Mini 1313: Blood Bowl Mafia (Game over)

[Glork]

Ghostlin: There are MANY more powerful abilities and players (no offense to pappums) who would have made better N1 kill targets. A one-shot delayed public davyig is NOT a very powerful role. And I stand by my statement that a delayed vig D1 is a terrible idea, because it gives us zero early-game benefit like a D1 lynch does, and it is no better-informed than a D1 lynch is.

Not a single person has even bothered to actually refute this point with any semblance of logic

, yet people (like kondi and you) keep asserting that using it D1 is a good idea. Slandaar, too, IIRC.

In fact, that pappums was even killed speaks an awful lot to the composition of this scumteam. They obviously felt that the one-shot vig was enough of a threat that it needed killed.

Tierce: I am also uncomfortable with the degree of flip-flop you've made on Ghostlin, but I wanted to hear from him first. I'll come out and say it, instead of any of this beating around the bush: Right now, I don't believe you have a damning/informative result on Ghostlin. The biggest beef I have with him is the manner in which he focused on kondi D1, and his positioning on the wagon/lynch. There WERE 1-2 scums on it (likely 2), and those slots probably come from [Slandaar, Ghostlin, Malee] (unless Tierce/Ghostlin are gambiting here).

Vote count

(10 players alive = 6 to lynch)
(3) Ghostlin – Tierce, Dazzy, PeregrineV
(1) Malee – Glork
(1) pizzadudes7 – Slandaar
(1) Tebow - Ghostlin

Not voting

: inte, Malee, Pizzadudes7, Tebow

Deadline

: Saturday 31 March 20:00 CET

[Glork]

EBWOP: Thinking on it, the pappumskill defiintely points to Slandaar and Ghostlin, because obviously they kept trying to convince me that using the kill D1 was a good idea, simply because it's a kill not controlled by scum. If either of them were the force behind the scum's nightkill, pappums becomes the top kill choice.

Unvote
Vote: Ghostlin

I'm okay with this wagon for now.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: Thinking on it, the pappumskill defiintely points to Slandaar and Ghostlin, because obviously they kept trying to convince me that using the kill D1 was a good idea, simply because it's a kill not controlled by scum. If either of them were the force behind the scum's nightkill, pappums becomes the top kill choice.

Unvote
Vote: Ghostlin

I'm okay with this wagon for now.

Because I'd completely announce my intentions for the bomb to get used and kill the bomb as an object lesson for you all because I was completely terrified of it. That's WIFOM. I was more concerned of an opportunity being passed up and getting more information from Pappums day/nightkill.

It's also worth noting, even though I'll just come out and say I didn't execute the Pappum's kill, that the kill flavor is completely different than the other kill executed that night.

[Glork]

The attitude of the scums who killed pappums is consistent with the opinions you've expressed in the thread. That's not WIFOM; it's a logical argument.

[Glork]

EBWOP: But since you complained about "the opportunity being passed up," I'll ask you the exact same question I asked Slandaar D1. Do you always use one-shot abilites D1/N1 because of the remote possibility you MIGHT be nightkilled?

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: But since you complained about "the opportunity being passed up," I'll ask you the exact same question I asked Slandaar D1. Do you always use one-shot abilites D1/N1 because of the remote possibility you MIGHT be nightkilled?

Yes. Examples of this are Secret Society Mafia, where I did use my Vig Kill of my JoAT night 1, and at least one other game where I shot Etherial Cookie and claimed it. (I always claim my NK as a limited shot Vig).

Why? A vig kill can tell you a lot about the player using it, and if you target someone that's not in the eye, sometimes you can catch inactive scum that way.

[Glork]

I think vig kills,

especially

limited-shot vig kills, should be used when you are most likely to hit scum. Getting killed without using it is generally better than making a poor kill choice on a protown player. It's obvious we have differing philosophies on the matter, but this difference in opinion does confirm my belief that as scum, you would value a PappumsKill over any other kill choice last night.

[Ghostlin]

I think vig kills,

especially

limited-shot vig kills, should be used when you are most likely to hit scum. Getting killed without using it is generally better than making a poor kill choice on a protown player. It's obvious we have differing philosophies on the matter, but this difference in opinion does confirm my belief that as scum, you would value a PappumsKill over any other kill choice last night.

It's still WIFOMIC, particularly since from a third party observer's stand point, you could be scum making the precise reasoning and set up the pappum's kill for this precise reason. More so since I'm really not convinced that PR was killed by a scum team.

[Slandaar]

Glork explain why Pizza is town

[Slandaar]

also no, it wasnt RVS, reasoning was... unique to the current situation. Might explain it later.

[Pizzadudes7]

also no, it wasnt RVS, reasoning was... unique to the current situation. Might explain it later.

Might?

[Glork]

If you look at his interactions with Tierce yesterday, while he got a bit mixed up, his words ring very genuine. He's def a gobbo on our team. :V

[Glork]

I think vig kills,

especially

limited-shot vig kills, should be used when you are most likely to hit scum. Getting killed without using it is generally better than making a poor kill choice on a protown player. It's obvious we have differing philosophies on the matter, but this difference in opinion does confirm my belief that as scum, you would value a PappumsKill over any other kill choice last night.

It's still WIFOMIC, particularly since from a third party observer's stand point, you could be scum making the precise reasoning and set up the pappum's kill for this precise reason. More so since I'm really not convinced that PR was killed by a scum team.

So you're suggesting that a vig killed the town vig?


Yeah. Good luck convincing anyone of THAT one.

[Glork]

Also, some self-meta for Ghostlin. If I'm scum, I don't kill a claimed one-shot vig. I convince the vig to kill a protown player. I'd be hunting REAL power roles if I were scum.

My opinion of your kill choice is a standard conclusion drawn from observations. Your only defense is to try to turn it into WIFOM, and that isn't going to work on me, especially considering you were already on my list BEFORE I decided that the pappumskill pointed to you.

[Ghostlin]

I think vig kills,

especially

limited-shot vig kills, should be used when you are most likely to hit scum. Getting killed without using it is generally better than making a poor kill choice on a protown player. It's obvious we have differing philosophies on the matter, but this difference in opinion does confirm my belief that as scum, you would value a PappumsKill over any other kill choice last night.

It's still WIFOMIC, particularly since from a third party observer's stand point, you could be scum making the precise reasoning and set up the pappum's kill for this precise reason. More so since I'm really not convinced that PR was killed by a scum team.

So you're suggesting that a vig killed the town vig?


Yeah. Good luck convincing anyone of THAT one.

Did I actually, anywhere say this? And are you aware that a SK can still exist in a mini?

[Ghostlin]

Also, some self-meta for Ghostlin. If I'm scum, I don't kill a claimed one-shot vig. I convince the vig to kill a protown player. I'd be hunting REAL power roles if I were scum.

My opinion of your kill choice is a standard conclusion drawn from observations. Your only defense is to try to turn it into WIFOM, and that isn't going to work on me, especially considering you were already on my list BEFORE I decided that the pappumskill pointed to you.

Where is this 'list' you mention Day 1, you didn't voice suspicion of me that I saw on my read-through of the first day. You did voice suspicion of other players, Day 1, so that's a matter of record, but you've said you think I'm scum with little previous onerous as to why except I thought we could get an extra lynch through the bomb and I somewhat disagreed with the 'don't use the bomb' posts you made Day 1 (I thought that PR might of died with the bomb)?

Why did you accuse Tierce of flip-flopping from her read on me Day 1 when you yourself are creating a scum read you've never shown interest in previous to this point?

Why are you presuming that Disappeared equals Town Vig, and not SK? Do you believe scum had more than one kill last night?

To the other people on this wagon: Examine the reasoning that Glork and Tierce is putting in front of you. One of them is using the WIFOM that I might of eliminated a kill I couldn't control as scum as their sole reasoning, and they've both mysteriously had reasons arise that I'm scum.

[Glork]

I think vig kills,

especially

limited-shot vig kills, should be used when you are most likely to hit scum. Getting killed without using it is generally better than making a poor kill choice on a protown player. It's obvious we have differing philosophies on the matter, but this difference in opinion does confirm my belief that as scum, you would value a PappumsKill over any other kill choice last night.

It's still WIFOMIC, particularly since from a third party observer's stand point, you could be scum making the precise reasoning and set up the pappum's kill for this precise reason. More so since I'm really not convinced that PR was killed by a scum team.

So you're suggesting that a vig killed the town vig?


Yeah. Good luck convincing anyone of THAT one.

Did I actually, anywhere say this? And are you aware that a SK can still exist in a mini?

Kill coming from an SK doesn't change the fact that the kill still implicates you/Slandaar. I'm well aware that there's a decent chance you're an SK. I assumed you were talking about a vigkill, because talking about an SK kill

DOESN'T FUCKING CHANGE THE FACT THAT IT MAKES YOU MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM

.

Where is this 'list' you mention Day 1, you didn't voice suspicion of me that I saw on my read-through of the first day.

At start of day (Post 9), I said you/Malee were the play. It wasn't until Post 26 that I thought "hmm, kill implicates Ghostlin/Slandaar." I never said anything about having a list D1, champ. But I DID voice suspicion of you before the nightkill thing came up.


And this:

One of them is using the WIFOM that I might of eliminated a kill I couldn't control as scum as their sole reasoning, and they've both mysteriously had reasons arise that I'm scum.

is a blatant misrepresentation. In Post 25, I flatly stated that I didn't like the focus you put on Kondi or the manner in which you hopped his wagon. I even RESTATED that you were a target of mine BEFORE the kill reasoning.

Less strawmanning and making shit up. More claiming and dying. kthx.

[Glork]

EBWOP: In fact, if you're an SK, that even

BETTER

explains why you'd want to nightkill pappums before he could use his ability. And it partially explains the Tierce change-of-heart.

Yeah. Ghostlin dies today.

[Ghostlin]

In Post 25, I flatly stated that I didn't like the focus you put on Kondi or the manner in which you hopped his wagon. I even RESTATED that you were a target of mine BEFORE the kill reasoning.

That's not what post #25 says,

champ

. Here's what post #25 says:

Ghostlin: There are MANY more powerful abilities and players (no offense to pappums) who would have made better N1 kill targets. A one-shot delayed public davyig is NOT a very powerful role. And I stand by my statement that a delayed vig D1 is a terrible idea, because it gives us zero early-game benefit like a D1 lynch does, and it is no better-informed than a D1 lynch is. Not a single person has even bothered to actually refute this point with any semblance of logic, yet people (like kondi and you) keep asserting that using it D1 is a good idea. Slandaar, too, IIRC.

In fact, that pappums was even killed speaks an awful lot to the composition of this scumteam. They obviously felt that the one-shot vig was enough of a threat that it needed killed.

Tierce: I am also uncomfortable with the degree of flip-flop you've made on Ghostlin, but I wanted to hear from him first. I'll come out and say it, instead of any of this beating around the bush: Right now, I don't believe you have a damning/informative result on Ghostlin. The biggest beef I have with him is the manner in which he focused on kondi D1, and his positioning on the wagon/lynch. There WERE 1-2 scums on it (likely 2), and those slots probably come from [Slandaar, Ghostlin, Malee] (unless Tierce/Ghostlin are gambiting here).[/quote]

It mentions nothing about your displeasure about me joining Kondi's wagon. In fact, you say here you hated how Kondi argued with you without a semblance of logic---except Kondi's dead and obv town--so what gives, Glork?

However, directly lying in thread and soft attack without doing anything about Tierce are both noted here.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: In fact the end of #41 is more hilarious considering you quoted yourself saying something you didn't say. I could say I claimed I always believed you were scum on the same damn onerous you believed in thread: you could be very well encouraging PR not to use the kill so you could kill him Night 1.

[Ghostlin]

Acutally, I'll just do this.

Unvote.

Vote: Glork

For lying to the entire thread.

[Tierce]

Tierce: I am also uncomfortable with the degree of flip-flop you've made on Ghostlin, but I wanted to hear from him first.

I went from calling him town on a rushed vengekill reaction on D1 to calling him scum on D2. This is not flip-flopping, it's pretty standard procedure when you have a night result, and overnight 180s are perfectly normal due to flips. What on earth, Glork.

I'll come out and say it, instead of any of this beating around the bush: Right now, I don't believe you have a damning/informative result on Ghostlin.

However, this is correct:

Yeah,

b

ut

now

you can compare the styles; I

l

ike playing town, which makes a world of difference--acting

u

nafraid as scum is something I can't really do (yet). I'm

f

rantic and cowardly as scum; Igive

f

uckall about my continued survival as town (living to endgame? what is it?). /pointless self-meta remarks

It doesn't change the fact that I am convinced Ghostlin is scum. I

did

think he was town during D1, which was probably helped along by his tendency to jump on everything that remotely came up against me. However, these things also stink of scum buddying up to town:

Did you read 37 and 46. It's required reading this game. Get your vote off Tierce.

This is the second time I've read when you've called someone's reason (directly or indirectly) shitty without giving an exact reason why you believe it is. How is Tierce, in your opinion, conjuring up a reason to attack Majiffy? Why isn't the two quotes I mentioned earlier NOT cognitive dissonance, or talking out of both sides of the mouth for kondi? Why do you believe these things are NOT valid reasons for both Tierce and I to believe what we do?

[Tierce, check my meta]

during the night then because you're reading me all wrong if you think I'm scum.

Meta me is a piss poor defense. Just saying.

I even commented on this:

Ghostlin, by now you should know I'm town, but I can fight my own battles, k? Back off.

I've seen you go all "oh I'd be okay with a pseudo policy lynch on D1" as

scum

, Ghostlin.


I heavily implied I had an incriminating result on you. I've seen town reacting to false-guilty results on them from people they believe are town.¹ You believe I'm town (even worse, you use the wording "I

know

you're town"), so I'd have no reason to lie. There are a number of reasons that could cause me to actually have an unreliable result in a mini theme, but instead you immediately called me a liar ("you're blowing smoke out of your ass" and "you're obviously incredibly talking out of both sides of your mouth")

while still calling me town

.

Town who is false-guiltied by someone they believe is town usually goes "wtf is going on".¹ You called me a liar, made no mention of the possibility I was gambiting, made no mention of sanities being in play. And still named me town.

This is what MoI would call cognitive dissonance, scum.

Look, there are two reasons I want the bomb:

1. I'll likely be lynched if I don't get it, and would like a chance of scum dying today.
2. I want pappams to prove his role.

1 is an AtE and pretty bad reasoning--if you're town, you have more a reason to scumhunt and maximize the dual lynch possibility, also we don't know much about the bomb yet--pappums, you need to get in here and explain about when the bomb detonates, if it's passable, does it end the day if the bomb goes off, etc. If the bomb ends the day that that's not happening. If it's passable, then there's no guarantee it'll end up where we want it. If it doesn't detonate until Day 3 then we're not getting maximum utility out of it (but we might as well use it now).

2 makes me go 'Why?'. If this is a fake claim of a one shot kill, scum will get rid of it mostly because they don't control it and the longer the game drags the more likely scum will be left of the prisoner's dilemma of getting rid of a powerful Town one-shot role they know about or ridding them of a player that has the chance to be dangerous in the Day.

This is arguing just to prove that kondi was wrong in his reasoning. It's the kind of arguing that scum does--not to understand someone's alignment, but to win an argument.

EBWOP: Thinking on it, the pappumskill defiintely points to Slandaar and Ghostlin, because obviously they kept trying to convince me that using the kill D1 was a good idea, simply because it's a kill not controlled by scum. If either of them were the force behind the scum's nightkill, pappums becomes the top kill choice.

Unvote
Vote: Ghostlin

I'm okay with this wagon for now.

Because I'd completely announce my intentions for the bomb to get used and kill the bomb as an object lesson for you all because I was completely terrified of it. That's WIFOM. I was more concerned of an opportunity being passed up and getting more information from Pappums day/nightkill.

No, it's not WIFOM. What

you

are doing is WIFOM, Glork is doing nightkill analysis.


In Post 30, Ghostlin has effectively given up any chance of claiming vig in this game.

Acutally, I'll just do this.

Unvote.

Vote: Glork

For lying to the entire thread.

Sounds fake.

Post 44 is more arguing for the sake of arguing, especially because:

In Post 25, I flatly stated that I didn't like the focus you put on Kondi or the manner in which you hopped his wagon. I even RESTATED that you were a target of mine BEFORE the kill reasoning.

That's not what post #25 says,

champ

. Here's what post #25 says:

Ghostlin: There are MANY more powerful abilities and players (no offense to pappums) who would have made better N1 kill targets. A one-shot delayed public davyig is NOT a very powerful role. And I stand by my statement that a delayed vig D1 is a terrible idea, because it gives us zero early-game benefit like a D1 lynch does, and it is no better-informed than a D1 lynch is. Not a single person has even bothered to actually refute this point with any semblance of logic, yet people (like kondi and you) keep asserting that using it D1 is a good idea. Slandaar, too, IIRC.

In fact, that pappums was even killed speaks an awful lot to the composition of this scumteam. They obviously felt that the one-shot vig was enough of a threat that it needed killed.

Tierce: I am also uncomfortable with the degree of flip-flop you've made on Ghostlin, but I wanted to hear from him first. I'll come out and say it, instead of any of this beating around the bush: Right now, I don't believe you have a damning/informative result on Ghostlin.

The biggest beef I have with him is the manner in which he focused on kondi D1, and his positioning on the wagon/lynch.

There WERE 1-2 scums on it (likely 2), and those slots probably come from [Slandaar, Ghostlin, Malee] (unless Tierce/Ghostlin are gambiting here).

It mentions nothing about your displeasure about me joining Kondi's wagon. In fact, you say here you hated how Kondi argued with you without a semblance of logic---except Kondi's dead and obv town--so what gives, Glork?

However, directly lying in thread and soft attack without doing anything about Tierce are both noted here.

See the

red

(color added by me). Glork did not lie.

---

EBWOP: In fact, if you're an SK, that even

BETTER

explains why you'd want to nightkill pappums before he could use his ability.

And it partially explains the Tierce change-of-heart.

Explain. Because the only way this seems to make sense with you thinking I

don't

have a guilty on him is if you think I'm mafia and Ghostlin is SK.

---

^{1 Recent example in the Vanillaside by kondi, who was false-guiltied by a supposedly confirmed cop who turned out to be scum.}

[Glork]

Tierce beat me to it, but I didn't lie at all.
You're better than this, Ghostlin, regardless of what alignment you are. What gives? Do you typically flail this uselessly as town under pressure?

Tierce: I have considered exactly that possibility. As I indicated earlier, I have also considered the possibility that you and Ghostlin are scum together and that this was some sort of gambit.
At any rate, an SK is more concerned about a Vig than any other role ability (unless they are NK-immune). I think it's an avenue worth pursuing.

[Tierce]

EBWOP: In fact, if you're an SK, that even

BETTER

explains why you'd want to nightkill pappums before he could use his ability.

And it partially explains the Tierce change-of-heart.

Explain. Because the only way this seems to make sense with you thinking I

don't

have a guilty on him is if you think I'm mafia and Ghostlin is SK.

Tierce: I have considered exactly that possibility. As I indicated earlier, I have also considered the possibility that you and Ghostlin are scum together and that this was some sort of gambit.

Ghostlin: There are MANY more powerful abilities and players (no offense to pappums) who would have made better N1 kill targets. A one-shot delayed public davyig is NOT a very powerful role. [snip] In fact, that pappums was even killed speaks an awful lot to the composition of this scumteam. They obviously felt that the one-shot vig was enough of a threat that it needed killed.

...I feel somewhat insulted to be considered a potential part of this scumteam.

[Johoohno]

Vote count

(10 players alive = 6 to lynch)
(4) Ghostlin – Tierce, Dazzy, PeregrineV, Glork
(1) pizzadudes7 – Slandaar
(1) Glork - Ghostlin

Not voting

: inte, Malee, Pizzadudes7, Tebow

Deadline

: Saturday 31 March 20:00 CET