Open 337: Twin Trap (Game Over)


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Post Post #250 (ISO) » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:37 pm

Post by neil1113 »

Do you realize the above post is the first time Fakinha has mentioned ANYTHING concerning Delta in a questioning manner? It's usually "wow, good point!" Or "Delta, whatcha think about this?"

Anyways, I'm debating if there's any point in even pursuing this game anymore. I've posted a defense, but it seems as though everyone has ignored it because Delta with his mass postings called it "lame and AtE." Emotion isn't scummy, it's a null point I thought. Everyone seems to keep making the assumption "When Neil flips..." so even though I'm town, if it's already set on me being lynched, what's the point in even trying anymore? I've defended myself, posted everything truthful and answered every opposition against me. Yet scum has done a good job of pointing me as the lynch target of the day.

  • Votecount 2-6


    neil1113
    (3)
    Fakinha
    ,
    DeltaWave
    ,
    Thomas
    [L-1]

    Fakinha
    (1)
    neil1113

    DeltaWave
    (1)
    Isa


    Not Voting:

    Collyer
    ,
    bv310


    Notes

  • With
    7
    alive, it takes
    4
    to lynch
  • The deadline for Day 2 is Saturday, October 29th, 12:00AM UTC
Last edited by SigmaEXE003 on Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spoiler: My Record for Mafiascum.net
#1. 5-2 Scum
#2. 3-6 Town
#3. 0-1 3rd Party
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When I read up, I was just amazed by neil. Awesome reads.
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Post Post #251 (ISO) » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:59 pm

Post by Thomas »

Collyer wrote:Thomas, I asked you whether or not you had any more arguments for your pretty confident vote on Neil and you gave some okay reasons from day one. However, from a very quick read of your posts, I don't get the impression that you made much of a fuss about it yesterday. Also, why do you have a null read on Isa when he's been buddying Neil an embarrassing amount? I don't understand about how Neil could be buddying Fakhina or you, could you explain?
Yeah I don't remember attacking neil at all on D1. I remember that I said neil made some better points than bv in the neil vs. bv argument though. Either I didn't notice some of his mistakes or they were really small but it was after his hammer on pinkfloyd when I iso'ed him and started to get the scum read on him. I remember in post #160 you mentioned Isa to me and I said I would go back and see if I thought he was buddying but I forgot about that. I'll quickly do that now... Okay so Isa said he agreed with neil's post #58 (which was a good post) and then for the rest of D1 Isa had a town read on neil but post #142 by Isa is when it really did start to sound like buddying when Isa said there was no way he would lynched neil. In post #165 Isa said he was not buddying neil and reading down later on in the iso, it doesn't look like much has changed. This is buddying and he's either scum or somehow really convinced that neil is town. Isa, has your read on neil changed at all after his hammer on pinkfloyd yesterday?
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Post Post #252 (ISO) » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:25 am

Post by Isa »

I still believe Neil is town. I am not as die-hard convinced as I was yesterday, but I still have him as a town read. This has changed due to the massive amount of AtE he has pulled out today and the lack of following up upon his questions from day 1. The hammer had poor timing, but I don't see it as scummy.

Judging by day 1 only, if you skip the hammer, was there really anyone willing to lynch Neil? By the end of the day, only Collyer (and Shinki, partly) seemed to be willing to vote Neil.

Anyway...time is running out. I will support the lynch on DeltaWave or Fakinha today - either works, but I'm more willing to lynch DeltaWave if I may choose between the two. If anyone wants to push any other last-minute wagons, please do so NOW. We only have four days and the pace of this game isn't fast enough for us to drag it down even further.
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Post Post #253 (ISO) » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Post by Thomas »

Isa wrote:Judging by day 1 only, if you skip the hammer, was there really anyone willing to lynch Neil? By the end of the day, only Collyer (and Shinki, partly) seemed to be willing to vote Neil.
Well if pinkfloyd wasn't trolling and hogging the spotlight then I'm sure more people would have attacked neil.

Isa wrote:Anyway...time is running out. I will support the lynch on DeltaWave or Fakinha today - either works, but I'm more willing to lynch DeltaWave if I may choose between the two. If anyone wants to push any other last-minute wagons, please do so NOW. We only have four days and the pace of this game isn't fast enough for us to drag it down even further.
The deadline is less than what you said. We have less than 3 days now. I'm not sure if I follow on why people are suspicious of Delta. Is it neil's OMGUS? I must have read the last page too quickly so I should read it over again.
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Post Post #254 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:29 am

Post by DeltaWave »

I want to make a pie chart of Neil's reasons for suspecting me, it would look like 82% OMGUS, 19% AtE.

At least Neil has OMGUS reasons to vote me, Isa is doing it just because I've got my sights on his scumbuddy.
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Post Post #255 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:35 am

Post by DeltaWave »

EBWODP: To "suspect" me, as he is not currently voting me.
When there's trouble, you call DW.

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Post Post #256 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:42 am

Post by neil1113 »

Since when did OMGUS ever discredit a case? Don't be stupid people. And I've already mentioned my suspicion, and possible suspicion WAY before Delta voted me. I mentioned my initial suspicion the minute they both started playing off of each other and how it looked like obvious buddying. They continued to buddy and made a ridiculous attempt at trying to pitch me as scummy, and thus you've had my vote. I've made a CASE on both of them, and Delta himself is scummy. Just ISO him, and you'll see. Or look at my posts concerning him. It's quite obvious.

Again, if you discredit a case for whatever reason, you're not playing to your win condition. Null-tells do not always equal scum people.
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Post Post #257 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:57 am

Post by DeltaWave »

Yeah right, you said there "could be" scum in the two people that replaced (e.g. me and fahkina), don't try to play it off like you were suspecting me all along.
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Post Post #258 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:37 am

Post by Collyer »

DeltaWave wrote:Yeah, change what I'm saying, add some assumptions, create some implications I never intended, and you come to the conclusion that it's anti-town.

Anyway, you've shown yourself to be crappy at paraphrasing. You add implications and assumptions that were never in the original statement. I can't trust you to accurately describe what anyone else is doing, so show me the originals if you want me to respond to something particular.


It isn't anti town then? I don't care whether or not you intended the implication, that doesn't mean you didn't imply something does it? You need to be more careful with what you're saying because it will incriminate you. What assumptions did I add? If you mean I assumed that you implyed what I thought you implyed, does that mean no one should ever infer something ever again, since it's an assumption, and it might not be what the author had intended when he hastily wrote it? That's ridiculous.

1. In post 101 he attacks malpascp for a random vote on bv, and then claims to have a town read on bv in the same post (without giving any reasons).
2. In post 104 he votes for pink, without reason again.
3. In post 136 he votes for neil, without reason again, and seemingly with no thought for his vote on pink. On both of these occasions he says 'discuss' or 'I want comments' as if that's a justification for voting without reason. He also questions shinki in post 113 for the same thing that he himself is guilty of.
4. Since voting for Neil, he's hardly contributed anything of merit, and he didn't before voting for Neil anyway. The only resembelance of a case is his post 138 where he regurgitates the argument about Neil hammering; stating one thing that another player did that is scummy isn't enough to not contribute any more, and it isn't very town like.

All I wanted was your thoughts on this, since you said you had a null tell on all of this. Your response was that Fakinha's actions are the result of someone who doesn't have much information, but that just doesn't work does it? Look at his posts and tell me that he isn't being lazy and unhelpful. Incidentally I didn't ask you about his buddying (I presume you mean to you, despite the fact that you joined him on the Neil bandwagon) but it's interesting you mention it.

Fakinha, here is a definition for bussing.

Neil it's hypocritical to attack Fakinha and DeltaWave for buddying when it's a null tell when it happens to you. The argument that it only contributes to a case if you think the person has a 'scum mindset' is far too convinient.

Isa, your post is complete rubbish. I wasn't willing to lynch Neil yesterday, and I don't know where you got that idea from. Lastly, you encourage others to start a wagon now so there is enough time to see it through, as if your willing to accept any wagon as long as it results in a lynch.

neil1113 wrote:Again, if you discredit a case for whatever reason, you're not playing to your win condition. Null-tells do not always equal scum people.


I don't get this at all. How does discrediting a case act against your win condition? What if you discredit the case of someone who is the opposing faction, surely that works in your favour?
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Post Post #259 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:51 am

Post by Isa »

Collyer, you're certainly not making it easy for me to guess who you'd vote for. You haven't put down a single vote this entire game. My guess was taken from your arguments with Neil yesterday. If you want to complain about me making bad guesses, why don't you make it easier for me to guess? In fact, why haven't you bothered voting once? YOU are the one that seems to come off as willing to lynch anyone (except Thomas and Bv).

I encourage people to get their shit together so that we're not looking at a No Lynch at the end of the day, which would only bring us to MyLo.
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Post Post #260 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:52 am

Post by Isa »

EBWOP: Well, outside of the RVS at least, you haven't voted.
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Post Post #261 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:01 am

Post by DeltaWave »

Inferences are a great way to twist words. I'll explain exactly how you are doing so, just in case you are town.

I stated in Post 244: "I'm saying that I'm going to concentrate more on active players."
In Post 245, you inferred from that: "Are you serious telling me that we shouldn't concentrate on players who aren't active?"

I can't believe I'm explaining this in such detail, but here goes.

(1) I'm talking about
my
personal
tendency to focus on more active people simply because there's more information out there.
(2) That's
no
commentary on how anyone
should
act, including myself. I'm saying that I can investigate harder when someone gives me more to investigate.
(3) At
no point
did I mention what anyone else should do, or what would be the best course of action.

That's why you're wrong. Inferences can be useful, but not if they're completely illogical.

As for your interpretations of Fakhina's posts.

(Post 101): He clearly indicated that he wasn't sure of his town read and he would have to go back and check it. He also attacked mal for being sarcastic, not for voting BV. This isn't at all like you described it.
(Post 104): He does give a reason. He linked to post 28.
(Post 136): Again, he cites a post as a reason.

That's why I think you are improperly characterizing fakhina's posts and you're making improper inferences with mine.
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Post Post #262 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:05 am

Post by Isa »

DeltaWave wrote:just in case you are town.
So he is a scumread of yours?
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Post Post #263 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:07 am

Post by DeltaWave »

Isa wrote:
DeltaWave wrote:just in case you are town.
So he is a scumread of yours?


Unlike you and Neil, I have no role-related information as to who is town and who is scum...
When there's trouble, you call DW.

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Post Post #264 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:10 am

Post by Isa »

scumREAD. Don't dodge the question.
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Post Post #265 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:16 am

Post by DeltaWave »

Isa wrote:scumREAD. Don't dodge the question.


Do I really need to explain the basic principle of Mafia that as town, you must consider everyone to be potentially guilty unless there's substantial evidence to say otherwise? I put Collyer in the same bucket as many people in this game; maybe town, maybe not.
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Post Post #266 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:17 am

Post by Isa »

You know, it's a good thing to find townreads, even if you weren't aware, it's true. You're implying that you only have scumreads and nullreads, is that true?
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Post Post #267 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:18 am

Post by DeltaWave »

Isa wrote:You know, it's a good thing to find townreads, even if you weren't aware, it's true. You're implying that you only have scumreads and nullreads, is that true?


Who does it benefit when someone posts townreads? (Hint: Not the town.)
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Post Post #268 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:22 am

Post by Isa »

I asked you for a scumread though.
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Post Post #269 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:22 am

Post by Isa »

*about a scumread.
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Post Post #270 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:57 am

Post by neil1113 »

Collyer wrote:Neil it's hypocritical to attack Fakinha and DeltaWave for buddying when it's a null tell when it happens to you. The argument that it only contributes to a case if you think the person has a 'scum mindset' is far too convinient.

neil1113 wrote:Again, if you discredit a case for whatever reason, you're not playing to your win condition. Null-tells do not always equal scum people.


I don't get this at all. How does discrediting a case act against your win condition? What if you discredit the case of someone who is the opposing faction, surely that works in your favour?


To the top post:

When did I buddy? And I never claimed buddying was a scum-tell did I? However, tells are easily enforced when you have a suspicion on someone, because you're judging people not by their character, but by their motivation. I don't understand your last part, because that's EXACTLY what we're supposed to be looking for. Scum Mindsets. You can't tell someone is scum just by posts, it's the motivation behind the posts. Unless of course you're playing a Newbie game, but that's different.

To the bottom post:

I should've clarified, though I figured anyone with half sense would understand where I'm coming from. As town, it makes no sense to skip over or discredit a person's case, despite your reads on them. If the case is accurate/right and you just choose to ignore it, you're not playing the game of Mafia from a Town's perspective. The point of town is to find the incriminating evidence, and lynch those who are scum in town's clothing. Ignoring a case that could potentially be accurate, for whatever reason, is a dangerous game. If you're the person that the case is on however, like Delta, it makes sense to simply say "Oh whatever. OMGUS. Don't even read the case... afterall, it might be right and eliminate me! Then it'd leave only my partner left..." I can understand Delta ignoring my posts, since they are right, but I want to draw attention back to my content concerning Delta and Fakinha, because of my suspicions. I want others to read them, and not just ignore them because Delta did a great job of pushing them back a couple pages with his insistent bickering (like what he's currently doing with Isa.)
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Spoiler: My Record for Mafiascum.net
#1. 5-2 Scum
#2. 3-6 Town
#3. 0-1 3rd Party
Archaebob
-
Hats off to Neil for some incredible town play.

Me=Weird
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When I read up, I was just amazed by neil. Awesome reads.
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Post Post #271 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:23 am

Post by Fakinha »

@Col
1 - I explained why. It's in the post.
2 - I explained my vote on pink too.
3 - I voted on him because by reviewing day 1, I came to the conclusion that he's scum. Seems that Delta did the same pattern, btw.
4 - Why would I vote anyone aside pink on day 1? I don't know why people focuses on the hammer so much, I don't think it is the point.

And oh, THAT's what bussing means... I must say that's something I like very much to do when playing mafia because I'm a bastard, but I wouldn't do it here and I'm not mafia.

And Jesus, you're totally misinterpreting my posts or trying to change the look of them. If I wasn't so convinced about Neil and Isa being scumbuddys, I'd vote for you right now.
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Post Post #272 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:25 pm

Post by DeltaWave »

@Isa - I'm undecided on Collyer. I said this before, plain and simple (Post 264). Starting to think that you're doing everything in your power to divert the conversation away from Neil.

@Neil - Here you are again with these appeals to emotion. Or should they be called appeals to ego? Either way, you've consistently based your arguments on this foundation (both implicit and explicit) that people must be stupid or unaware to vote for you. ("Half sense", is how you put it.) Once you strip away all that BS filler, your case is founded only on OMGUS. Merely speculating that my spot could have been scum at one point earlier in the game is not sufficient foundation for you to be so certain about your read. This is why the town is jumping down your throat; your position is illogical and when that gets pointed out, you make these subtle and not-so-subtle appeals to emotion and ego. This is one reason why I know you are scum.
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Post Post #273 (ISO) » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:21 pm

Post by neil1113 »

DeltaWave wrote:@Isa - I'm undecided on Collyer. I said this before, plain and simple (Post 264). Starting to think that you're doing everything in your power to divert the conversation away from Neil.

@Neil - Here you are again with these appeals to emotion. Or should they be called appeals to ego? Either way, you've consistently based your arguments on this foundation (both implicit and explicit) that people must be stupid or unaware to vote for you.
1.("Half sense", is how you put it.)
Once you strip away all that BS filler, your case is founded only on OMGUS.
2.Merely speculating that my spot could have been scum at one point earlier in the game is not sufficient foundation for you to be so certain about your read.
3.This is why the town is jumping down your throat;
your position is illogical and when that gets pointed out, you make these subtle and not-so-subtle appeals to emotion and ego.
4.This is one reason why I know you are scum.


1. You've completely misrepped the post DIRECTLY above you. You're quite stupid here. Look above your post and see what I was addressing as "half sense." It wasn't voting for me. It actually had nothing to do with voting for me. It had to do with discrediting cases. Nice try.

2. Really? Only on OMGUS? In the post here I've made 3 different points about Fakinha, and completely separate of that I made 3 different points addressed to this scum to show how faulty his case was, how stretching it is, and how it was a completely anti-town based case and he couldn't address those points. He STILL hasn't. In that same post, you're only case at that point was "The hammer wasn't good." Even your scum partner pointed out how incredibly weak of an attempt at a wagon that was.

And then here again I reiterated the 3 points that he refused to respond to, which split his case wide open and showed it for what it was. A scum-motivated push.

Then we get to you. Here you blatantly misrep me, and I make 3 great points that you've had no response to besides "OMGUS" and "AtE (emotion or ego)" and then claim it doesn't count. It doesn't work that way.

So the whole "It's nothing but OMGUS" is bull crap. Deal with the 3 points first, which I've re-posted for you 4 different times now I believe, and then you can justify it as nothing but OMGUS. Until then, you've got a case on you, and it's a pretty good one. Because it's based on FACTS and not "you're just scum." You have no case on me, and if you think you do, I beg you to make one. I've addressed every single thing you've mentioned to me when you've actually attempted (but as shown through this game, have not succeeded.)

3. The town isn't jumping down my throat lol. But great attempt at seeming threatening. Or rather, trying.

4. AtE is a scum-tell? How is scum more likely to be emotional then town? Does personality not matter? Experience? Life decisions? Current circumstances? AtE (or being emotional) is not a scum tell, nor is it a town-tell. It's a Human-tell.
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Spoiler: My Record for Mafiascum.net
#1. 5-2 Scum
#2. 3-6 Town
#3. 0-1 3rd Party
Archaebob
-
Hats off to Neil for some incredible town play.

Me=Weird
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When I read up, I was just amazed by neil. Awesome reads.
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Post Post #274 (ISO) » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:18 am

Post by DeltaWave »

1. Oh Neil, your appeals to emotion are so charming. Looks like you're down to calling me stupid now. Anyway, you said that anyone with half sense would "know where you're coming from." Don't try to weasel out of this.

2. Your case rests on the presumption that Fakhina is scum. That's why I don't buy it. Your points against me are laughable and I already responded to them.

3. If the town's not jumping down your throat, why are you acting so defensive?

4. You're trying to muddy the waters by being insulting. You're already scummy, freaking out and resorting to appeals to emotion doesn't help your case one bit.
When there's trouble, you call DW.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law; love is the Law, love under Will.
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