Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[magnus_orion]

I wasn't aware of the site meta against people who go V/LA. Please do go on.

[Fate]

Oh so VV who you think may be town, and more town than Rhinox, should just "defend himself" instead of YOU defending him for him.

Maybe he's an incompetent townie who NEEDS help defending himself?
Why do you have no interest in deconstructing my case if its soo fluffy and full of BS?

Translation: You are willing to watch VV burn himself to the ground, and unwilling to push a case on Rhinox because you have no interest in defending VV when he's killing myself.


I'm so tempted.

So tempted to switch this wagon.

And guess what? Then your scummy ass would get a LONGER D1.

Wouldn't that be fucking ironic.

[magnus_orion]

Yes, I'm willing to watch VV burn because I don't have evidence suggesting he is that incompetent townie. He may very well be scum. I just think Rhinox has more of a chance of being scum.
Also, more wagons are quite useful, please, feel free. I would be quite pleased, because, as you pointed out, the day would be longer.

once again for sake of completeness, because I'm being misunderstood, I simply wish rhinox to post to check my suspicions (hence verify or nullify). I may find rhinox's towniness outweighs his prior scuminess.

[AlmasterGM]

If you're not holding him accountable for not posting, and there aren't any arguments against him because he hasn't posted, then HOW IS HE POSSIBLY SCUMMIER THAN VV. Especially when you haven't even DECONSTRUCTED THE VV CASE, so you don't even have anything to be comparative with.

Unvote. Vote: magnus

[AlmasterGM]

omg your snipe just concluded this whole thing with the biggest fucking fence-sit I have ever seen on this site ever

[AlmasterGM]

Fate join me on this brand new fashionably IRONIC wagon.

[magnus_orion]

9_9 Just because I haven't demonstrated what's wrong with it doesn't mean it doesn't have problems nor that I can't be aware of those problems and act accordingly. Your arguments are illogical

Preview edit: My current stance is that I would prefer rhinox lynched because he's committed more scumtells per content. Hence the vote.
I have a stance. But I can do one better and verify that stance with additional information. Which I find, on the whole, better than not. Explain to me how my current stance is fence-sitting.

[magnus_orion]

or, are you certain of VV's alignment. If, hypothetically, VV posts right now, and were to claim innocent child, and faraday were to confirm it, I assume that this additional information may affect your read on him? I feel I must reiterate Hypothetically?

[Fate]

But VV's attempts at scumhunting are SO LAUGHABLE.

The counter wagon is damn appealing.

Thoughts, I must have them.

I really don't want VV being left alive.

[Fate]

or, are you certain of VV's alignment. If, hypothetically, VV posts right now, and were to claim innocent child, and faraday were to confirm it, I assume that this additional information may affect your read on him? I feel I must reiterate Hypothetically?

What the fuck is the point of this post?

[magnus_orion]

to explain that additional information can be a valuable asset is re-evaluating one's reads. Via example.

[Fate]

9_9 Just because I haven't demonstrated what's wrong with it doesn't mean it doesn't have problems nor that I can't be aware of those problems and act accordingly. Your arguments are illogical

Preview edit: My current stance is that I would prefer rhinox lynched because he's committed more scumtells per content. Hence the vote.
I have a stance. But I can do one better and verify that stance with additional information. Which I find, on the whole, better than not. Explain to me how my current stance is fence-sitting.

It is FENCE sitting because you've said in basically these words:

"Rhinox is scummier than VV atm, but if Rhinox posts maybe he will be townier than VV or scummier, I cannot say."
"VV is scummy and I want his mislynch to go through, as I at first "did not want to defend him through the wiggle room in the case against him" but NOW its "I have no evidence that VV is just an incompetent townie.""


Must...

RESIST>


MUST


RESRAWRKJAIJFIWAJFWA{

[Fate]

to explain that additional information can be a valuable asset is re-evaluating one's reads. Via example.

Well its a fucking stupid analogy. If your POINT was "if VV were to come in, start posting gold and not trash, would that not affect your read on him? That is my stance on Rhinox" THEN FUCKING SAY THAT>

GAWD.


AGM BACK ON THE VV WAGON. I WANT HIM DAED DEAD LETS NOT GET SIDE TRACKED.

[magnus_orion]

to explain that additional information can be a valuable asset is re-evaluating one's reads. Via example.

Well its a fucking stupid analogy. If your POINT was "if VV were to come in, start posting gold and not trash, would that not affect your read on him? That is my stance on Rhinox" THEN FUCKING SAY THAT>

GAWD.


AGM BACK ON THE VV WAGON. I WANT HIM DAED DEAD LETS NOT GET SIDE TRACKED.

sorry.

9_9 Just because I haven't demonstrated what's wrong with it doesn't mean it doesn't have problems nor that I can't be aware of those problems and act accordingly. Your arguments are illogical

Preview edit: My current stance is that I would prefer rhinox lynched because he's committed more scumtells per content. Hence the vote.
I have a stance. But I can do one better and verify that stance with additional information. Which I find, on the whole, better than not. Explain to me how my current stance is fence-sitting.

It is FENCE sitting because you've said in basically these words:

"Rhinox is scummier than VV atm, but if Rhinox posts maybe he will be townier than VV or scummier, I cannot say."
"VV is scummy and I want his mislynch to go through, as I at first "did not want to defend him through the wiggle room in the case against him" but NOW its "I have no evidence that VV is just an incompetent townie.""


Must...

RESIST>


MUST


RESRAWRKJAIJFIWAJFWA{

I never said its a mislynch.
I don't know VV's alignment. All I know is some of the case against VV doesn't fully wash. Doesn't mean the case can't still be coincidentally right. False reasoning can draw an accurate conclusion.
Plus some of the points are pretty compelling.
I just find the case against rhinox MORE compelling.

[Fate]

OK then here's the most important question:

Why aren't you VOTING VV?

[SocioPath]

my only option to push a rhinox wagon would be to defend VV, hence the dilemma

Nice false dilemma.
A more accurate and appealing thing there though would be: that the only logical option would be to construct a better case on Rhino, and hope people see the light.
Meaning make a BETTER case on those that are more likely scum.

No one ever has to defend anyone, just attack others and make that better than what is out there.
Hell, I rarely even defend MYSELF, and I somehow manage, even with the wind in my face.

But no, its not like that is it.
And your playstyle this game is a complete assbackwards of what I've ever seen before coming from you.
Of course, I've never seen a game where you were mafia with scum buddies either.


I'd throw my vote on mags at this point.
This posting without saying anything is ridiculous coming from him.
He is way more competent than this.

[magnus_orion]

OK then here's the most important question:

Why aren't you VOTING VV?

I just find the case against rhinox MORE compelling.

Geez, if you really want me to say something so bad, I'll head down the playerlist:
UK has been pretty meh this game, but meh, so have I.
fate is probably town
Vi I think is town.
VV has been a centerpiece for a while now, scummy.
jahudo I have no opinion
socio I just don't believe in reading him anymore
vezok I'm rather unhappy with. ScummySpyreX I generally find agreeable, townish
alamaster the vote against me was fairly pro-active. If VV is town, write down alamaster as very likely town.
elli isn't posting a lot, and I don't have a good reference like last time, so I don't really have an opinion here yet. Give it, like, 10 or more pages
Magnus is clearly town.
GG has said a lot of stuff that just rubbed me funny even if I agree with them. I don't know, something just feels off here. Scummy with a "I could be looking too far into this, take a wait and see approach"
Rhinox is my number 1 suspect, and someone I'd like to see a lot more of. Scum
Papa Zito... haven't really been paying much attention to him. On reflection, hasn't moved vote from vi, hasn't taken clear stance. Scummy.

[vezokpiraka]

Magnus?

That is a horrific list of reads. You fence sit on everyone except the one that the majority agreed are scummy.

[Faraday]

Vote count 1.8

Vi (1) -

Papa Zito

VasudeVa (6)

Sociopath, Fate, Vezokipiraka, UncertainKitten, Ellibereth, SpyreX

Fate (1)

Vi

Rhinox (2

GammaGooey, Magnus_orion

Vezokpiraka (2)

Jahudo, Rhinox

AlmasterGM (1)

VasudeVa

magnus_orion (1) AlmasterGM

Not voting: (0)

No one

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline is December 7th at 1pm GMT
Any mistakes in the VC point 'em out and all that.

[magnus_orion]

Magnus?

That is a horrific list of reads. You fence sit on everyone except the one that the majority agreed are scummy.

and people ask why I haven't been saying anything when

Everything I want to say is being said.

But okay, indulge me, what are your reads vezok?

[Vi]

m_o has been on the fringe of the VasudeVa argument pretty much as far back as I cared to read (Page 5) and I'm not apologetic about watching him get grilled. I was actually kind of sympathetic to him until I read these:
*His references to "the case on Rhinox" are much more vague than they should be considering:
**a case has already been made multiple times against him (contrary to what PikachuGM is saying)
**and it's not based on lurking or V/LA or any of that (contrary to what PikachuGM is kind of saying with his "LAL IS HUGE SITE META")
*m_o comes out and says he has no

evidence

that VV is a psycho Townie. There's a huge difference between having no

evidence

and having no

reasonable certainty

- if there were no evidence, this push away from VV shouldn't be happening in the first place.
*that giant extremely passive fence-sit on Rhinox (I have an EXTREMELY COMPELLING case on Rhinox - and depending on how he posts when he comes back I can ignore it entirely or say I was there all along)

As a general rule ITT, if anyone is being quoted for being awesome it's usually me.

SpyreX's clarification is made of huh and what BUT that's best saved for later.

Hey you, Pikachu. When I said 48 hours to hammer, I meant

hammer

. What happened to VV, or what made m_o a relatively better choice?

[Fate]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

AAAAAA

AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH

VI THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD FUCKIN HAMMER WHEN ASKED. WHAT SORT OF RAINBOWS AND GUMDROPS DID YOU EXCEPT IN 48 FUCKIN HOURS?

NOW WHAT HAS BEEN SEEN CANNOT BE UNSEEN.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MAGNUS

IVE HAD THIS DEEP GUT FEELING BEFORE THAT MAYBE WERE NOT ON THE RIGHT TRACK BUT I DIDNT ACT ON IT THEN I GOT KILLED N1 AND CRIED FROM THE SHADOWS>

BUT NOT TODAY.
TODAY I WILL ACT.

AND I STILL WANT VV DEAD IN THIS CYCLE YOU HEAR ME? BECAUSE SCUM OR TOWN HES A FUCKIN LIABILITY THE SIZE OF TEXAS.

BUT HIS CASES, WHILE SHIT, ARE CASES.

M_O HAS BEEN SITITNG IN NO MANS LAND, HAS NO CASES AT ALL, HAS A RHINOX CASE APPARENTLY SOMEWHERE EVEN THOUGH

HE DOESN"T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS

(REFERENCE: post where M_o says "the case on rhinox is compelling cept the part about the smileys or something lolololol) AND HE DIDN'T EVEN MAKE IT.

SO WHILE HIS VOTE IS SITTING OFF THE WAGON UNDER THE REASONING: "Well I think Rhinox has more of a chance of flipping scum so wheeeeeeee my vote is here" WHILE HE HAS NO CASE OF HIS OWN. AKA SHEEP.

AND IF HE WERE A TOWN SHEEP HED BE ON THE MAIN FUCKIN WAGON LETTIN IT COMPLETE.

BUT HES A SCUM SHEEP AND IS WORRIED ABOUT VC ANALYSIS.

AND HES GONNA DIE.

AND VVS GONNA LIVE

AND IM GONNA CRY.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: MAGNUS

[magnus_orion]

dude it was like 2 in the morning when I was talking to you, plus I don't memorize my cases or reasoning against players, I just keep a running tally in my head.
So yes, I don't remember the case against rhinox without looking back.
Yes, I usually can only remember when things bother me and can't remember why.
Yes, I recall that what did bother me was mentioned by other people already.
Yes, at 2 in the morning I don't have the motivation to go back and shift through everything.
Does this make me scum? No.

AND IF HE WERE A TOWN SHEEP HED BE ON THE MAIN FUCKIN WAGON LETTIN IT COMPLETE.

This is just dumb.

Geez, at least Vi made the case look decent.

[Fate]

OK THEN AT LEAST YOU ADMIT THE CASE ON YOU IS DECENT IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

GLAD TO SEE YOURE WILLING TO ROLL OVER AND DIE FOR YOUR BELIEFS SCUMBAG.

IT IS NOT DUMB, YOU CLEARLY HAVE NO CONCEPT OF PRO TOWN PLAY WHEN YOUR READS ARE SHIT AND YOU HAVE NOTHING ORIGINAL TO SAY: SHEEP THE BEST WAGON THATS MOST VIABLE THAT YOU AGREE WITH.

[magnus_orion]

to reword fate's case for brevity, I believe it could be accurately stated as:
If magnus chooses to agree with some points made by other people, he must choose to agree with all points made by other people, or must present points unique to himself. He may not choose that he agrees with some points and not others. This is scummy. For... some reason.

It should be obvious the fallacy involved here.

Since my knowledge or lack thereof of a case involving rhinox seems to be a hot topic I will go over the points against rhinox.

unvote, vote VuVu

for teh counterwagonz

Vi is way too much fun to lynch on day 1.

Here Rhinox randomly decides to vote VV for the sake of avoiding a Vi wagon during the RVS despite having already made a random vote against SpyreX. This is highly disconcerting, as Rhinox should have no concern involving Vi's wagon.

Aww Rhinox, you need to stop being scum in my games.~

Also, how's the no-longer-a-puppy?

Probably pissed at me. Left her behind while I traveled away for thanksgiving.

Rhinox for VV's scumbuddy 2010.

Cuz we all know how that worked out LAST TIME

I like what Jahudo said.

unvote, vote vezok

It becomes increasingly obvious that Rhinox didn't have any additional reasoning behind his second RVS vote, since he drops it the second there is a different case on the table.

Fate proceeds to make a big deal about the "LAST TIME" comment, for some reason.

<3 Fate.

you're the one who called it fake meta. I seem to remember a few people in /in 11 calling me scum with VV and DGB. If you think i would seriously use that as evidence to say I am not scum especially not with VV in this game rather than just joking around, then well maybe you don't know me as well as you think you do.

would it make it any better if I went back to voting VV? I don't really feel like being the word of reason preventing his lynch all game again

P. edit shit can't do that now it would be OMGUS

While he responds to Fate's comments, he leaves open the other situations going on around him, in particular his opinion on VV is left ambiguous. While his comment could be implied as an advocation of defense of VV, it could also merely be a joke, and the fact that he leaves this ambiguous is highly unsatisfying.

The reason I find this more compelling than the case against VV is that the rest of Rhinox's posting is mere fluff. And very light fluff at that. VV actually made an effort to make points and do things, etc. His posting takes up a great deal more space than that of Rhinox, hence he has a greater amount of content, so more to pick at. The end result, as I stated before, is that if we divide scumminess by content for these two individuals, we find Rhinox has a much higher ratio, hence why I find the case against him more compelling.

HOWEVER. I also recognize that Rhinox is V/LA and that there is a severe lack of information concerning him available. As such, in my opinion, the best course of action is to try and get additional information in order to weigh this more adequately against the wealth of VV information already available.

preview edit: Something that looks decent need not also be decent in terms of effectiveness. So no, I did not admit that the case against me was decent in that it was accurate. Merely that it was worded convincingly and made me believe that the positions being brought against me could actually be held by rational individuals.