The Return to Liten (Game Over)

[Furry]

Here’s the first thing that really makes me, in re-read, question Furry.

1. Potential slip when indicating that scum have a RB ability (which until Hacker flipped wasn’t seriously considered with a scum Doc).
2. Potential direction of a Cop to ThAd. Some scum motivation to make sure a potential SK is investigated early (and thus likely outing the Cop) and thus eliminate a Mafia rival. Especially given that later discussion that revolved around the then unknown Scum Doc indicating ThAd was Vig.

First, have you ever seen many large games with no scum RB? Its such a staple that its a safe assumption to make they have one in any game you play on this site. Also point 2 is not what I said, I said that if a RB is on the vig/SK, then the cop is free to investigate unblocked every night. I did not say "hey cop look at Thad" like you are trying to make it out to be right here. Also the whole "cops get innocent of SKs" arguement makes this point fall apart a second time.

The risk/benifit of keeping SO around mostly lie in getting a non-cop to confirm him

NO COP SHOULD TARGET SO EVER, trackers go crazy

Furry

– can you explain your reasoning here? I don’t see the logic in actively turning potential cops loose on a possible SK (who may not even scan as not-Town) but to keep them away from a highly suspected Mafia member. I have some ideas but I'd really like to know what you were thinking.

So... me saying that no cop should target SO means that I wanted cops to target SO? Lets say you are scum who is going to fakeclaim. First rule of fakeclaiming is to claim something that you can actively back up. What role can actively backup a BP claim usually? Answer is the same role that is investigative immune, godfather role! At this point I had SO down to either scum GF or town BP. In either case, he would show as town to a cop, so I wanted him tracked or something to that method, since if he showed up doing something (which he would have) he is confirmed scum.

The net effect of 54 was to say HH was scum, say that if HH was scum APC needed to die, and then attack APC for the rest of the post before voting him. That’s a variation of the exact same play he attacked Data’s logic on regarding myself and Bowser. Inconsistencies / Cognitive Dissonance I find a reliable Scum tell.

Actually I said "HH and APC are scum together" and showed interest in a lynch of either for most of the game. It was not a "if player X is scum, then Y is scum too" situation. They were both scum reads independent of eachother, but their play backed up them being scum together was well, a scum flip from one helped back the case of other being scum.

The last second switch to Chess as scum (sheeping Camn) at the end of the day that Hacker was lynched also is suspect.

If you really want to bring WIFOM into it, I would have continued my power bus of HH as scum, taken the town cred and probably killed camn, having Thad take down chess/thor for me to bring game back to even numbers, lynched one of the remaining, then gotted rid of Thad, taken the no lynch and tailored the endgame to my liking looking more town then I would if I tried to abandon ship on the HH wagon. I like bussing when it looks like a good move, thats clear by looking at 90% of my scum games. Basically what you did if you are scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First, have you ever seen many large games with no scum RB? Its such a staple that its a safe assumption to make they have one in any game you play on this site.

I agree a Role-blocker for Scum in a Large game is fairly common. That said you can’t expect me not to look at things that might be small slips when we are in LYLO.

Also point 2 is not what I said, I said that if a RB is on the vig/SK, then the cop is free to investigate unblocked every night. I did not say "hey cop look at Thad" like you are trying to make it out to be right here. Also the whole "cops get innocent of SKs" arguement makes this point fall apart a second time.

That was not what I drew from your original post when doing my re-read. But having seen what you said here I looked again and can agree that’s a reasonable line of thought.

So... me saying that no cop should target SO means that I wanted cops to target SO?

I asked why turning loose a Cop on potential SK (Serial Killer) made sense but not turning one lose on Square, a suspected Mafia member. Especially if, as you yourself state, Serial Killers often share investigation immunity with Godfathers.

First rule of fakeclaiming is to claim something that you can actively back up. What role can actively backup a BP claim usually? Answer is the same role that is investigative immune, godfather role! At this point I had SO down to either scum GF or town BP. In either case, he would show as town to a cop, so I wanted him tracked or something to that method, since if he showed up doing something (which he would have) he is confirmed scum.

That’s what I suspected you were suggesting but wanted to clearly see it from you directly. Thank you.

Actually I said "HH and APC are scum together" and showed interest in a lynch of either for most of the game. It was not a "if player X is scum, then Y is scum too" situation. They were both scum reads independent of eachother, but their play backed up them being scum together was well, a scum flip from one helped back the case of other being scum.

Then explain why you started the post by voting Hacker, stated your reads showing each should die if the other was scum, and then proceeded to analyse APC in depth and finally vote for him. That's what I don't understand. Why vote for HH at all at the top of the post only to switch, in the same post, to APC?

[AlmasterGM]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Hmmm.

Hm.

I'm going to give this another 2-3 days and then vote MoI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I think I’ve seen enough. I’ve dug through Furry’s ISO in an effort to hunt for anything that could sway me from AGM as the final scum. His responses make enough sense to this point that I don’t see me voting him.

AGM I thought was scum coming into today and his play hasn’t dissuaded me.

1. He says he will answer any questions we have. When I ask him some he ignores them.
2. Says he’s going to ‘re-read’ but then that disappears into the ether. He’s more interested if my re-read results than his own.
3. Post 1402 shows hesitancy to actually vote (I’ll give it another 2-3 days) me. It’s not like that time is necessary to for him to review since he’s been very active on site. So I’m going to guess that he doesn’t want to close the door on the possibility that he could vote Furry to win the game if my last review gave a hint that I could go that way.

All hallmarks of Scum who is in a bad spot and doesn’t want to bother to expend the effort on what may be a fruitless. Which is understandable.

VOTE: AGM

The final decision rests with you Furry as I'm sure AGM's next post will be a cross-vote. I’ll answer any question you may have. If you are the final scum congratulations you have done a good enough job to get the win. I don’t think you are but your next post should tell the tale.

[AlmasterGM]

Ahahahahahahaha.

That's EXACTLY what I expected to see from you, MoI.

E.X.A.C.T.L.Y.

You've been sitting here going through this incredibly fake back-and-forth "investigation" of Furry, but I know you have no plans of voting for him today. 1) You've rallied against me too hard for you to do that and 2) You know I will never vote for Furry. No, you need to buddy up with Furry; make him see that you've considered all the options. Make him warm up to you being a nice, logical player - which will make him want to vote for you.

And that was all fine and dandy. But then, the minute you thought the clock was going to run out out, you slam down the vote. The vote you've wanted two days ago, ever since I expressed a gut suspicion of you as scum. Because you wanted a perfect win, and you couldn't have someone with a gut scum read running freely in lylo.

So you know what? I'm not even going to cross vote - yet. I'm just going to sit here and wait for Furry to show up. Where he will either 1) quickhammer me, and I will feel very smug and self-righteous despite the loss OR 2) he will not quickhammer, I will feel very smug and self-righteous because I will know you are confirmedscum, and then FUrry and I will have a nice discussion about why you are scum and then you will (hopefully) lose.

This game may be a loss on my record, but I'm marking it down as AGM 1, MoI 0 in my personal book.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ahahahahahahaha.

That's EXACTLY what I expected to see from you, MoI.

E.X.A.C.T.L.Y.

You've been sitting here going through this incredibly fake back-and-forth "investigation" of Furry, but I know you have no plans of voting for him today. 1) You've rallied against me too hard for you to do that and 2) You know I will never vote for Furry. No, you need to buddy up with Furry; make him see that you've considered all the options. Make him warm up to you being a nice, logical player - which will make him want to vote for you.

And that was all fine and dandy. But then, the minute you thought the clock was going to run out out, you slam down the vote. The vote you've wanted two days ago, ever since I expressed a gut suspicion of you as scum. Because you wanted a perfect win, and you couldn't have someone with a gut scum read running freely in lylo.

So you know what? I'm not even going to cross vote - yet. I'm just going to sit here and wait for Furry to show up. Where he will either 1) quickhammer me, and I will feel very smug and self-righteous despite the loss OR 2) he will not quickhammer, I will feel very smug and self-righteous because I will know you are confirmedscum, and then FUrry and I will have a nice discussion about why you are scum and then you will (hopefully) lose.

This game may be a loss on my record, but I'm marking it down as AGM 1, MoI 0 in my personal book.

Lol. Let's wait for Furry.

How was the clock ticking again? It's pretty clear to me that you were just stalling for time with your non-content posting.

Actually you are the one trying to buddy Furry right now.

1. You laid that groundwork that he was Town with your 'I'll look at the Tinfoil hat theories' statement that you knew full well you weren't going to do.
2. You butter him in this post appealing to his ego.

You are only not voting now because I called you out on it and you have no choice but to 'go the other way' in an attempt to salvage a crumb of Towniness.

I'd argue with you, once again, about your empty rhetoric but I know it is fruitless. Calling someone confirmed scum because they think you are scum and are voting for you is classic.

What I take out of this -- you are going to be smug and self-righteous regardless of what happens. You lose as scum because you got caught and it wasn't your fault it was lucky scum-hunting that didn't properly apply your personal brand of 'What Scum-hunting should be'. Bravo. Glad to know your ego is intact

As I said Furry - the ball is in your court.

[Furry]

*wave*

[MagnaofIllusion]

*wave*

Ok, you're offically clear unless you are playing a cruel cruel game.

[Furry]

Given that this is this accounts last game (unless SK makes part 3 and asks me to be in it) I would have loved to just end it in a blaze of glory being something like 10 wins and 1 draw as scum as furry. instead now I have to think.... bastards

[AlmasterGM]

He.

Heheh.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAA.

I KNEW IT.

I KNEWWWWWW IT.

VOTE: MAGNAOFILLUSION

You played a good game Magna.

Too good. Which is why you became nervous and went into KILL-THE-THREAT mode 2 days ago when I mentioned a suspicion of you. And that was your undoing. If you had just LET IT GO, you would have a nice, crisp win right now.

ATTN: FURRY

- Do you actually want me to argue with Magna and/or say stuff or are you just going to make up your mind on your own? Because I can argue, but it seems like a waste to do for nothing.

DO THE RIGHT THING.

[AlmasterGM]

P.S. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW SELF-RIGHTEOUS I FEEL RIGHT NOW.

SOOOO. MUCH.

Even if we lose I am still counting this as a personal win.

[Furry]

ATTN: FURRY

- Do you actually want me to argue with Magna and/or say stuff or are you just going to make up your mind on your own? Because I can argue, but it seems like a waste to do for nothing.

Nothing extreme. Im going to spends the next 48 hours or so just looking stuff over, but if you two want to bring up some CONCSISE clear points and not make a dozen new pages I would read it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think the case I've already made has spoken for itself.

[AlmasterGM]

It does speak for itself, actually.

It speaks to the fact that you are scum because you only look at generic "tells" that half of MD dismisses as being unreliable. It only makes sense in a vacuum and not in any sort of real context. It speaks to the fact that you are scum and are trying to "game" the game - something you HAVE to do, because if you look at this game like a human being and not a scumtellrobot, I make no sense as scum and you make 100% sense as scum.

Anyway, Furry, the #1 recent thing I would say to focus on when re-reading is Magna's panic attack on me. He blew a molehill into a mountain. This is the

best tell in the game

because, psychologically, it reveals the #1 thing scum have that town don't: fear. Any scum can choose to bus or not, commit or not, answer questions or not - whatever. Look at Magna's "tells" on me ... if I was scum, do you really think I would be like, "derp I'm going to not answer Magna's questions" or "herp I'm going to call my buddy who is clearly getting lynched town"? No. Those are controllable things you DON'T DO. Which is why they are shitty tells that don't apply anywhere outside of the Newbie Queue.

Fear, on the other hand, is different.

Fear is something all scum have. It isn't a tactical choice - they HAVE to deal with it. It's a psychological reflex. It's tough to control. And what does fear lead to?

Panic.

Which is what Magna did.

[Furry]

Fear doesnt lead to panic. Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

Sorry couldnt resist

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyway, Furry, the #1 recent thing I would say to focus on when re-reading is Magna's panic attack on me. He blew a molehill into a mountain. This is the

best tell in the game

because, psychologically, it reveals the #1 thing scum have that town don't: fear.

I'll sum up why this is pure crap. It's quite simple.

The phrases 'over-defensive' and 'flailing' that are used often in cases against players. They are symptomatic of this 'panic' reaction AGM is claiming is the best in the game.

If it was that simple Town players would always react predictably and scum would be easily caught.

Yet that's clearly not the case. Time and again Town players react in a manner completely contradictory to AGM' s theory here. And AGM knows this but had nothing else. Heck, he saw firsthand Saint Kerrigan's meltdown as Town in Wolframhart's Mini Normal game.

Thanks for reminding me of that awful performance.

I'll say again - AGM's behavior and interactions with the scum this game, especially after Day 3, is indicative of scum motivation. He knows this and has made all sorts of accusations that I'm 'avoiding Large scale scumtells' or 'that I always bus when scum' in every effort to portray my scum-hunting on him as invalid.

In return all he has offered is the following -

1. I'm 'Too Good' a player not to have been NKed already.
2. My reaction and subsequent case against him is indicative of panic.

That's it. He's spent today further trying to prop himself up under the umbrella of "I knew it" and 'I'm so self-righteous'. And I'm sure, having made it this far as the last member of the scum team he considers it a personal win since he's been under pressure for 2 days and survived to endgame.

I'll return the compliment AGM. You played a good game. You looked town enough that I didn't give you a second look until you started your running streak of pushing lynches against Town players and avoiding voting your partner at all cost.

[AlmasterGM]

I'll return the compliment AGM. You played a good game. You looked town enough that I didn't give you a second look until you started your running streak of pushing lynches against Town players and avoiding voting your partner at all cost.

This statement is contradictory because good scum do not do either of those things.

You gave me a second look because I became a threat to you. I am POSITIVE if I had not mentioned your name, you would have said nothing.

Also, as a side note, I went back and looked at all your raw VCA's. It was very clever of you and Hacker both bussing SO at the same midpoint of D1. I'm using this game as a weapon against VCA in the future.

[AlmasterGM]

/le prod picked up.

Nothing more to say here except MoI is teh scumz here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

/prod acknowledged.

Lulz, AGM. Lulz.

[AlmasterGM]

Don't you LULZ at me, YOU KNOW I'M RIGHT.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Don't you LULZ at me, YOU KNOW I'M THE RIGHT ARM OF THE ARKON HIGH COMMAND.

Fixed that for you ...

[Furry]

Im about 75% of the way to a vote. Might take me being drunk to get the courage to make it though. Expect one by tomorrow night.

[SaintKerrigan]

Well, this is embarrassing. Apparently I've had a typo in my ruleset this entire game, and I only caught it just now.

Anyway, the ruleset has been modified.

From

Article III: Night

3a.

If the role or faction chooses not to submit an action, a PM to the mod stating such is preferred.

[SaintKerrigan]

All flavor has been caught up! (In case you guys are bored and need something to read...)

[Furry]

Ok.

Going to get this out there a head of time. This was an amazingly hard decision to make, and this was the one endgame that I did not want to see under any circumstance. Someone I have had a slight scum read on, and someone who I have secretly been very paranoid of being scum for the entire game. This also is why chess needed to die yesterday, he couldnt be allowed to be alive in an endgame because I would have wanted to lynch him just because I didnt want to lose to him if he was scum and won by being a massive VI.

I went back and forth on this one for a long time. I can make a legitimate arguement for either of you to be scum, and at this stage I doubt that anything you say would dissuade me from following through with my vote. For that reason I decided to take a difference stance in approaching how I was going to decide who to vote, in hopes that it gave me more of a soild platform to put a vote on. I put myself in your guys shoes, trying to see what I would have done in this game if I was scum.

For the day one lynch, I think I would have been a bit hesitant to lynch the scum doctor, since it ment that there would be one, if not two killing roles in the game. Now AGM got himself on the wagon early and didnt let go. At the same time though, he never really championed the wagon making himself look really good for a SO-scum flip except for the fact that he was first on the wagon. Instead he attacked rival wagons, which really doesnt gain him much credit due to lack of actually fueling the SO wagon. MoI came in around the fall of the Data wagon, and then left for the NC wagon and tried to push that one noisily for some time. Later he returned to the SO wagon at the same time that he was in the process of claiming really poorly. Im still interested in reading the scum QT at this point to see what exactly happened.

Night one is interesting, the Nik kill is something I see from MoI 100%. However day two is a wash.

Great thing to note that I found is that if scum, MoI actually dug himself a hole D3 such that he had to claim power, VT was out of the question. Not sure what this really means since at this point in the game I didnt know that SOB Op was a VT role since I apparently got some wierd one, but its something of note that may come into play.

Well, im getting all jittery again, as I said, probably a good 70 games and this is actually the first time ive been in a non easy choice 3 player endgame. Also may as well just throw down my vote and the reasoning for it now. Reasoning first though, and its going to contraverisal I know.

Its the Hacker wagon.

The people alive at that point: AlmasterGM, Furry, camn, Thor665, MagnaofIllusion, chesskid3, Cogito Ergo Sum, Thadmril, HackerHuck

Now, that is nine alive, two scum. For scum to win this game, they would need to cause three straight mislynches if Thad didnt shoot (which we already said he wouldnt). At this point though... who CAN be lynched over HH? Chess obviously, but then what? Maybe by some miracle we lynch both Thor and someone else random? Basically, I dont think scum could have won with HH still alive. So this begs a new question, what was the best plan of attack for scum in this sitation. I actually think the answer is to bus. You lay into your partner and take him out, followed by taking down Thad/camn the next night. The other the following, and then one other person to make the ideal three player endgame. I really started thinking this when I said "like I would have done" to MoI earlier. It struck me, he has played almost exactly like I would have played if I was scum in this game. The SO lynch, the pushing of the possible lynch players in middle game, taking down HH to be able to make it to F3. The only difference is order of kills (would have taken camn over CES to start to be able to take dominant spot). With all of that in mind, its time to bit the bullet and

Vote MoI

Good game to whoever won. If im wrong please dont hurt me.