Open 387: Jungle Republic (Day 6 - ends in a Town Victory)

[Thomith]

i am saying he is flailing all over the place, he is saying i am scum for agreeing with slandaar but the only time in which i did it he said he still thought i was town for it.
and i am not freaking out sorry to disappoint.

[Ravel]

Day 1 Vote Count

Slandaar (3): Kassadin, Chrimi, drmyshotgun
Thomith (1): TheXfactor557
Om of the Nom (3): LBJ, Slandaar, Thomith
kondi2424 (2): vijay2vasandani, Om of the Nom
asher1611 (1): kondi2424

Not Voting (2): BagSquad, asher1611

There are 12 players alive, which means it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline in

(expired on 2012-04-16 09:00:00)

(April 16, 9:00 AM EDT or 1:00 PM GMT)

One Week left until end of Day 1!

As of Post #325

Prodding TheXFactor557

[Om of the Nom]

@v2v: I started playing mafia when I was 12. I just don't learn the fastest :V Plus my birthday is in March (22nd) and I started around August, so there isn't too much time in between.

@Thomith: I am not OMGUS'ing you at all. I think you are the one who is reaching instead of me. You are starting to sound like Slandaar's buttbuddy :V Agreeing with someone a couple of times is fine, but now it's just too much.


My vote currently being on kondi is doing nothing right now.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Slandaar

[Thomith]

can you show me every time where i agreed with slandaar, saying i keep agreeing with him but giving no examples is giving me no way to defend myself which is anti-town, also i only see one time where i did this so i would like to see other examples.

[Om of the Nom]

Well I don't always mean "agreeing" but more like you are "buddying" him.

[Thomith]

Agreeing with someone a couple of times is fine,

thats not what you kept saying. On the same note i could say chrimi is buddying up to you, because he is doing the same thing about you than i about slandaar.

[Om of the Nom]

Also how is not giving examples to make you unable to defend yourself anti-town? If that's true, than you are scum by having a gut read on me which is impossible to defend against.

Note: The above does not mean I am deliberately not giving you examples.

EDIT: Well then Chrimi is scum then isn't he?

[Om of the Nom]

Honestly, Chrimi feels like he is defending me because he genuinely thinks I am town, whereas you feel like you are doing it just for the sake of buddying.

[Thomith]

in the same way then your gut reads on slandaar and kondi makes you scum.
Don't misrep my logic.
gut reads don't count because they are gut, you gave a reason that makes me look scummy but yet gave no example, that is what i mean.
and i am not saying chrimi is scum, i am saying it is wrong to accuse one person of something when others are doing the same/similar things.

p-edit nope. i am only defending slandaar against your meta arguement because your meta fails as you have not done it properly.

[Om of the Nom]

But my point is that not giving examples isn't anti-town. Don't misrep what I'm saying.
Yeah, as I was going to say you also seem to do it for the sake of discrediting me.

How do any of you guys feel about a Thomith wagon?

Also I'm going to have to stop for the night. It's about 11PM now, and I'm really tired (been staying up till 3AM the past few nights).

[Thomith]

but not giving examples gives me nothing to defend against so it is anti-town as you are not giving me chance to prove you wrong while you make me look bad as i cant do anything to prove you wrong and detract the point.

[Slandaar]

EDIT: Because now I'm trying to show you that I act the same way in all of my games, so 10 pages will be enough to meta me.

I have 10 pages on you. You have 10 pages on me.

Why should I read another 10 making it me 20 you 10 when you say that 10 is enough to know my whole meta? I have 10, by your logic, I know your whole meta. Are you telling me I need 20 pages because 10 isnt enough? then why do you have a meta read on me which you have defended for the last 4 pages? You are admitting 10 pages isnt enough but yet say it is.

Contradiction in logic.

[asher1611]

Long post incoming after reading through the thread again. But in case it gets lost in the tl;dr jumble:

VOTE: OM to the NOM
Reason: Not a fan of his trying to throw META at everything. His play has raised a number of red flags for me. Seems more like trying to distract people from the game at hand. Also, cracks under pressure too easily and in strange ways.

FOS: Kass

Reason: Looks like scum that is trying to stay out of the spotlight. His posts have contributed next to nothing to the thread, and he looks like he is trying to slip under the radar.

Will also be watching Kondi. Some posts leave me scratching my head a little bit.

Below the spoiler tag is a lot of quoted posts. They're in chronological order instead of being ordered by user, but hopefully you all have read up with and are familiar enough with the game to follow:

Spoiler:

Slaandar, here's an example: LBJ, Kassadin, and Bag got scumpoints for not answering the important question (#6), and vijay/TheX got major scumpoints for answering it in only one team's viewpoint.

Mafia = Scum Thats what you associate with scum sure technically wolf is scum kind of but ehhhhhh no. town answering as if scum = mafia is completely believable.

Mafia dont have 2 members, its possible a wolf considers themselves scum and answered from their pov that theres 2 scum.

You are the ONLY person who didnt fall for it Kondi if anything it says more about your alignment than anyone elses... (well except x)

You noticed it because you were too cautious when answering your questions, cautious = scumtell.

So this is a strange standard you two seem to be setting: being too cautious about answers makes you scum, yet presumably being too lacadaisacal/not caring about questions makes you town. Reading and paying attention to the rules makes you scum. Not paying attention to the game setup makes you town. That's just bad policy.

That's actually a great point. VOTE: asher

Why do you keep calling asher scum but keep your vote on me?

I Didnt realise mafia dont have a nk... I assumed both did.

It's been mentioned in-thread. Several times, I believe.

Kondi's vote got my attention though in that he limped in and might as well had said "Vote Ash for Sland's reasoning." Hiding behind someone else's reasoning the whole game is very anti-town and pings my scum-dar. I hope you don't make a habit out of it Kondi.

but towns strongest power is their vote and voice right? If you are town why aren't you using this power? If nobody voted, we wouldn't get anywhere, votes apply pressure.

Of course i am not telling you to L-1 everyone because you are "using your vote" but this early people can crumble under pressure, if you suspect someone the most put pressure on them in hopes they crumble or do something to prove you right.

@asher: thomith is right. Why apply pressure later when you can do it now? How else are you gonna find scum?

You both are being a little short sighted here, although that in of itself is probably little more than a null read. Yes, votes apply pressure. But you're confusing short term & long term. There are plenty of ways to apply pressure in later stages of the game, including using what people posted against them, forming associations based on who voted/posted what and where, and by examining the voting record, vote changes, and wagons.

I'm not going to vote unless I feel strongly enough to vote, and I'm not going to be pressured into voting until I'm ready. From what you all are saying, if a town's only power is to vote then why post anything over than VOTE: SOMEGUY and add nothing else. It's the words and context, the development around the words that is used to apply the pressure. Voting by itself only goes so far -- and the last thing I want is someone coming up to me days later saying "LOL why'd you put your vote on X then switch to Y then back to X then to Z who are all scum LOL SCUMREED!".

I'd rather the town know where I stand with my vote.

Manipulative; trying to get people (ash) to vote me then fueling the fire and keeping options open to vote me later while also making sure you were not part of it by staying with your pl vote in case it went bad. It did.

You are trying to get votes on me while not voting me yourself. Manipulative.

This is the post where I started to realize the game Sland was playing. He doesn't merely votehop, as other people assert, but he backs up his points as well. Don't confuse being concise with making a valid argument. He may look belligerent, but it's useful to examine the way some people have responded to his attacks. He's still on my radar, but is hardly my #1 scum candidate.

I want slandaar lynched :

read wat he has done too

And this is the closest I have seen to substance in any of Kass' posts. And it's lacking. Severely lacking. This is essentially saying "I want it just because." That's no good. You don't want to be pinned down to have something used against you later. Otherwise, your posts are empty and pretty much useless to the town. If anything, you're playing like a player who wants to go through the day unnoticed only to pounce and kill someone at night.

Hello wolfie wolfie. You would have my vote if OM wasn't raising so many red flags.

Sorry. I have to say that everytime I read Thomith, I always think he's scum. It's just a feeling I get (from VM's game XD). As a side note though, you flipped town there right? Just for meta-ing.

Advice: don't trust your "gut" when it relies on other games. That's poor use of meta. I'm not a fan of meta because it can easily be manipulated to the scum's advantage. I understand its usefulness, but it's oftentimes distracting players from the game at hand.

What was the point of you bringing up Thom's meta here vijay? It didn't make a lot of sense to me in context and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me out of context. How is Thom's play in THIS GAME making you think he's scum? Backpedaling? Fence sitting? Calling on others to vote? There are reasons to pluck out of the air -- don't just point to another game somewhere else on the forum.

Alright, kinda did a cross between skimming and reading. Also I'm not going to bother answering the RQS questions unless someone asks me to.

Kass is town. He's playing to his useless town meta I remember from Open 376 (except he was also Mason there but w/e).
Shotgun is town.
v2v is town.
Chrimi is town.
LBJ is probably newb-town.
Thomith is town.

I'm kinda wary of kondi and Slandaar right now. This may sound wierd, but they seem more concerned with making cases and being active than I remember from their town meta. Yes, I get this is what town are supposed to be like, but it just feels off to me.
Of course, this could just be me being fail and forgetting half of their town meta, if that's the case, then just disregard this.

The rest (TheX, asher and Bag) are null.

VOTE: kondi
My gut is going crazy on you.

For now my reads are mainly gut, but I will probably end up using more logic as time goes by, as I personally find it hard to make cases on things that have already happened.

I left this post intact because I do not like this post. At all.

You're both throwing in meta immediately PLUS encouraging people to sit by and do nothing. Almost seems like a scum team to me if it wasn't such blatantly bad play. Or maybe the "bad play" is there to hide your tracks. If anything, encouraging "useless town" is incredibly "anti-town." Also, LBJ is "newb-town" based on the nothing he has contributed? Heck, while I'm at it, I'm with others who are not entirely fans of you refusing to say why you think people are town. We're just supposed to take it as fact, and because you're giving us your "full disclosure" we're not supposed to be suspicious of you. That's the game you're playing, right?

Plus mentioning forgetting people's meta? C'mon buddy. If you're going to use it use it, if you're going to assert it then make up excuses on why you've screwed it up, that's just sloppy play. But I guess we're not supposed to suspect you either because you replaced in.

And the last sentence of that post is just terrible. Hard to make cases for things that have already happened? That's EXACTLY what you are supposed to do. That's like saying you can't make a case on someone in Day 2 based on what happened in Day 1. No, instead you just want to meta til the cows come home instead of encouraging people to look at what's going on right in front of them.

I'm not a fan of explaining townreads. Plus it's mainly gut.

But I did manage to explain my scumreads other than gut. Which is what I'm asking you to do. Why am I scum other than gut? Answer my question, no sidetracking.

gut reads are reads you

CAN'T EXPLAIN.

First off, gut reads can be explained at least in so far as you can point to some posts that come to your attention. At least giving some basis of thought to the town helps explain your mindset instead of leaving them guessing or throwing charges of "LOLGUT" at you.

Second, answering a question in a way you don't expect or do not like to hear does not equal side tracking. You have been reacting very poorly to Sland's prodding as well. You hem and haw instead of refuting his points.

Hey Slandaar, here's a test for you.

Go through the first 10 pages of any game I REPLACED INTO (yes this is important), and see if you can find me using gut reads straight off. Also see if you can find me explaining a town gut read.

You'd be surprised how much I don't explain my town gut reads when replacing in. I do it all the time, regardless of alignment.


EDIT: Yeah you can explain gut reads. Normally there is a cause for your gut to go off. It can't just go off at random and nail scum in an instant. THere has to be a base for your suspicion. Gut is just when you can't entirely pinpoint it on one specific fact.

MAJOR red flag here. I do not like players who, at the first sign of pressure, immediately meta themselves. Like an ostrich hiding its head in the sand. A very scummy ostrich.

And I'm not sure why replacing into a game makes a difference or not. What, you're too lazy to read into old posts? Seems to be the case from what you posted above? Or would you rather just wing it because you know who your scum team is and don't care as long as one of them doesn't get lynched?

Self metaing = damning in my eyes. When your only response to holes in your play in this game is to direct people to other games, that's attempting to distract the town from the matter at hand.

Asher is possibly scum buddy with Slandaar.

Interesting that both of you should react in such agility when I post something about prodding you guys.
Welcome to my suspect list.

I don't want to accuse you of playing lazy mafia because you have been contributing and contributing well throughout the game. But both of these things look like you missed some key details and left some key details out of your post.

I would much rather you post why you mean in addition to what you mean. Re: the first post quoted -- you seem to imply that I'm trying to jump to the defense of slandaar in my prior post, but by not saying as much you're free to pencil in your own explanation of this post later. By not staking your reasoning in the post at hand, you're only making noise. By that reasoning, you would be just as much of a potential scum buddy to Slandaar by trying to distance yourself from him while he's taking heat.

I've just grown to understand his play as the game-day has progressed. He's keeping the game moving, which is more than others can say.

As to the second post: did you miss the part where I said I would be V/LA for easter weekend but would be able to read by phone? I haven't been playing lurky lurk mafia. I have just been unable to post. And with the mod's addendum to the prodding rules (three strikes and out) I didn't want to risk getting prodded just because I was on V/LA.

^ what exactly are you talking about?

Slandaar however is not playing very sensibly. Town's only weapon right now is his vote and by shooting scatter shits all over the place with his puny vote, he is getting on my nerves.

This.

Also, Slandaar is either scum, wolf, or is town that is playing very anti-town.

Calling every player he runs into scum and voting in scattershots is terrible, gets no data and only adds to the confusion. Wait, adds to the confusion- isn't that part of scum's objective?

And he's doing a very good job.

So far, he looks like a wonderful lynch candidate.

Chrimi: so far you seem the most "town" of any of the posters I've seen. You make points and back them up, which is good. But think about what you're saying for a second. Is Slandaar's play "anti-town?" What is the town's goal again: to lynch scum. To win the game. Simply throwing votes out at people again and again would be scatter shot voting. That would add confusion or mud to the waters. I've seen Slandaar press people on points he brings up throughout the thread -- and some of them have cracked under the pressure. His scum hunting might not be conventional, but it's not something that is only adding confusion.

And as I said, Slandaar could easily be scum hunting other scum. But for now that helps the town so right now I would rather direct my vote/attention at people who are doing nothing for the town or encouraging the town to ignore the game at hand.

Vote hopping townie for pressure?

Vote hopping isn't applying pressure. Keeping your vote on one person and pressing and pressing is called pressure. Changing your vote every 5 posts is not pressure, it's vote hopping, and doesn't apply much pressure at all.

You've been doing so well. Don't get bogged down in arguing semantics. Look at the posts surrounding the votes -- that's where you'll find the scum. Especially with people creeping in to vote and hoping to be unseen.

Well hey, you can only really pressure one person at a time. Yet Slandaar votes so many people. He can't be pressuring them all now can he?

It is entirely possible to add pressure to more than one person at a time. Voting is not the only way to pressure someone in a game. It might be the most effective way (something about the prospect of going to the gallows has that effect), but it's not the only way.

Vote hopping can be a scumtell depending no the context.
it is a scumtell when you do it during the day with no deadlines nearby and no clear reason.

Obviously you were insinuating this

I see it as scum vote hopping.

as shown here

Therefore you are saying I am scum for vote hopping, I am scum based on meta, yet my meta says votehopping = town.

You cant use meta when it suits you and not when it doesnt. (well you can when you are scum, or try to)

or you want to admit you dont know my meta and just fabricated your read on me again making you scum... (this is the case)

These are the kind of posts that made me realize Slandaar's game. He votes to get people talking, then he pounces on people's inconsistencies. I've learned more from watching how people react to him about potential scum than anyone's answers in the random questions.

So what are you freaking out about?
If you are not linked with Slandaar at all except for the fact that you defended him for Vote hopping, and that's the only link Om can find to frame you guilty, what's the big deal?
Sorry, am I blind here? You seem to be freaking out not because you were framed by Om, but because of the fact that he actually made a link with you and Slandaar.

I'll agree here, Thom did seem strangely defensive. Almost as if he doesn't want the attention on him because he doesn't want to flip scum so early. Between trying to direct me to vote and some wishy washiness, it's enough to where I'll be paying attention to him.

But my point is that not giving examples isn't anti-town. Don't misrep what I'm saying.
Yeah, as I was going to say you also seem to do it for the sake of discrediting me.

How do any of you guys feel about a Thomith wagon?

Also I'm going to have to stop for the night. It's about 11PM now, and I'm really tired (been staying up till 3AM the past few nights).

Your first set of posts raised red flags because you were misusing meta and encouraging poor town play. This post confirms more of my suspicions about you. See, you're already under pressure due to the number of votes on you.

So you propose a Thomith wagon because he's the most recent and most convenient target? What, to draw votes off of you when there is plenty of reason to make a case against you. Why should we bother listening to you for a wagon, and why should we even be forming a wagon one week out from the deadline when there are two players (you and Sland) that already have plenty of votes.

It's not like we're in danger of getting a no lynch at this point. So I can only assume you're proposing the wagon to save your scum hide.

That is my take on the game thus far.

[asher1611]

EBWOP: Self Metaing should read "Defensive Self Metaing = Damning in my eyes."

[Thomith]

asher, when you talk about kass in the spoiler tag you say "hello wolfie wolfie" infering her being a werewolf, when we have two scumgroups in the game, what made you assume werewolf?

[Chrimi]

But my point is that not giving examples isn't anti-town. Don't misrep what I'm saying.
Yeah, as I was going to say you also seem to do it for the sake of discrediting me.

How do any of you guys feel about a Thomith wagon?

Also I'm going to have to stop for the night. It's about 11PM now, and I'm really tired (been staying up till 3AM the past few nights).

Don't let the fact that Thomith is pressuring you effect wether you think he's scum or not, without good reason.

[asher1611]

asher, when you talk about kass in the spoiler tag you say "hello wolfie wolfie" infering her being a werewolf, when we have two scumgroups in the game, what made you assume werewolf?

Partially having fun with the language, and partially the fact that because the mafia has no NK they'll need to be active or do something during the day to push the town towards killing itself. The wolves can lurk in the shadows, kill at night, and still achieve their objective.

So assuming Kass is scum, it's far more likely he a wolf than mafia.

[Slandaar]

Kass is just a pl and this is how he always plays any assumptions to the contrary are wrong.

He is prob scum though based on poe a bit and his jokey turned serious vote.

[Kassadin]

I said my vote is a serious vote. not a joke and yet you continuously say my vote is a joke. you really should die today

[Thomith]

kass stop ignoring me please and answer my question from like when i first replaced into this game which i have asked at least 5 times now.

[vijay2vasandani]

@ Asher: my gut has served me very well in the past, as well as my metaing. I know how to use both. I'm not going to be right all the time, but more often than not.

When I bring up Thomith's meta, it's because he's playing fairly similar to that previous game. The fact that he flipped town in that one gives me a gut town read. Also, POE is another way of scumhunting, and something I've been trying to integrate to my skillset.

Regarding pressure, I believe it's you being short-sighted. Well not short-sighted, but more not considering both sides of the coin. Sure pressure can be imposed in the long term by questioning statements made, but why wait for that when you can pressure now? Furthermore, shouldn't early pressure provide you with more ammunition for late pressure as scum crack and flail?

[Kassadin]

Slandaar and u i think are scum team.
supporting.
ANd my vote stays

[Slandaar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kass

I see no downside to this, at all.

[Chrimi]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kass

I see no downside to this, at all.

OMGUS.

[Chrimi]

Kass is just a pl and this is how he always plays any assumptions to the contrary are wrong.

He is prob scum though based on poe a bit and his jokey turned serious vote.

Translation:
Kass is town because he is playing his town meta.
But he's probably scum because I can't decide if he was joking or not...