difficult to believe that you wouldn't have anything to add from MoI's play today, especially since he is responding to you. I more or less dislike the Fatestyle of "LYNCH {{PLAYER}} KTHX" that I mention and players using that lose me.

except that players who are cautious and theory-heavy usually try and bracket their weak gut-reads with some kind of fact-based security blanket, which he doesn't.

Not sure what you mean by fact-based security blanket, so can't really respond to this point.

Do you have any thoughts or opinions on Magna

I'm going to address this sort of in response to VV's case on MoI and how I'm reading MoI:

1)

Furc's attacks on MoI are staged,

2)

MoI is only interested in defending himself & MoI is a poisonous malicious presence in the community.

3)

You didn't even understand the case, you picked apart a questionable quote and are looking for an angle to defend MoI.

1) Doesn't make sense unless reversed. If we reverse it then I totally understand his position on Furcolow that he goes on about in his most recent post and don't fault him for it, if Furcolow had not been essentially confirmed as investigator. Considering the incident at the end of SAII had Furcolow not been essentially confirmed I would be all for a lynch of Furcolow for his play

this

game. While I understand MoI's logic under normal circumstances, he is ignoring the fact that Furcolow, regardless of play this game, is town. There is no ambiguity there, now. As well, if he truly feels that way why not try pushing that or asking for a stalk/kill?

2) Part A is a point I'm conceding, his play has been for the most part on the defense, with a few questions posed towards others. Part B isn't tangible for me, I don't read the invisible malicious intent that VV does.

Lastly, his vote of VV doesn't fit. I don't get the vibe from MoI that he truly thinks VV is actually scum, but rather that VV is a very misguided investigator, and the only reason for abrasion between players is because VV thinks MoI is scum. There is little mention of VV as possible cult with the exception of one (possibly another that I missed) where VV as cult is expressed as only a fourth option. I see the line passing it off as a clear OMGUS vote, but it still doesn't jive.

@Nopointinactingup: Why is so difficult to answer the question of why you chose to rez Wicked?

[Wickedestjr]

Posting from iPod:

1. Sotty7 mentioned the exact same problem I have with MoI's defense: he attacks his attacker. Looks to me like he's exhibiting the same type of defense techniques that he was attacking Furcolow.

2. # graves = # of grave robbers = # of potential murderers stopped, so more graves means more potential murderers stopped... So we should dispatch Fate.

3. I looked at kunkstar7's defense and he's still scum! I'll explain later.

I'll respond to Vas next.

[AurorusVox]

VV, I debated the cause of LB's insanity a while back. Since mod-VI told me that you can only get insanities up to the point of your death, the only insanity causing actions had to occur N0 (stalk, crafting three fetishes) or resolve before the murder effect N1 (stalk, laundering whilst not bloody, crafting three fetishes, being given a fetish of himself).

(Also worth baring in mind is the possibility that if the rules are strict in terms of resolution, a murder side-effect (insanity) may be cancelled out due to someone else's murder effect (death) resolving first, despite the murder attempt still going through.)

[Wickedestjr]

Also, Wickedest please comment on MoI/Kunk connections I have brought up. Thx.

I think you may have a good point about them being connected.

[Furcolow]

MoI, do you feel this is a fair characterization? I mean, it doesn't take much to understand Furc's play, so I'd like to know if you feel like you do understand what his style is?

I address this later on with VV but I’ll say it here.

This is an absolutely correct assessment of my perception. Furc is a VI and I don’t think I obscured my view on Day 1.

When he’s Town he’s not going to be a net benefit in scum-hunting. When he’s scum he’s going to slide by on his VI playstyle which people will defend. In either case he’s an anchor chained solidly to Town’s chances at victory. The longer he lasts in a game this size the more he drags it down to Hell.

Look at his ISO for Days 1 and 2 and honestly ask yourself if you disagreed. A short list of reasons why my opinion hasn’t changed –

1. Didn’t bother to actually think about his N0 action.
2. Constantly changing opinion – Fate is Town, Fate is Cult, Fate is Town.
3. Lack of reliable scum-hunting. His opinions on who is Cult generally revolve around whoever challenges his play or opinions.

I could go on to demonstrate numerous radical changes of opinion on all sorts of matters. And he’s pretty much called half the playerlist scum at one point or another.

Were this a 12 person game I wouldn’t have bothered going after him early. There is little room for error in that environment. In large games Town has significantly more wiggle room. Especially since we know there is only one Cult faction and N1 has given strong evidence that the Murderer route has been discounted as opposed to SAII (1 murder N1 as opposed to 4).

1) The ungodly tunnel on Furc like it was his day job.

I think I’ve clearly indicated above my opinion on Furc. If you want to call what is in effect a Policy push on an absolutely useless player (IMO) scummy that’s your call. Given the end of Clash of Kings I know that you know exactly why I don’t want VI players around at endgame. The fact that you are specifically going out of your way to ignore your direct knowledge gives me pause.

3) RC wagon rolls up at the end of the day and MoI is an eager beaver to jump on that. We get a fancy pants iso of RC in 1171. I don't know, but I always find these post by post isos to be kind of scummy because people seem to rarely ever give the person a fair shake when doing them. I mean, seriously go back and read MoI's PBPA of RC. Essentially 90 percent of RCs posts are called scummy or fluff. I find this quite over the top by any measure. I mean, maybe I'm wrong and RC will flip scum, but I just find this kind of rhetoric excessive and unlikely to come from town. That of course, is sort of ironic, since Magna seems fond of attacking RC, Vas and others for their rhetorical statements. Now before Magna comes in and says 'ZOMG VAS DID IT TO ME TOOOOO,' yes I realize he did. I think he was being over the top as well, but I also feel like you were winding him up with your antagonism from his original points on you. I still find it scummy regardless, but yours on RC is worse because nothing provoked it other than you trying to trump up your vote.

This whole point is carefully fabricated bullshit. Had you read my ISO you would have seen my questions and criticisms of RC’s play throughout the Day BEFORE the RC wagon formed. Since you didn’t here are the ISOs for you (8,17,18 ). Yet somehow you are attempting to portray my suspicion of RC as fabricated out of mid-air. Both incorrect and scumtastic.

I also love that point 2 and 4 (which I’m not bothering to address directly as they say basically ‘VP’s opinion of this is scummy’, which I disagree with) amount to ‘I’m not scum-hunting’ yet when I put together a case on RC it’s scummy. Lovely. Decide which direction you want to push VP.

MoI - do you think Benmage is more likely cult or investigator?

At this point I’m undecided. Asking me yesterday before Night and I would have said most likely Investigator. I can see his personal grudge with Fate overriding any Town sense he had. When he didn’t follow through and kill the rendered useless Fate last night and ‘prove’ his Town cred it shoved me back into the ‘Benmage is Unknown’ category, especially in light of his epic backtrack on his reasoning for stalking in the first place. The fact that he didn’t follow through gives me pause to consider he might be cult playing a very ballys / stupid gambit. He has managed to basically derail the conversation each day with his declarations. The longer this cluster-f with him goes the more I question him as investigator. Fate’s flip will also help shape my opinion. Benmage being Investigator would be more or less solidified if Fate flips Cult.

This is just all kinds of weak sauce. You've played with me and you've played with Zach we are two quite different styles of player so even in a hydra the posting styles are going to be different. I have signed all of my posts bar a couple where I forgot, OJ has signed all her posts it doesn't take a math wiz to realize who made the others. You don't explain why it is odd and seem to be suggesting it was scummy (or else why bother bringing it up?) It just feels like a weak attempt at mud slinging.

Right back at you Sotty. Your entire argument as to why I’m scum is ‘gut’ and filled with no support – weak sauce as you say. I don’t like the direction your arguments have taken because they very much remind me of your Newbie scum game. Your statement above is further indicative. Lots of backhanded insults (re knowing who posted) and accusations – very disproporatiate to the attention I’ve give you. So, yeah, chalk me up for a similar ‘gut’ scum-read on you.

The fact that you don't bother to do anything case wise but latch on with a "I love VP's case" when one is posted strengthens my suspicions.

MoI is my number one suspicion at the moment, every post is so illogical.

Here’s a clue Ben – disagreeing with your play isn’t bad logic. Sorry to burst your bubble but it isn’t. Care to provide quotes of my ‘illogical’ posts as opposed to making unsubstantiated accusations as usual?

I like tnm's last post. When I am at a computer I will explain why I also find kunk likely scum.

Of course you like TNM’s post he agrees with your position

I’m waiting for any sort of scum-hunting and explanation why any of your ‘candidates’ are scum. How about it? You know, actually scum-hunting as opposed to calling those who don’t follow your anti-Town play blindly scum.

No claims here. I want you dead now though, so that I don't have to get your scummy blood in mah clothes.

Actually you want me dead because I hurt your pride. That’s ok. I accept you can’t disconnect your personal pride from logically assessing the game.

VOTE MAGNA. FOR GREATER JUSTICE. (And then we can get rid of Kunkscum right after, ohh yeaahh.)

Ah, another batch of Appealing to Repeition, rhetoric, and an added dash of stupid internet meme. Good times.

That was not the case, I had a full blown case revealing that MoI's INTENTIONS in thread are scummy in nature, and that was me attempting to convince people and my interpretations that his attacks on Furcolow are fail attempts to look like he's scumhunting when he is not(because he's scum etc.).

So you are back to ‘intentions’ again, which you abandoned the first time for ‘He’s scum because he’s not showing scum-tells’ at the end of Day 1. Yawn. When you have something noteworthly let me know.

That quote is, I admit, rhetoric.

You have to admit it. It’s all you do …

Nice try scum. Kunkstar lynch after we are done with MoI, k.

Nice … lining up lynches. Either classic scum play or more example of fail-Town VV traditional play.

MoI has a lot of experience with Furc. He knows that Furc is a derpy player. However he is incessant in his attacks despite knowledge of Furc's play. He didn't even attempt to figure out Furc's alignment and just kept calling him scum for shits and giggles. I found the bullshit in his attacks.

Add that he cares more about his own image than figuring other people out = MoI is SCUM SCUM SCUM.

I do know Furc is a derpy players. Which is why he needs to be eliminated. Allowing VI’s into endgame situations is VERY STUPID Town play in a large game. It allows, I don’t know, Mafia in a horrible PoE situation to go on to win when they have no rights to do so (see Clash of Kings as a perfect example).

Furc is not going to win this game for Town. The Cult are not going to kill him because he’s derpy. Call it a Policy lynch if you wish. This early in the game it’s better to eliminate the landmines when Town has breathing room than later when it cost Town the game.

And look, yet more rhetoric.

PS. Why are there so many votes on Fate's dispatch? Aren't we minimizing the body count to prevent Cult getting dust? I thought this has already been discussed.

Slight FOS on everyone at the wagon. THERE BE SCUMZ THERE TOO. (Specifically MoI but you get the drill.)

Look, I’m so Town it hurts. I’m very worried about Corpse Dust because it would make 1 kill by the Cult more successful despite the fact that we have SO MANY PLAYERS all Town can’t possibly be adequately protected anyway.

Here VV is churning desperately for Town cred. Scumtastic.

VOTE: VV

Because I can.

I read this entire post.
First, you refer to me as a VI. That's pretty popular to do. Good job, bro.
Next, you say that "Furc attacks players who are attacking him", basically.
Couple that with you claiming players need to scumhunt...
and you are a hypocrite.
Your entire post is mudslinging on two players, and you defending yourself. There is no actual scumhunting. Furthermore, YOU are the one attacking people who attack you. I don't give a fuck about you whatsoever, but I do feel like you are cult.

also, you saying I'll be a detriment in the endgame... go read this game of me as town:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... start=1375

sup?

[Furcolow]

Leaning more to Magna-Town ATM. We'll see. Also

Dispatch: Fate

why?

[Furcolow]

El G: what is the scummiest thing that MoI has done and why?
MoI: what's your position on letting Benmage kill tonight and why?

AV why are you sucking up to MoI here?

[Furcolow]

dispatch fate

can I rob grave fate (on phone, looking to contribute tonight when I get home SC2 has been crack + crazy weekend )

im for it
im not certain im going to be robbing
i dont feel like i need confirmation at all

[Furcolow]

i hate kunkstar's #2128 so much it's not even worth quoting
1) terrible excuses for voting
2) admission he can't scumhunt
3) attacking MoI's attackers

i would vote kunkstar

[Furcolow]

But he can help the Town because he is the closest thing we have to a confirmed investigator.

Disagree. i believe that honour goes to Wickedest.

NO NO NO

go read stars aligned II and see how resuscitation can

RUIN

town
this is

WIFOM

[Furcolow]

his attack of furcolow's confirmness is not something cult will do, and so hard. i think they would have given up that argument long before MoI did. they won't want that much attraction that early on an unlikely mislynch.

I would argue that furc is a perfect subject to tunnel on for cult. His play style is often the subject of much debate and many would excuse MoI for his push because it is

furc

. Also, if the wagon picked up steam and he was lynched, flipping town, MoI can just flip back to his first post touting it was for the good of the town.

However, the main reason I find his heavy handed push on furc so scummy is because it enables to allow MoI to look like he is scum hunting when he isn't.

= = = = = =

I think I’ve clearly indicated above my opinion on Furc. If you want to call what is in effect a Policy push on an absolutely useless player (IMO) scummy that’s your call. Given the end of Clash of Kings I know that you know exactly why I don’t want VI players around at endgame. The fact that you are specifically going out of your way to ignore your direct knowledge gives me pause.

All this ignores the glaring fact that if you are so apposed to VI's you could stalk/vig furc and be done with it. That way you keep your furchate, that had no bearing on the game, out of the thread and done something useful. Like, oh I don't know.... Scumhunting perhaps?

Right back at you Sotty. Your entire argument as to why I’m scum is ‘gut’ and filled with no support – weak sauce as you say. I don’t like the direction your arguments have taken because they very much remind me of your Newbie scum game. Your statement above is further indicative. Lots of backhanded insults (re knowing who posted) and accusations – very disproporatiate to the attention I’ve give you. So, yeah, chalk me up for a similar ‘gut’ scum-read on you.

You might wanna recheck that meta. I'm more logical scum than gut scum, but unless you can make a stronger connection based off more recent meta... AKA a game that isn't nine months old I might be willing to listen.

Also why does it matter that you haven't given me very much attention? We, as in our whole hydra, find you scummy, that doesn't have anything to do with how much you focus on us.

The comment about knowing who posted wasn't backhanded. It was clear who has been posting and you made a mountain out of a mole hill for a situation that wasn't even scummy in the first place.

I have noticed that you don't actively defend posts, you just attack your attackers with the hope of smearing them in your dirt making people forget the actual points against you. I don't like it.

= = = = = =

Furpants:

Suspecting the two rezzers is one thing, but do you think they are both likely cult? I don't have an issue with the rest of your suspects, just the lingering annoyance that I had to call you out for you to start scum hunting again.

~Sotty

QFT

[Furcolow]

Posting from iPod:

1. Sotty7 mentioned the exact same problem I have with MoI's defense: he attacks his attacker. Looks to me like he's exhibiting the same type of defense techniques that he was attacking Furcolow.

2. # graves = # of grave robbers = # of potential murderers stopped, so more graves means more potential murderers stopped... So we should dispatch Fate.

3. I looked at kunkstar7's defense and he's still scum! I'll explain later.

I'll respond to Vas next.

QFT

[Furcolow]

Also, Wickedest please comment on MoI/Kunk connections I have brought up. Thx.

I think you may have a good point about them being connected.

QFT

[AurorusVox]

AV why are you sucking up to MoI here?

How is it sucking up?