EBWOPreview: Interesting. Damn, I wish I hadn't put off asking Lrdwhyt to substantiate his one-liner reads in his wishy-washy catch-up posts.
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Poor Percy can't catch a break. If Baby Spice flips town, that will make him look like scum. If Baby Spice flips scum, that will make him look like scum. That said, considering he's such a polarizing force, and several people are waiting on him for the lynch, it'd be nice if he got in here and answered all the outstanding questions to him.
Lots I need to catch up with. Sotty first.
WARNING: INCOMING WALL POST.
I'll be completely honest; being linked to a leading wagon
before
a flip makes me feel self-conscious of my reads, particularly since I've steadfastly defended scum more than a few times. Even as I'm writing this, I'll admit there's a voice in my head going, "Oh, shit, if she flips scum, you'll look even
more
like her buddy." Can't people...um, just magically see into my pure innocent heart and let me post whatever wishy-washy contradictory thoughts come into my mind without lynching me for it?
Sotty7 wrote:Mina, after reading post 812 I was ready to fall in mafia love with you. But you ruin a good thing with post 813. Broke my heart...
Mina Post 813 wrote:@Sotty: My reason was that Baby Spice put the third vote on LrdWhyt I
suppose
I could concoct a conspiracy theory in which she was bussing LrdWhyt and preemptively setting one of us up as his buddy, but it just looked really weird and convoluted for a scum gambit. I wouldn't die of shock if she flipped guilty, and I kind of see Locke's point that setting contingencies based on the lynch is scummy (it's so much fun as scum to link your partner to every group suspect in existence). But meh. I guess I'm not really feeling it. She doesn't seem to be opportunistically tailoring her opinions to suit the masses.
Okay, fair enough if you're “not feeling” Baby as scum but reading this little block of text I see no reason for you to be fighting the Baby wagon like you are. You are actively derailing a wagon on a player who you admittedly have at least a slight scum read on. Why exactly?
I was really surprised that you accused me of fighting so hard to derail Baby Spice's lynch throughout this post, since I don't remember defending her so much as whining that I'm not ready for Phase One to end and yelling at the people who are playing stupid games with their votes...but looking back, I do use lots of exclamation marks and capital letters.
Hmm. Maybe some of my vehemence is a visceral backlash to the formation of the wagon and its diversion from Lrdwhyt.
I got all excited on Sunday when I saw Benmage's attack on Lrdwhyt. "Awesome," I thought. "Now I remember how Benmage made me fall in love with him in
ACoK
even after driving me crazy over the first couple of days. My Elmo vote caught a lamb to the slaughter." I was also starting to feel better about Baby Spice, because she didn't seem clever enough to fake a "trap" as scum.
I was getting ready to pressure Lrdwhyt a bit, since I'd never really addressed his most recent posts or explained what bugged me about his wishy-washy reads. Also, this is another reason I forgot to mention in 813, but I was in the middle of writing a great, dramatically-charged attack on Furcolow. I mean...he sheeped my Elmo vote,
and then voted Lrdwhyt
for sheeping it as well. I had plans, dammit,
plans
! And then out of nowhere, several people went, "I think Baby Spice is town, but I'm voting for her anyway." "Yeah, I agree. *votes*" "I'm putting Baby Spice at L-1 just because it what's the cool kids are doing!" "Hey, everyone, day's over, hammer THIS SECOND!"
To be honest, when everyone gangs up on an easy target without little thought, my white knight instincts kick in. So maybe I overreacted a bit.
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I understand the Benmage thing.
I understand the furc thing.
I understand the IAI thing.
But in a mountainous game like this, where we get two lynches a day, you shouldn't be fighting a lynch as hard as you are unless you are convinced that player is town. Clearly you aren't convinced about Baby.
Okay, most of your points in this post are fair, but I
really
hated this. The implication that it's townish to just go with the flow and not voice your own opinions bothers me.
Apparently, instead of voting for Lrdwhyt, who I suspect more than Baby Spice, the correct town play is to say, "Hey, Baby Spice has a non-zero chance of flipping scum, so hammer away!" Do you just find this scummy because you think Baby Spice is scum (although to be honest, I think if you're looking for BS's partner, it's more likely to be someone like Furcolow, who barely mentions her but then puts her to L-1
after
someone else promises to do it)? Or would you find it scummy for anyone who isn't convinced that X is town to ask, "Hey, why are you voting for X, instead of Y who both you and I suspect more?
Why don't you apply this to any player who doesn't vote for a leading bandwagon they don't have a town read on? Hey, Locke suspects Baby Spice, but he's voting Lrdwhyt! Why isn't he sitting back and letting Baby Spice be lynched?
What you're saying is town is MORE LIKELY than scum to make a lazy bandwagon vote--
just
because the set-up is more forgiving than usual on town. That's just giving people a cover to make compromise votes on players they don't suspect.
Yes, I'll agree that town can afford to play more loosely than in a one-lynch-per-day game. But that doesn't make it a scum mindset to be cautious. Somehow, it seems too easy for the scum to all be the weak players (so I have the sneaking suspicion that two out of three of BS, LW, and Furc aren't guilty).
I prefer playing on my own terms. I will vote for Baby Spice when I'm confident that she's more likely to be scum than another potential lynch, or when the alternative is a lynch I disagree with (like I did on Day One). But I didn't feel ready for Phase One to end at the point where people were calling for a hammer.
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It's like you want it all ways possible.
Baby looks scummy
People on her wagon are scummy
People off her wagon are scummy.
Seriously? Pick a side. Unless you have a legit case as to why we
shouldn't
lynch Baby today then you shouldn't be trying to derail this as hard as you are.
If I wasn't leaning town on you from before, I'd OMGUS you and accuse you of misrepping me. Please show just where:
1) I'm trying to derail this very hard. (Meh...I
did
ask Benmage to unvote.)
2) I said that people off her wagon are scummy because they're off their wagon.
I think saying that I'm trying to have it all ways just because I'm ambivalent on Baby Spice is really unfair.
Maybe for self-preservation's sake, I should pretend to be either super-suspicious of Baby Spice or utterly convinced she's town. But I'm sorry. I'm just kind of lukewarm on her. You say that your experience has taught you how to sense when things feel off. Well, my experience has taught me that I should not trust my own ability to read players like Baby Spice, because I consistently misread them (either as town when they're scum or scum when they're town). Occasionally she sounds sincere, but in all honesty, her posts just make my head hurt. Every time I think I've found a nugget of towniness there, she says something that makes me go, "But...but...didn't you just say that you thought...how does that make any...." There are players I have something concrete against, so the "side" I'm picking is to vote for them over her.
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<snip>
2] I don't have any issue with furc's vote. It's how he is.
Benmage and IAI's votes do look suspect on face value. Both are voting for someone they believe is town out of spite. However, I still have a strong town read on IAI because I have seen scumIAI and this is totally different. He does earn a couple of scum points for the reasoning to his vote but not enough for me to abandon this read.
Benmage is town right now mostly because of Dry-Fit. How likely do you think that was a bus?
I resevere the right to change my mind, but this is where my head is at right now. Their votes a terribad, but Baby is probscum. I'll take it anyway I can get it.
My thoughts on Furcolow are below.
As for the other two...maybe I wasn't clear enough. Benmage and I Am Innocent are two of my strongest town reads. I'm more sure of them than I am of jason, actually.
That doesn't change the fact that their votes raise my blood pressure, and make me want to break things, because they--well, mostly just Benmage, after IAI's clarification--are voting for someone they think is
more likely to be a mislynch.
Just because he's so tunnel-visioned that he's deliberately going out of their way to screw the town over. It's terrible, terrible strategy. They should be trying to lynch Percy's buddy, not his top suspect. To make matters worse, Benmage has
he has a townread
on Baby Spice, for reasons outside of Percy's attack.
3] I thought you had experience playing with furc before? I wouldn't exactly be against a policy lynch of furc, but lets not pretend that it is scum hunting.
I need to tread carefully here. My only experience with Furcolow is in an ongoing game.
I could have sworn someone mentioned that scum-Furcolow is more low-key, and kisses up to people unless they attack him (in which case, he OMGUSes). I can't remember if it was in this thread or [REDACTED]. I've been meaning to read
The Brave and the Beautiful
to get scum meta on Furcolow. But I was hoping someone here could enlighten me.
But what bugs me about him is that he's very
calm
today. (Yes, I've called Furcolow calm.) On Day One, he looked more like Spastic Hyperactive Furcolow. (And maybe I should reread, because people were accusing Furcolow of being Dry-Fit's buddy
before
a flip.) But now, he isn't blowing up at random people, getting tunnel-visioned, and concocting ridiculous conspiracy theories. He isn't aggressively pursuing anyone. He just writes long reasonable (for Furcolow) posts kissing up to people, and goes with the flow. He's acting
very
conscious of how his posts appear.
See, it's not that his opinions are contradictory, but that these contradictions don't look emotion-driven. It's just, "Okay, now I've changed my mind." Like, he voted for me when I called him scum. But then out of the blue, he turns around and says, "Yeah, I liked Mina's Elmo case at first, but it made Mina 'incorrectly' suspect me so I'm backing off." You know what I think he'd be doing if he were town? Spamming the thread with "LYNCH MINA LYNCH MINA YOU'RE A LYING LIAR WHO LIES AND CALLED ME SCUM BECAUSE I VOTED FOR ELMO EVEN THOUGH YOU VOTED FOR ELMO WHICH WAS ALL A PLAN BECAUSE YOU AND ELMO ARE SCUMBUDDIES LOOK YOUR POSTS BOTH CONTAIN THE LETTER Q IN THEM SO YOU MUST BE PARTNERS I REFUSE TO LISTEN TO YOUR DEFENCE LYNCH MINA LYNCH MINA LYNCH MINA." For someone who's so hotheaded, he just seems very laid-back and calculated.
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Mina Post 813 wrote:Sotty, question. Why do you find Baby Spice's cognitive dissonance scummy and not Furcolow's? Also, do you think that Furcolow's play is similar to his town or scum meta?
(1) First off I never classed anything Babyspice did as
“cognitive dissonance”
. (2) I don't like the fact you have, in essence, paired my case against Baby up with furc now. Clearly Baby and furc are not guilty of the same exact things, otherwise I would be pushing on furc too.
1) I remember someone using the words "cognitive dissonance" in this thread to refer to Baby Spice. Sorry, I thought it was you.
2) Um...that's
exactly
my point.
Saying Baby and Furc are not guilty of the same things because
you aren't attacking both of them
is circular reasoning. I asked you because I wanted to know what were your reasons for thinking Baby Spice's poor logic and contradictions are scummier and less out of character than Furcolow's poor logic and contradictions. I want to know
why
you aren't pushing on Furcolow as well? Why
don't
you think they're guilty of the exact same things? This is both for my own enlightenment (is there something about both of them I'm missing?) and to get a better read on you.
<snip> All furc has done is be himself. In that he changes his mind in a blink of an eye. Make a case on him and maybe I'll listen. Right now I don't have an issue with him. Would I want him in LYLO... Probably not. Although I do hear he has a good lylo record (unless I remembering someone else)
Will do later. I've been meaning to at least point out his shifts in opinion and then try to squeeze an explanation out of him.
Mina Post 813 wrote:Your turn. What's the rush for someone to hammer right away, Sotty? Why don't you want more discussion?
I have already said why.
But I have no issue waiting for everyone to weigh in. After that, I will be calling for the lynch again.
All you say there is that the downside to hammering isn't as high as usual. Well...what's the
upside
? Why did you think hammering quickly was better than waiting? You were putting pressure on people to hammer? What was the trade-off of instant hammer vs. more discussion when you called for it?
But glad you're in agreement about waiting for more people to weigh in.
