Into Africa - Over

[Llamarble]

Huh, metaresearch was fascinating and useful. Apparently Cirno is a guy?
Anyway, he is competent scum and when he is scum he behaves as he has behaved here.
That and some serious counterwagoning efforts.
VOTE: Cirno

I will post powercases and make people lynch who I want you to when I get through deepreading everyone.

[elvis_knits]

Current thoughts:

Seacore: hasn't made me feel any better about him. His excuse for not mentioning Hez is that he hasn't mentioned many people because he's been skimming. That's lame because my point is that Hez was a big deal yesterday and it's completely unnatural not to mention him or take a stand on him at all. Even if you're skimming you have to say something about Hez. Also, he's still not posting reads, which is not cool, and exactly what Hez was doing yesterday.

Earworm: Also scum.

GreyIce: Increasingly suspicious of him since sorting out my mis-remembering of the Hezwagon. I don't like that he thinks Seacore is town because "Seacore isn't flailing." The fact that Seacore continues to do nothing useful doesn't make me think he's town. It's actually the way Hez acted yesterday. Also Grey is ignoring Seacore's suspicious treatment of Hez.

Llamarble:

Atil: Need to reread after reading this:

Look at Atil's jump on Hez, and IMMEDIATE ABANDON SHIP from him. *Take into account he may be a semi-newb.

I don't remember this so I'm gonna look back. I don't know how new Atil is, but he seems pretty smart, so I wouldn't give him too much of an excuse in that regard. He does not strike me as VI-ish at all.

[Cirno]

>This is a pure flavor argument. I doubt this game breaks totally on flavor. You're basically tossing away responsibility for his flip here - if he flips town, you're like 'oh guess LlamaFluff did use that flavor after all, tee hee.'

No matter what a person bases his votes on, they can always shrug and say that they were wrong. I don't think my votes allow me to shirk responsibility anymore than yours. And I'll say it again, we have more reason to believe hyena is scum than otherwise.

>Ignoring the flavor, the claim of day-vig that can only kill lurkers is like unimpeachable town. You've ignored this.
Rather, I choose not to ignore the flavor.

>Yeah, that's the answer I'd expect... from scum. Who the fuck cares what you're lynching, as long as it doesn't share your win condition?
Yes, you are right. I really do not care what he is as long as his death helps my win condition.

>Blah blah I never commented blah blah.
For the record, I did comment on Hezlucky's wagon.

>Blah blah town logic at all you'll vote for either wagon right now.
I don't mean to say I will support either wagon, rather that I won't argue against either one and that I favor one over the other. I don't plan on changing my vote to either wagon (or at all, really).

>Anyway, he is competent scum and when he is scum he behaves as he has behaved here.
[citation needed]

[GreyICE]

@Cirno: If you say you are wrong, you say you are wrong about the moderator's FLAVOR. You don't have to explain any of your reads. Moreover, you have not provided any reason he's scummy beyond blatant flavor analysis, and continue to both do so and SUPPORT THIS POSITION.

[elvis_knits]

Cirno, I don't care if you don't want to actually go to the trouble to quote people, but can you make a note of who said the things you're answering from now on? I find it confusing to read without knowing who you're talking to, especially when you answer questions from multiple people in one post.

[Altilysian]

Seacore just looks naturally scummy to me because he went along with the rather bad cop claim (IMO). Seacore's responses have not been bad so far. I will need to hear what content he brings out next week.

Look at Atil's jump on Hez, and IMMEDIATE ABANDON SHIP from him. *Take into account he may be a semi-newb.

I've already explained this, but I'll elaborate. I was at work and saw the wagon forming on HezLucky, so I made a quick post jumping on it. It was certainly a wagon I supported. So over the next half hour, as I was doing tedious work, I was thinking about HezLucky some more and reread some of his posts. I started second-guessing myself because I put two and two together: his overreaction toward CKD and his suspicion of people defending FA might be explained by this segment buried in his wall post:

Alti #387 - it's called "acting". The scum will say "dammit I was town" and peopel will tihnk "oh he must be telling the truth seeing
as he's already dead" ... but in fact, if the daykill was fake the scum just gained huge townie points in people's eyes. Town have no
motivation to do this. Too self-preservationist (although now that I think about it, it's entirely possible the Elli/FA exchange was
a setup and they aer both scum)

^That was the first time he explained why he found FA's claim scummy. CKD had kept pressuring him on why a VT claim is scummy, but he never gave a straight answer; that was part of what confused me. When he finally answered that and I was able to see that in the context of his actions, I was able to reevaluate my suspicions. So 32 minutes after I made the post in which I voted, I figured I'd be transparent and post what was going through my mind, rather than keeping it to myself.

So that's the real explanation of what happened. But FA, humor me, what is the explanation of why I did that as scum?

[Cirno]

>If you say you are wrong, you say you are wrong about the moderator's FLAVOR.
I get what you are saying. Voting based on flavor gives me an excuse if he flips town. First, I don't think making such a vote is something more likely to be done by scum than town. Second, whether or not it gives me an excuse is irrelevant when the excuse isn't going to be accepted. And clearly, you aren't going to accept it.

>You don't have to explain any of your reads.
I don't see how I am excluded from explaining all of my reads. The 'I don't care about his play.' was in reference to ckd specifically. I don't care about his play because his claim gives me reason enough to lynch him. Currently, I don't have a scum read on anyone else strong enough to convince me to vote them over ckd.

>Moreover, you have not provided any reason he's scummy beyond blatant flavor analysis, and continue to both do so and SUPPORT THIS POSITION.
That is because blatant flavor analysis is the reason I find him scummy and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

The lips of a hippo are about two feet wide and cover a mouth that is capable of opening over four feet wide.

Seacore (6) - Flavour Analysis, snarky, DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, Calcifer, Altilysian
GreyICE (3) - ZeL1nK, vezokpiraka, curiouskarmadog
Cirno (2) - GreyICE, Llamarble
evilpacman18 (1) - earworm
curiouskarmadog (1) - Cirno
Llamarble (1) - Lowell

Not Voting (4) - populartajo, Amun, Seacore, evilpacman18

With 18 alive it takes 10 to lynch

earworm is V/LA until the 3rd
curiouskarmadog is V/LA until the 3rd

[Llamarble]

TOWN:
Llamarble
Lowell
Zelink
Altilysian
FA
GreyICE?


SCUM:
Cirno
Amrun
Vezok?

CKD isn't mafia. Whether he is town is unclear.

PENDING FURTHER INVESTIGATION:
Everyone else.

[evilpacman18]

It would be ironic if I was right about Seacore in my opening post for wrong reasons.

[populartajo]

As I said yesterday hiena is not a town claim and that means ckd gets lynched sooner or later specially after all that "confirm vote: greyice for not answering questions".

Now Hezlucky scum means that we have VOTECOUNT ANALYSIS specially after that ckd-hez battle of claims.

curiouskarmadog (4) - GreyICE, HezLucky, Fate, vezokpiraka
Llamarble (4) - elvis_knits, Seacore, curiouskarmadog, Lowell
HezLucky (2) - Flavour Analysis, ZeL1nK
evilpacman18 (2) - Amrun, earworm
Fate (1) - Cirno
elvis_knits (1) - DietyKabuto
ZeL1nK (1) - snarky

Not Voting (5) - evilpacman18, populartajo, inHimshallibe, jilynne1991, Llamarble

With 21 alive it takes 12 to lynch

This is an interesting votecout since hez wasnt pressured yet and scum pretty much are distributed in ckd and llamable (yep that means llamarble is probtown, see below)
This means one of GreyICE, vezokpiraka, elvis_knits, Seacore, Lowell is scum.

Since I think elvis is town this means its one of ice, vezok, seacore or lowell.

HezLucky (6) - Flavour Analysis, ZeL1nK, populartajo, vezokpiraka, GreyICE, Fate
Llamarble (4) - elvis_knits, Seacore, curiouskarmadog, Lowell
Fate (1) - Cirno
Lowell (1) - earworm
snarky (1) - Amrun
curiouskarmadog (1) - HezLucky
ZeL1nK (1) - snarky

Not Voting (6) - evilpacman18, inHimshallibe, jilynne1991, Llamarble, DietyKabuto, Altilysian

Competing wagons. Yeah, thats what I ws refering to when I said Llamarble is probtown, which means there is alredy one scum bussing hez and one scum stuck in llamarble.

Since FA is town from day 1, we have zelink, vezok and greyice again.

HezLucky (7) - Flavour Analysis, ZeL1nK, populartajo, vezokpiraka, GreyICE, Fate, DietyKabuto
Llamarble (6) - elvis_knits, Seacore, curiouskarmadog, Lowell, snarky, Cirno
snarky (2) - Amrun, evilpacman18
Lowell (1) - earworm
curiouskarmadog (1) - HezLucky

Interesting to note that llamarble wagon got to 6 while hez only got to 7. Trying to decide if either cirno and snarky are too bold or too noob to try a counterwagon at that time.

HezLucky (11) - Flavour Analysis, ZeL1nK, populartajo, vezokpiraka, GreyICE, DietyKabuto, Altilysian, curiouskarmadog, Amrun, Fate, Calcifer
curiouskarmadog (4) - HezLucky, earworm, Seacore, Cirno
Llamarble (3) - elvis_knits, Lowell, snarky
snarky (1) - evilpacman18

Final lynch. 100% we have scum in the last voters.

One of DK, Alti, Amrun or Calcifer.

[populartajo]

vote vezok

[ZeL1nK]

GI is scum. vezok is town. Overall, I agree with your VCA.

I'll elaborate on this later. Don't have time just now.

It's mostly to do with the fact GI hasn't strongly pushed a single case on anyone. He's just been coasting by D1/D2, and his 'case' on Cirno is bad. This isn't GI-town.

[evilpacman18]

I'm pretty ok with this. Very ok. Also, sorry for my play. It'll improve soon (intentionally vague).

vote: Seacore

[DeityKabuto]

TOWN:
Llamarble
Lowell
Zelink
Altilysian
FA
GreyICE?


SCUM:
Cirno
Amrun
Vezok?

CKD isn't mafia. Whether he is town is unclear.

PENDING FURTHER INVESTIGATION:
Everyone else.

Why not Seacore?

[Flavour Analysis]

@

Elvis K

: Yeah I don't see GI's reasoning for Seacore town to be good at all. Also true, Atil does seem smart so I'll keep that in mind. It happened as soon as the Hez wagon started picking up speed.

@

Llamarble

: Yeah, what are your thoughts on Seacore?

@

Atil

: I'll get to you shortly.

[Flavour Analysis]

@

Atil

:

Yes but you never did so before. So obviously the reason why you 're-read' was because you weren't sure about your vote on him. Why exactly did you start "putting two and two" together? Why haven't you commented on that certain quote before? Did you read that quote BEFORE your 'realization'?

I thought it was scummy because you seemed to have been eager to join the Hez wagon to SEEM town, and then jump right back off for some odd reason. Who else have you even voted this game, Atil?

[Flavour Analysis]

@Nvm at the voting question, since you have voted Earworm and Hez. Better question, who will you vote ToDay?

[vezokpiraka]

TOWN:
Llamarble
Lowell
Zelink
Altilysian
FA
GreyICE?


SCUM:
Cirno
Amrun
Vezok?

CKD isn't mafia. Whether he is town is unclear.

PENDING FURTHER INVESTIGATION:
Everyone else.

Why not Seacore?

Why are me and GI with a uestion and in separate groups?

[Snarky]

Shall not catch up before monday. Sorry guys.

[Altilysian]

@

Atil

:

Yes but you never did so before. So obviously the reason why you 're-read' was because you weren't sure about your vote on him. Why exactly did you start "putting two and two" together? Why haven't you commented on that certain quote before? Did you read that quote BEFORE your 'realization'?

I thought it was scummy because you seemed to have been eager to join the Hez wagon to SEEM town, and then jump right back off for some odd reason. Who else have you even voted this game, Atil?

I read it when he first posted it, but I didn't connect it to his scummy behavior vs CKD. I was like, "okay so that might be why he was displeased with FA's claim, but he's still super scummy for his overreaction against CKD." So I joined the bandwagon. I didn't realize how those two things (his displeasure with FA's claim and his OMGUS against CKD) might be related. That's what I meant by putting two and two together. I rethink things a lot, especially after I post (because I'm still in the mafiascum mood after that) and especially when I'm doing boring, repetitive work. So I realized that OMGUS suspicions against CKD might have been caused by a genuine suspicion that CKD was chainsawing to defend FA. I decided to be transparent and be public about the thoughts in my head, so I posted my thoughts and unvoted.

So then we started discussing Hez and my actions. In the process, of course I was thinking and rethinking the Hez matter. As I was typing up my response #856 to you, of course I was considering Hez again. As I was typing it up, I realized that even though Hez's reaction vs CKD can be explained and traced back to FA's claim, it is still scummy that Hez focused solely and heavily on matters related to that claim. His "I can't scumhunt because you're questioning me, CKD" looked much more scummy in that context. That's why I was convinced he was scummy again.

So that's my thought process.

I thought it was scummy because you seemed to have been eager to join the Hez wagon to SEEM town, and then jump right back off for some odd reason. Who else have you even voted this game, Atil?

And I propose to you that yes, it's odd, but does that make it scummy? It's odd to you because you're not in my head and don't see the thought processes going through it.

Better question, who will you vote ToDay?

I'm voting Seacore right now because:

With the exception of the highly social spotted hyena, hyenas are generally not gregarious animals, though they may live in family groups and congregate at kills.

I see hyenas as loner types, so I see CKD as a SK. However, I agree with Elvis and I think we can wait before lynching him.
-
Seacore is my preferred off-the-wagon lynch. In his post 880, he makes an argument against Hez and then P-edits his CKD vote after seeing the claim. I just have a hard time seeing scum doing that, making an argument against his partner and then jumping off in the same post. Earworm seemed to have genuinely considered Hez's cop claim as real. Seacore and Cirno's votes were actually pretty similar (using the same reasoning and they both got off the Llamarble wagon). Both votes were scummy, but otherwise, Cirno has been town-telling for me.

Llamarble's 917 is actually kind of a town tell for me. I can't really see scum still defending his partner after the hammer has been laid.

As for on-the-wagon, GreyICE's apparent "random" vote on CKD in the beginning of Day 2 is still scummy as I noted in my 799. The shift to the Hez wagon is kinda scummy. The Fate is bussing reason is bizarre. His initial vote on CKD implies that he agreed with Hez's assertions that CKD was pushing too hard. How swiftly he switched sides is scummy. He's my preferred "on-the-wagon" lynch.

I think I'll go for the scum-link over the bus for now.

Vote: Seacore

and

Seacore just looks naturally scummy to me because he went along with the rather bad cop claim (IMO)

[ZeL1nK]

I realized that even though Hez's reaction vs CKD can be explained and traced back to FA's claim, it is still scummy that Hez focused solely and heavily on matters related to that claim. His "I can't scumhunt because you're questioning me, CKD" looked much more scummy in that context. That's why I was convinced he was scummy again.

This actually makes me feel better about you. It's the exact same reason I thought Hez was scum, and it's an issue I brought up with him D1 that he never responded to.

--

I'd prefer people slow down with this Seacore wagon. He really hasn't done anything overtly scummy. I'm not a fan of his lurking, and I do want to see what he has to say when he finally catches up, but I don't have any strong feelings that he's scum.

Also, any wagon Snarky jumps on, I'm automatically going to second guess.

As far as GI goes, I'd like people to actually read him in ISO and tell me whether they can agree with this. It helps if you've played with GI before, which I assume most people have.

So D1, we have him come into the game with his spoiler wall, which was lacking in any real content. Criticisms of the silavor wagon straight away based on who is on the wagon.

This here:

So lemme see, obvscum:

EvilPacman
Vezok
Snarky

Probscum:
Llamarble for voting for Silavor. Something doesn't equal four.
Inhim - ISO

Was why he thought the silavor wagon was bad.

But he never strongly pushed a case on any of these 'obvscum' players. All he did was some back-and-forth with Fate, asked a few people to analyse the silavor wagon, and then... nothing. There was no conviction to see this silavor wagon die. There was no conviction to see another wagon start. It was just "the silavor wagon sucks" and that's it.

As an aside, anyone who's played with GI before, have you ever seen him do this as town? Have you ever seen him coast by and not strongly push a case on one or more of his scum picks?

D2, what do we get? Much of the same. More Fate crap, followed by his CKD vote, based on something smelling... He coasts by for a while on the CKD wagon before it collapses, at which point he follows Fate to the Hez wagon, explaining that Fate is bussing. Yeah. No suspicion of Hez, no comment on Hez's play. This kind of sheeping comes from GI-scum. He was mostly inactive for the rest of D2 (not going to fault him or this, I don't think it had anything to do with his alignment in this game), but the one other post he made was a joke to DK, which really wasn't helpful at all.

This is GI-scum. Fo sho. I'm much too lazy to look at GI's scum meta and find out if this actually matches his scum play, but I'm very, very sure this doesn't match his town play and it's just scummy play regardless of his meta.

His case on Cirno is pretty dodgy, and Cirno is still looking town to me in this GI-Cirno exchange. Like he has a point about Cirno's flavour reasoning, but I'm not seeing how it necessarily follows that Cirno is scum...

Also, if GI is scum, I'm pretty sure Seacore is town. Looks similar to D1 "silavor=town" stuff.

[Llamarble]

I hadn't really looked at Seacore yet, but he seems town.
GreyICE could easily be scum. Vezok could easily be town.
Not sure about Tajo's VCA yet.

Honestly, I post mostly for my own benefit until I am confident enough that I have figured things out to tell other people who to lynch.
I'll get to that point soon though.

[Snarky]

Eh I want to reconcile with you Zelink.

unvote vote GreyIce

Or does that piss you off?...

No seriously your case convinced me. And Seacore is acting townily since the wagon started.

I should never join a large game again... I'm just too confused to get proper reads, cause there are too many people and too many pages, and that kills my envy to catchup so I'll just jump on the shiniest wagon until there are fewer players alive (or I die).

No no I know what I'll do, I will just start playing actively without rereading, I might be more useful like that...

[Snarky]

Hey here's my list that you shouldn't rely on because I am too much confused:

Town: Atil, ZeLink, EK, FA, llamarble (based on Tajo's VCA), tajo.
Scum: Amrum, CKD(Well, not town...), earworm (I don't remember him a lot, but I remember his play wasn't really impressive), evilpacman18, GreyIce
Null: Calcifer, Cirno, DK, Lowell, Seacore, vezok


Zelink: If you are so sure I'm scum, why do you fear voting me since Day 2?