Mini 1320--Redwall Mafia: Spirit Lore (The Sun Has Set)


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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:33 am

Post by Junpei »

evidence of newman defending bv: he unvoted from bv's wagon and told people not to vote him

Korlash you make assumptions all the time, please accept that fact and don't make me write an essay for you on the subject. All assumptions spawn from something. It's not like I'm assuming that griggal grog grog is rather plump; because how the fuck could I assume something like that? That'd be unfounded. A founded assumption is "X did action T, so I think X would/is P". That's all that is needed, and is all you and every other player uses. When discussing something as big as alignment though, we use SET T, as in many actions, some of those actions are P; as in they are backed by premises and assumptions spawned from things which falsely call themselves T in the second plane.

Your argument with rat is semantic and you guys are completely misunderstanding each other... please stop.

Korlash, if you're about to claim that rats' actions came from town, then why haven't you read any of rats' previous games? That's an unfounded assumption! But no seriously just accept what I'm saying earlier in this post because this is MD which I see no holes in.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:38 am

Post by Korlash »

Jun wrote:evidence of newman defending bv: he unvoted from bv's wagon and told people not to vote him


Did he say "don't vote BV" or did he say "L-2 this early is bad"? One might constitute a pure defense, the other does not...

Jun wrote:Korlash, if you're about to claim that rats' actions came from town, then why haven't you read any of rats' previous games? That's an unfounded assumption! But no seriously just accept what I'm saying earlier in this post because this is MD which I see no holes in.


Pshh, I don't intend to use meta to attack him so I don't see a point in reading his past games. You're not seriously trying to strawman my arguments again are you? *wags finger* You silly bugger...
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:44 am

Post by Junpei »

You're frustrating, Korlash.

The implicit meaning of "L-2 this early is bad" when L-2 is achieved is "don't vote BV".

You are assuming that rat acts as scum the way that you associate with scuminess.
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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:04 am

Post by DarthYoshi »

Day One, Vote Count the Eighth


Zdenek (1): riceballtail
iStark (1): vijay2vasandani
Junpei (2): PeregrineV, hiplop
PeregrineV (3): pappums rat, Junpei, Zdenek
pappums rat (1): Korlash
Korlash (1): quadz08
Not Voting (1): iStark

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch and 5 to no-lynch.

iStark replaces HellloooNewman, effective immediately. As such, the deadline is being reset to expire 72 hours from this post, at 3:00 pm PDT (GMT-7) on Friday, April 6.

As ever, any questions or concerns, please let me know.
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:11 am

Post by Korlash »

Jun wrote:You're frustrating, Korlash.

The implicit meaning of "L-2 this early is bad" when L-2 is achieved is "don't vote BV".

You are assuming that rat acts as scum the way that you associate with scuminess.


No, that's the side effect. It's defending by proxy, which is not defending a player. The implicit meaning of "L-2 is bad this early" is literally "guys, why are we at L-2 already?"

And I suppose I am, hence why I am discussing with him and inspecting my assumptions. I am looking for evidence to support those assumptions not just pushing him as scum because I say so.
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:14 am

Post by Korlash »

Evidence that he defended BV would be something like "I think BV is town" or some post from BV that in turn 'defends' Newman either directly or indirectly since that would show possible partner links. You could show other proxies where he actually argues against attacks made towards BV(where he in some way poses or suggests a defense), instead of just arguing against the wagon.

Anything like this would support the assumption, Newman was Defending BV. But I have not seen anything of the sort.
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:03 pm

Post by Zdenek »

Peregrine's response to Junpei looks legit. Although maybe a bit meta heavy.

I don't find Korlash's case on V2V compelling.

Korlash has too many scum reads. However, his read on Newman makes sense considering his scum reads, but the fact that he is an argument like this before flips is pretty lame.

I do not find Korlash's vv case compelling. In fact the only one that I think holds any water is the one on Ghostin.

Korlash wrote:
I am wondering why you took two different questions and tried to say it made them ingenuous. Questioning Rat why Newman's stance was scummy and wanting to know Newman's reasoning more clearly are in no way the same issue.

When Junpei questions Rat, he is subtly defending Newman, and he questions Newman, he subtly attacking him. Add to that the fact that meta says scum Junpei does things like this, and it's cause to be concerned.

Korlash wrote:There is possible scum intent in what he did but no one has actually shown any of it to be likely. Other than saying "He could be doing this..." No one has shown why what Newman did actually came from scum. Everyone just assumes that since he won't give a valid reason town would do it, the attacks are justified, and they are not. It is the responsibility of the attacker to prove the person is scum before the person has to prove their innocence. No one has done this, so focusing on Newman's lack of town proof is wrong and only furthers to suggest the wagon actually has scum on it.


Oh come on. On day one, there is never a person proved to be scum. Asking for that is bullshit. Newman did something where there identifiable scum intent. He said that it's his play-style and that he can find examples of him playing like this. I'm happy to admit that if this is a point of view that he can demonstrate that he holds in general, that it would mean that him doing it is irrelevant to his alignment, but without that, the attacks on him are legitimate.

Korlash wrote:
]quote="Z-Something"]Junpei's questions make it seem like he is just trying to cause trouble.
-

Case in fucking point, "His questions could be scummy but I won't say why, thus I can't be wrong!!!!!!" lolololol Backup your attacks mate.[/quote]
I'll explain anything that you want.

Korlash wrote:*sigh* you seem to be playing both sides... But you did take a solid stance on Newman, more or less... getting a fractured and uneasy town vibe at the moment.

I really have to wonder why you attacked my views on Junpei, when you apparently agreed with them.

Korlash wrote:See i already covered this with my "undefendable logic" sarcasm. We've lost too many games to be able to actually look at Newman's meta. So

He said he could link to offsite games.

Anyway

Unvote
Vote Quadz
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:25 pm

Post by hiplop »

ah, im enjoying this game, but im playing like a fucking 9 year old :P

Korlash is pretty obv town, IMO.
\
Junpei I can't quite read. Seems more open than usual, when he posts. But hes also lurking...argh
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:49 pm

Post by Junpei »

Ugh, Korlash!

You.
Me.
Mafia Discussion.
After this game is done.
I'll make the thread; you will learn.

For now, I read you as town as I read myself in past town games when I read from an objective standpoint (which is pretty darn town). I am just going to let you run around and use your methods, I'll just watch for consistency from your point of view. V2V isn't scum to me, neither is pappums rat, you won't convince me the way you're going about it and I've convinced myself of the negation.

Hiplop, I have more posts in this game than anyone, I'm not lurking.

Zdnenek why the change in vote?
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:58 pm

Post by hiplop »

i dont know what to believe anymore
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:04 pm

Post by pappums rat »

Korlash, you are a serious pain in the ass.

Korlash wrote:
rat wrote:1. Yes, that is right you never said you disagreed with it, but you were making assumptions about it before you properly looked into it.


So you admit you lied in an attempt to discredit my character... tsk tsk tsk... We were so close to a breakthrough here!

This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I was saying here and you know it. I was admitting I was wrong about that and clarifying what you were saying here.

hiplop wrote:ah, im enjoying this game, but im playing like a fucking 9 year old :P

Korlash is pretty obv town, IMO.
\
Junpei I can't quite read. Seems more open than usual, when he posts. But hes also lurking...argh

Wow hiplop, thanks for all that content! There is a shitload to comment on, this game is really moving now. Come on bro, get into this game and start delivering!
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:13 pm

Post by Junpei »

Oh god I just realized hiplops' avatar was a gif. Hiplop, you know who L is right?

Here's the difference between you and L: L looks at everything and comes to no viable conclusions, and then from his enviable conclusions, he makes confident and calculated moves which uncover details which allow him to make accurate suggestions.

You on the other hand look at everything (or maybe you haven't even done that), come to no viable conclusions, and quit. Look at the evidence, and hit the ground running, you'll find more details that way. Just don't do things to do things, do things because you know what you want to happen next. I know you can, because I've seen you do it before in previous games. In Bizzarro mafia you didn't do this, and as a result we lost. If you are town, learn from your mistakes and correct yourself.
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:31 pm

Post by Zdenek »

Junpei, I'm voting quads because I think that slot has the best chance of being scum.
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:40 pm

Post by Korlash »

Whoa... Did things just get real... Ls got nothing on Near...

can't wait for the Korlash+Ice cream discussion... "Korlash with Ice-Cream would destroy everything and make the children happy, you however..." ha ha ha...

Oh man, that makes me giggle...

Jun wrote:I'll make the thread; you will learn.


Deal, but smarter men have tried and failed to learn up some learning...

Z-Something wrote:I don't find Korlash's case on V2V compelling.


I know, you said it twice ;_;

Z-Something wrote:When Junpei questions Rat, he is subtly defending Newman, and he questions Newman, he subtly attacking him. Add to that the fact that meta says scum Junpei does things like this, and it's cause to be concerned.


So he is attacking both players? Kind of like how good scum hunting is done. Were either questions invalid? Was the defense of Newman the obvious 'intent' of his questions toward rat? Am I not allowed to question anyone for fear of defending another? My god man... how will I ever find the scum...

Z-Someting wrote:Oh come on. On day one, there is never a person proved to be scum. Asking for that is bullshit. Newman did something where there identifiable scum intent. He said that it's his play-style and that he can find examples of him playing like this. I'm happy to admit that if this is a point of view that he can demonstrate that he holds in general, that it would mean that him doing it is irrelevant to his alignment, but without that, the attacks on him are legitimate.


Really, the day one argument? You're the type of person to hang scumhunting in favor of cop investigations aren't you?

So he admits he can find examples. Did anyone ask for them? You admit they would change the outlook of his play and he says he has them... Why was there no clamor for them to be presented? Are you asking that even though you know there is evidence somewhere that may or may not exaunerate him... you're going to continue thinking he is scum until someone sets it on your lap?

Z-Something wrote:I'll explain anything that you want.


Then... Why... didn't you? I mean, why tell me you'll explain it instead of just explaining it?

Rat wrote:Korlash, you are a serious pain in the ass.


Aye sir. *salutes*

Rat wrote:This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I was saying here and you know it. I was admitting I was wrong about that and clarifying what you were saying here.


Not really, saying I disagreed with you without actually reading it, TWICE, implies a big discredit to me. The fact you would bring it up more than once sorta suggest you actually read it somewhere. Saying "oops, I was wrong" certainly allows me a slight quip in your direction sir. =3
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:42 pm

Post by Korlash »

Z-Something wrote:Junpei, I'm voting quads because I think that slot has the best chance of being scum.


Why?
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:05 pm

Post by Zdenek »

Korlash wrote:So he is attacking both players? Kind of like how good scum hunting is done. Were either questions invalid? Was the defense of Newman the obvious 'intent' of his questions toward rat? Am I not allowed to question anyone for fear of defending another? My god man... how will I ever find the scum...

No. He's not attacking both players. The questions are not "invalid" but they aren't exactly compatible. The rest of this is a bizarre exaggeration.

Korlash wrote:Really, the day one argument? You're the type of person to hang scumhunting in favor of cop investigations aren't you?

So he admits he can find examples. Did anyone ask for them? You admit they would change the outlook of his play and he says he has them... Why was there no clamor for them to be presented? Are you asking that even though you know there is evidence somewhere that may or may not exaunerate him... you're going to continue thinking he is scum until someone sets it on your lap?

No.

I can't make someone post. Newman said that he'd look up the posts a week ago. Since that day, he's posted twice - once to say he was busy and once to request replacement.


Korlash wrote:Then... Why... didn't you? I mean, why tell me you'll explain it instead of just explaining it?

I'm not going to explain things to you that you understand, as is made clear by your own comments about Junpei.

Korlash wrote:
Z-Something wrote:Junpei, I'm voting quads because I think that slot has the best chance of being scum.


Why?


Zdenek wrote:When it comes to Ghostlin, while I don't find fault with his vote on BV. I do find fault with the fact that he padded his argument, by talking about having a 1:1 vote:post ratio being suspicious, Early in the game this is incredibly common, His concern over someone self-hammering is overwrought, He directs people to look at Vijay without saying why, which could be scum trying to get people to do his dirty work for him. I could back a quadz lynch at this point.


Plus what you had to say.
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:13 pm

Post by Korlash »

Z-Something wrote:No. He's not attacking both players. The questions are not "invalid" but they aren't exactly compatible. The rest of this is a bizarre exaggeration.


Not really. Simply questioning a person says nothing about your intentions nor your feelings towards them. For instance, I think Jun is town yet I hardly fail to scrutinize anything he writes for fear I am wrong. You cannot allow yourself to direct your questions solely towards one individual otherwise your chances for victory get cut considerably. Unless you find fault with his questioning it's hardly an astute observation calling them ingenuous.

Z-Something wrote:I can't make someone post. Newman said that he'd look up the posts a week ago. Since that day, he's posted twice - once to say he was busy and once to request replacement.


So they were asked for? Brilliant! An actual argument to my assertions! This game is shipping up!

Z-Something wrote:Plus what you had to say.


Right... The Ghostlin stuff... *scratches chin* Can't argue with that.
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:18 pm

Post by vijay2vasandani »

Pappum's rat and Junpei could you also present a concise case on Peregrine? It's kinda hard looking through all of Korlash's posts.

Despite all that, Korlash is uber confirmation biased town.

I don't know if I'm mixing these up but I'm playing another game with hiplop but he doesn't feel too different and I sincerely doubt he's scum in both.
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:29 pm

Post by Junpei »

PeregrineV opportunistically voted me (I had a vote on me, more than his other vote, hiplop had just voted him) and upon further inspection, he had no reason to do so other than 'gut'. The Peregrine I remember doesn't rely completely on gut. Peregrine never expressed gut read, if anything implying a read based on evidence given his past posts not being of gut nature. Peregrine then came up with explanation for the vote from a number of days ago only after explanation was requested by me (by the way, 3 of the 4 posts he cites for finding me suspicious came AFTER he voted me, and all four of them are based on meta when we've only played in one game together). He isn't scumhunting; furthermore he has shown that he isn't reading the thread at all closely, missing many apparent details.
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:34 pm

Post by Korlash »

jun wrote:(by the way, 3 of the 4 posts he cites for finding me suspicious came AFTER he voted me, and all four of them are based on meta when we've only played in one game together).


Oh snap, how did I miss that... Jun, you sir should talk more words of wisdom to us huddled masses...

But... that being said...:
Jun wrote:The Peregrine I remember doesn't rely completely on gut


The Peargrin you remember... from that one game sir? Don't you think it's a bit off for you to attack his points for unreasonable meta when you are attacking him using meta as well? Can you link said game?
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:31 pm

Post by Riceballtail »

Post 231 reeks of scum not wanting to really be on the wagon, but having been on it to look like he was pushing it. Either knowing it was a mislynch or that he wanted to look like he put pressure on his partner.
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:50 pm

Post by Junpei »

Korlash, I regress, Peregrine and I have shared two games. However both games were

1) Large themes
2) town games for me

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19396
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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18300
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I did a little research on Peregrine before asserting that he didn't use gut, that's how I know. Peregrines' ambiguous comments on my playstyle aren't that simple.
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:22 pm

Post by hiplop »

Whoa... Did things just get real... Ls got nothing on Near...

Rinse your mouth out now!

You on the other hand look at everything (or maybe you haven't even done that), come to no viable conclusions, and quit. Look at the evidence, and hit the ground running, you'll find more details that way. Just don't do things to do things, do things because you know what you want to happen next. I know you can, because I've seen you do it before in previous games. In Bizzarro mafia you didn't do this, and as a result we lost. If you are town, learn from your mistakes and correct yourself.

Yeah, unfortunately im a very uneven player. Can be very good, but a lot of times I get into spells like this where im complete crap.

I don't know if I'm mixing these up but I'm playing another game with hiplop but he doesn't feel too different and I sincerely doubt he's scum in both.

Kinda losing love of mafia, plus ive been very busy. Equates to a lazy piece of shit hiplop. Trying to get more into it, however.
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:43 pm

Post by quadz08 »

Hiplop – Mostly useless; almost entirely unreadable. Solid D1 lynch material if no one particularly scummy comes along. Vigbait otherwise.

Junpei – A bit abrasive, but is also very active. He’s a townread.

Korlash – Ridiculous amounts of postings. He’s just as useless and unreadable as hiplop, for exactly the opposite reason. It’s a whole bunch of data, and almost zero information. Not to mention, I don’t understand how he can post a million things, and still not know basic information (yes, in fact, Newman
was
asked to present his meta) that relates directly to his cases / opinions. As I mentioned before, I don’t believe than town-BV would have placed a vote on Newman when he did, due to how weak the reasoning behind that wagon is. Scumread, and anti-town at the very best. Excellent lynch candidate.

Pappum – Though his read on Newman is wrong, he reads as townish to me. Active, intelligent, and posting useful, concise content. :thumbsup:

Peregrine – I’m reading him as null. He makes good points occasionally, but he seems not terribly useful.

Riceballtail – Not the most active player, but her points are good thus far. I’d like to see a bit more content, but she’s a townread for now.

Vijay – This guy is also a good lynch choice; he doesn’t seem terribly helpful, and his first three votes jump out at me like a cat jumps at a laser pointer. Random vote on BV, serious vote on RBT,
back to random vote on BV
. WTF. Scummy.

Zdenek – He started off scummy, but got townier as I read. Good contribution / responses by the end. Townish.

iStark – Eh. Newman has a different opinion on things. Not scummy. Just different (and, IMO, wrong but understandable). I read him as null, as the entirety of his posts were him defending himself from attacks on his L2 opinons.

All of that said, I’m going to leave my vote where it is. Just so you all know, I’m not the most verbose of players. However, when I feel strongly about something, I will be a motherfucking WARRIOR about it. And right now, I feel pretty strongly that Korlash, hiplop, or Vijay need to be the lynch today.
Current Avatar: Kronk. Duh.
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Junpei
Junpei
Jack of All Trades
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Junpei
Jack of All Trades
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Joined: June 24, 2011

Post Post #249 (ISO) » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:50 pm

Post by Junpei »

Korlash is too misled and committed to be scum I think. Why do you think that the RBT vote by V2V was serious again? Hiplop is a good policy lynch and vigbait yes, but I would rather not policy lynch.

Explain why you don't like my Peregrine case?
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA41ggsdeXE
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