[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Junpei]

Jesters belong in Bastard games, and nowhere else.

You'll be eating your words soon enough.

enomis the problem with your setup is that town will never lynch; they'll just have their vig shoot people at night in proxy of the action of lynching. So fool can never really win until vig dies. The thing is though that with 2 dayshots and 2 night shots, fool will have such a slim margin of victory if at all due to vig-lynching.

So; we can conclude that open setups with vigs and fools do not work well. Dayvig is an interesting concept, but I don't think that even if you took away the vig that you would help the fools wincon enough with the dayvigs. I think that you should at least get rid of the town dayvig.

Also normal cops generally don't work with fool setups because cop inno on fool and the fool just lost the game. Mafia live and die with the 'hooker' (that's a roleblocker, right?).

Fool lynches should always end the game; deviation from that rule will not produce pleasant results almost always.

[Trevor]

Someone give your opinions on this:

1 cop
1 doctor
3 VTs
1 Miller
1 mafia roleblocker
1 cop-immune godfather
Day start

The miller is told he is a VT, but the cop will get a guilty result when investigating him. Miller will flip miller upon death. Any scum can submit the night kill. Cop-immune godfather will be investigated as innocent.

[enomis]

Jesters belong in Bastard games, and nowhere else.

You'll be eating your words soon enough.

enomis the problem with your setup is that town will never lynch; they'll just have their vig shoot people at night in proxy of the action of lynching. So fool can never really win until vig dies. The thing is though that with 2 dayshots and 2 night shots, fool will have such a slim margin of victory if at all due to vig-lynching.

So; we can conclude that open setups with vigs and fools do not work well. Dayvig is an interesting concept, but I don't think that even if you took away the vig that you would help the fools wincon enough with the dayvigs. I think that you should at least get rid of the town dayvig.

Also normal cops generally don't work with fool setups because cop inno on fool and the fool just lost the game. Mafia live and die with the 'hooker' (that's a roleblocker, right?).

Fool lynches should always end the game; deviation from that rule will not produce pleasant results almost always.

hmmm...true true. Alright. Thanks for all the replies. Coming up with setups was so fun. Gonna devise another soon. Thanks again.

[enomis]

Someone give your opinions on this:

1 cop
1 doctor
3 VTs
1 Miller
1 mafia roleblocker
1 cop-immune godfather
Day start

The miller is told he is a VT, but the cop will get a guilty result when investigating him. Miller will flip miller upon death. Any scum can submit the night kill. Cop-immune godfather will be investigated as innocent.

Shouldnt this be night start? Since usually day starts when there is a odd number of people?

[Junpei]

When a doctor is in the game, you can have day starts with even numbers. Besides; all games really should be day start.

As for the setup.. the miller just stands to waste a lynch, I mean how can town not lynch a confirmed cop guilty? with 2 MLs (possibly 3 if doc saves), the cop can really only be guaranteed 2 reports before LYLO; and if it's a guilty well then the miller makes it frustrating and a useless report; as unless the subject claims a PR, the report really has accomplished nothing. You'll never get the RB to claim a PR, so there really is no upside to a cop report. Innos are worthless as there is a GF.

There is no mechanic in that game that reliably can help town catch scum, and mafia have THREE methods to counter it.

[Whiskers]

Again, EpicMafia setups are unbalanced and do not work on MafiaScum.
Please stop trying to directly import EM setups to MS.

[Trevor]

When a doctor is in the game, you can have day starts with even numbers. Besides; all games really should be day start.

As for the setup.. the miller just stands to waste a lynch, I mean how can town not lynch a confirmed cop guilty? with 2 MLs (possibly 3 if doc saves), the cop can really only be guaranteed 2 reports before LYLO; and if it's a guilty well then the miller makes it frustrating and a useless report; as unless the subject claims a PR, the report really has accomplished nothing. You'll never get the RB to claim a PR, so there really is no upside to a cop report. Innos are worthless as there is a GF.

There is no mechanic in that game that reliably can help town catch scum, and mafia have THREE methods to counter it.

Assuming town just sits on their hands and doesn't scumhunt at all.

[Whiskers]

Since it's an open setup, it's

more

balanced-- but he's right. Unless you lynch the RB D1, and the Miller is Nightkilled N1--

the cop is useless. The newbie setup has

probably

a cop-- about 50% of the time. It also has One roleblocker. No Godfather.

In 2of4, there are 1 or 2 town PRs, and 1 scum PR-- the roleblocker counters everything, so it is always considered effective.
The cop is always useful, the doc is always useful, the Jailkeeper is always useful -- unless targetted by the RB.

But look. Your setup has three conditions under which the cop is not usefull.
The cop is not useful if:
He gets a guilty and the miller is still alive.
He gets an innocent and the Godfather is still alive.
He is targetted by the Roleblocker.

The doctor is useful unless targetted by the RB.

So basically, you've neutralized the cop (into being nothing more than a VT with a name), and then you gave the mafia

an extra PR!

2 town PRs vs 1 Scum PR was balanced, but your setup has become 2 town PRs vs

2 Scum PRs!

And that's only technically! In all reality,

unless

you lynch a scum (pr) day 1 and the Miller is killed at night, the setup is really just

1 Town PR, versus 2 Scum PRs!!!

Oh yeah, and the Newbie setup has

Nine

players-- that's Seven townies and two scum.

Your

setup has

Eight

players, being

Six

townies and two scum.

No, it's NOT balanced.

[Trevor]

The point of the setup is to scumhunt, not to rely on the cop for finding scum.

[Whiskers]

Then why put the cop in there at all?
What is the cop for, besides "finding scum"?

[izakthegoomba]

I'm with whiskers on this one, it's VERY scum-sided.

A 2:7 with no scum power needs about the same amount of town power as a 10:3 with no scum power.

You've got a 2:6. You need

more

town power than the above just because of the numbers, and the two scum PRs mean you will need

more than that many

extra town PRs.

And it shouldn't have a negative utility role. Or a Godfather.

Finally, you say the point is to scumhunt. Of course it is. That's the point of mafia. But if I put you into a 6:5 mountainous situation, do you think you could scumhunt your way out of it? No? Then obviously, there are limits.

[Whiskers]

I think now is a good time to suggest a setup;

1 No-Voting Fool

Fool wins if lynched.

I'd really like to see this one in play, though.

[izakthegoomba]

That again? Really?

[izakthegoomba]

And it's called a Jester!

[Whiskers]

Okay, okay-- Fool is faster to say, and I haven't played in a game with a Jester yet (although have played in several with a Fool-- ffffff yeah, these games were too slow so I went and joined EM. kill me).

[izakthegoomba]

*stabs Whiskers*

There's a reason you haven't seen a Jester yet.

[enomis]

Alright, heres the new setup(based on chess)

1king
1crown prince
2knights
1body double
1Revolutionary(NK immune)
2outlaws(1 role cop,1 goon)
1Queen(can veto a day lynch once)
1Bishop(if that day lynch is on him, no one would be lynched)
1Corrupted Bishop(if that day lynch in on him, no one would be lynched)
2Rook(they would have no power, but when both the knights die, they will replace the knights role)

King: Will send orders of who to kill each night to the knight,(this is via the king sending to the mod and the mod send the order to the two knights), however, the kings would not know who the knights are and the knights would not know who the kings are. (the knights then reply to the mod of them choosing to kill or not to kill the target.) So, for example if the target is one of the knights and on of the knights choose not to kill, no kill would happen that night. So Both must accept to kill before a kill would be carry out.(winning condition: revolutionary, outlaws and corrupted bishop eliminated)

Crown prince: Would have no power. But when king dies, the crown prince will become the king.(win cond: same as the king)

Body double: Can choose to dies in place of the king.He knows who the king is, and when the crown prince ascends the throne, he will also know who the new king is).However, he can only choose to die in place of the king 3 times.(not sure if i should make this unlimited)(that means he can only send the action of protecting the king to the mod twice)(win cond: same as the king)

1Queen: Veto a day lynch(win cond:same as the king)

1bishop: Would not be lynched if he is the lynched target. (win cond:same as the king)

1corrupted bishop: Would not be lynched if he is the lynched target.(win cond: king, prince and revolutionary eliminated)(however, he is not allowed to know the outlaws and not allowed ink the QT of the outlaw)

2outlaws: Simple. (win cond: king,prince and revolutionary eliminated)

1Revolutionary: (survive to the end). (cannot be night killed). Can kill one guy every night.

2rook: no power. Would assume the knights role when both knight dies.(win cond:same as the king)

What do you think? Any changes i should make or something? Because i was figuring whether more ppl would be needed in this setup because there are 3kills each night. LOL.

[Junpei]

The point of the setup is to scumhunt, not to rely on the cop for finding scum.

I see that you're under the epicmafia illusion.

Just because setups with good PRs in EM are all awful setups where you basically sit on your mom and wait for the clears and 50/50s to decide something, doesn't mean that setups with no good PRs is a great scumhunting setup. That is something you learn when you play on epicmafia and have all the bad night start setups and the bad PR-heavy setups.


enomis, your setup is really weird because of all the lynch-immune people. First off, if so many town and a mafia are lynch immune, you have so many back-ups that it's crazy, and basically this looks like a mass claim is the best option. I can't think of a claiming pattern for mafia that is good; so town should mass claim day 1, right?

[enomis]

The point of the setup is to scumhunt, not to rely on the cop for finding scum.

I see that you're under the epicmafia illusion.

Just because setups with good PRs in EM are all awful setups where you basically sit on your mom and wait for the clears and 50/50s to decide something, doesn't mean that setups with no good PRs is a great scumhunting setup. That is something you learn when you play on epicmafia and have all the bad night start setups and the bad PR-heavy setups.


enomis, your setup is really weird because of all the lynch-immune people. First off, if so many town and a mafia are lynch immune, you have so many back-ups that it's crazy, and basically this looks like a mass claim is the best option. I can't think of a claiming pattern for mafia that is good; so town should mass claim day 1, right?

What? no. Only one town and one mafia is lynch immune. And mafia only need to kill king,prince and revolutionary which is 3 ppl to win the game. So mass claim = town lose? No? And mafia can easily claim as a rook or a knight.

[izakthegoomba]

Why would newbies try to bring in botched ports of EM setups, anyway? In the seven months I've been here, I've suggested a grand total of two setups - one was a very slight adaption of an existing one in the hope of improving balance, and the other I had been thinking out for weeks - and I'm still not sure if it's fit to be run.

This chess mafia is overcomplicated and probably unbalanced - I won't pretend to know how or why it's tilted, but I'm pretty sure it is. And it's pretty swingy. It almost certainly doesn't belong in the Open Queue. If you really want to mod it, wait your time, get some modding experience, iron this setup out, add some pawns as townies, get it reviewed, and run it in a theme queue.

[Junpei]

wait.

mafia dont have to have majority?

[izakthegoomba]

Apparently so.

Also, he's gone and put in some kind of Serial Killer/Survivor spawn of satam himself. Almost certainly a bad thing.

[enomis]

Apparently so.

Also, he's gone and put in some kind of Serial Killer/Survivor spawn of satam himself. Almost certainly a bad thing.

? LOL. Overcomplicated? ok. Anyway, how do you guys make sure the setup is balanced? Is there a way other than to mod the game and test it out pratically? And why is the SK bad?

[IceGuy]

What do you think?

Easily broken by massclaim.

[izakthegoomba]

Iceguy is right.

The SK is bad because it's wincon doesn't require it to be the last player standing, just to be alive at the endgame.

No-vanilla or few-vanilla open games often fail, whether due to massclaim or something else.

And as for balancing, there's no definitive way of doing it. Different people have different methods, but there are multiple guides for game design and modding on the wiki. I don't claim to be some sort of expert in balancing (I'm a long, LONG way from that), but I can tell when a design is just bad.

I'm not saying this is complete trash, but it needs a lot of attention if it's ever going to get run, especially in the open queue.